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Toronto Affect Still to be felt

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IMO TW joining the game has been very positive. From a profile and marketing perspective especially. Also broadening the revenues of the game as well. New investment is always needed to allow business to grow.

However i don't think we will see the full impact until they reach the top levels of the game. I think the salary cap will have to be reviewed. I think we will see the return of superstars to the sport both from NRL and perhaps even Union. Other clubs will have to follow suit.

We will see new sponsors, new interest from potential new clubs (NY & Ottawa won't be the last) and maybe the start of many more millionaires and billionaires coming into the game.

If they get up this year then for me its come just at the right time for the TV deal negotiations as well.

Also how good will the WCC be if they are in that one day. Then taking that game to Toronto, NY, Dubai, HK, Singapore etc is probably inevitable.

It should also drive up standards in the US & Canadian national teams and give a massive audience for the RLWC.

I for one can't wait

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I want to see Toronto in Super League. It will undoubtedly add media interest and glamour.

It is by no means guaranteed that they will be successful, however.

No doubt they will try to sign eyebrow-raising marquees but I expect the salary cap will stay (if perhaps raised) not least because other clubs won’t allow Super League to be dominated by a Canadian club. 

The lack of homegrown players/development will therefore be a limiting factor, as every single player will have to be bought in. That will put them at a competitive disadvantage to the likes of Saints, Wigan, Leeds and Warrington etc.

Also, the novelty will wear off quite quickly, I guarantee it.

If Canadians continue to show interest beyond the short term, with paying crowds and TV ratings, they may have a successful future. If not, it may be a short-lived novelty act.

I’m not sure which it will be right now.

 

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1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

I want to see Toronto in Super League. It will undoubtedly add media interest and glamour.

It is by no means guaranteed that they will be successful, however.

No doubt they will try to sign eyebrow-raising marquees but I expect the salary cap will stay (if perhaps raised) not least because other clubs won’t allow Super League to be dominated by a Canadian club. 

The lack of homegrown players/development will therefore be a limiting factor, as every single player will have to be bought in. That will put them at a competitive disadvantage to the likes of Saints, Wigan, Leeds and Warrington etc.

Also, the novelty will wear off quite quickly, I guarantee it.

If Canadians continue to show interest beyond the short term, with paying crowds and TV ratings, they may have a successful future. If not, it may be a short-lived novelty act.

I’m not sure which it will be right now.

 

difference for me with TW they know what they need to do to compete in their home market. they make very game an event. that's the difference. i dont think it will wear off. also their marketing is light years ahead and i think they will invest as much in that as players

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2 hours ago, IM2 said:

IMO TW joining the game has been very positive. From a profile and marketing perspective especially. Also broadening the revenues of the game as well. New investment is always needed to allow business to grow.

However i don't think we will see the full impact until they reach the top levels of the game. I think the salary cap will have to be reviewed. I think we will see the return of superstars to the sport both from NRL and perhaps even Union. Other clubs will have to follow suit.

We will see new sponsors, new interest from potential new clubs (NY & Ottawa won't be the last) and maybe the start of many more millionaires and billionaires coming into the game.

If they get up this year then for me its come just at the right time for the TV deal negotiations as well.

Also how good will the WCC be if they are in that one day. Then taking that game to Toronto, NY, Dubai, HK, Singapore etc is probably inevitable.

It should also drive up standards in the US & Canadian national teams and give a massive audience for the RLWC.

I for one can't wait

And then you woke up.

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3 hours ago, IM2 said:

We will see new sponsors, new interest from potential new clubs (NY & Ottawa won't be the last) and maybe the start of many more millionaires and billionaires coming into the game.

 

   While I admire,greatly,what you have done for the sport,and your club,my only concern is why the wealthy in and around London have not been as enthusiastic,despite a London club at a final at Wembley,and your annual event in the city of London?

   Why has Mr Perez demonstrated far more interest,and made a larger carbon footprint on behalf of rugby league,than others,and how has he been so persuasive,so quickly,in completely virgin territory?

   There is more than one rich individual behind Toronto,I was led to believe.Why hasn't the same occurred in the UK? Sole benefactors at some clubs do not don't appear to be long-term,and/or fail to find replacements before they leave.

   I also doubt that Super League clubs will allow the lottery of the fixture list to dictate which clubs face Toronto outside of Canada,while other clubs,later in the season,travel out there.

   


     Born - didn't ask. Dying - didn't argue                                 

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8 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

   While I admire,greatly,what you have done for the sport,and your club,my only concern is why the wealthy in and around London have not been as enthusiastic,despite a London club at a final at Wembley,and your annual event in the city of London?

   Why has Mr Perez demonstrated far more interest,and made a larger carbon footprint on behalf of rugby league,than others,and how has he been so persuasive,so quickly,in completely virgin territory?

   There is more than one rich individual behind Toronto,I was led to believe.Why hasn't the same occurred in the UK? Sole benefactors at some clubs do not don't appear to be long-term,and/or fail to find replacements before they leave.

   I also doubt that Super League clubs will allow the lottery of the fixture list to dictate which clubs face Toronto outside of Canada,while other clubs,later in the season,travel out there.

   

all good points and i think boils down to a lack of ambition imo. my personal situation is dictated by other financial interests notably kids and a new business. 

i think TW have shown you dont have to do things the old way. just being brave enough to finance the travel and not take any central funding shows they have their focus on a much bigger business model. 

lets see

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5 minutes ago, IM2 said:

all good points and i think boils down to a lack of ambition imo. my personal situation is dictated by other financial interests notably kids and a new business. 

i think TW have shown you dont have to do things the old way. just being brave enough to finance the travel and not take any central funding shows they have their focus on a much bigger business model. 

lets see

Helps with bucketfuls of cash to burn 

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34 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

   While I admire,greatly,what you have done for the sport,and your club,my only concern is why the wealthy in and around London have not been as enthusiastic,despite a London club at a final at Wembley,and your annual event in the city of London?

   Why has Mr Perez demonstrated far more interest,and made a larger carbon footprint on behalf of rugby league,than others,and how has he been so persuasive,so quickly,in completely virgin territory?

   There is more than one rich individual behind Toronto,I was led to believe.Why hasn't the same occurred in the UK? Sole benefactors at some clubs do not don't appear to be long-term,and/or fail to find replacements before they leave.

   I also doubt that Super League clubs will allow the lottery of the fixture list to dictate which clubs face Toronto outside of Canada,while other clubs,later in the season,travel out there.

   

Ooohh....I'd love a few more rich sugar daddies at the ETC

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I understand those who fear the negatives of Toronto / North American teams joining the SL comp here in the UK and (Perpignan) currently.

I for one LOVE the vision, challenge, and potential ahead. I believe this expansion is the right thing to do. To open new markets and hey, Rugby League has been a boundary breaker in the past - I truly hope we don't lose momentum with this and really that the RFL leadership team go for this, while doing their due diligence on each application.

Ive had close friends bemoan the 'matchday experience' for little travelling fans, and I can't disagree on that front. However, I am impressed with my own team (Warrington) recently for filling the away end on a few matches recently with more home fans through marketing ploys.....and Toronto have lead the way with this.

If the set up is right - the foreign players WILL come from Canada, and the US. It will change the landscape of the game Internationally. Like any organisation - growth is essential, and RL desperately needs to grow its market. 

Perhaps like you, I look with envious eyes at the RU International competitions. We have to work towards our own International growth. And let it begin to grow in a natural opportunist way - what I mean by that is, the American/Canadians are looking to SuperLeague to establish themselves- that's 'natural' growth opportunity. Its not trying to target somewhere like Wales....and for the record, I'd LOVE  a healthy Crusaders and South Wales team in the comp. The massively unfortunate thing is, we missed that boat several times over ( so desperately disappointing ) when we had the RU converts, and the successful 1995 world cup. Even 2000 when the Welsh did a great job v Australia - as usual RL did not kick on.

'What's in your hands' really strikes me. And there is some incredible opportunity head for the RFL - but they need to focus and get it right - not necessarily for an immediate impact, but to think strategically for the next 5-10 years. (Thats short term vision!)

Catalans - great example of  a successful 'franchise team' - it was right for it's time. But they still rely on English/Southern Hemisphere players in pivotal roles, and one team cannot bolster the French national team.

Toulouse - SuperLeague - Not the RFL - Need a vision for the future - to include a 2nd French team.

 - could Super League adapt salary cap (like they have done with marquee players) that if they have a French player in their squad who represents France (or wales, Ireland, Scotland - HOMEGROWN, not qualification through residency or grandparents) and they discount on the salary cap and play regular first team football? Could this help home nations growth for future GB tours?

North American Teams - Toronto, Ottawa, New York....

Stop getting overly pessimistic on 'no home grown players'  - it's going to take a generation. Think beyond what we see. As long as due diligence ensures they have an excellent plan to produce players of home grown decent then i for one would be happy.

 

 

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I'm not an anti-expansionist and I can see many positives that TWP have brought to the game in terms of exposure. But as stated in an earlier post, I'm not sure how the problem of being unable to play league games at home for half of the season is going to be resolved in the short/medium term, or if indeed it could be resolved, nor whether the current scenario would be tolerated in SL.

It is not just a problem for the league games either, surely it will not help them to produce homegrown players. Any potential homegrown player with a young family, with aspirations of playing the game professionally is going to have a tough choice to make, as they will be required to live abroad for half a season every year. It isn't even like they could just find a covered ground/Dome stadium to resolve the issue either. Even if they could find one for TWP,  I would be very surprised if it could be done for every team in a Canadian league, especially at an junior/amateur/feeder level which would be required to produce home grown talent.

Also how do the season tickets work for TWP given half of the home fixtures are played on the other side of the Atlantic? I realise most sports now get the majority of their income from TV deals, but it is still a lot of lost revenue, there is a reason gate increases are being targeted by the RFL and SL regarding future funding.

Edited by DOGFATHER
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1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

I'm not an anti-expansionist and I can see many positives that TWP have brought to the game in terms of exposure. But as stated in an earlier post, I'm not sure how the problem of being unable to play league games at home for half of the season is going to be resolved in the short/medium term, or if indeed it could be resolved, nor whether the current scenario would be tolerated in SL.

It is not just a problem for the league games either, surely it will not help them to produce homegrown players. Any potential homegrown player with a young family, with aspirations of playing the game professionally is going to have a tough choice to make, as they will be required to live abroad for half a season every year. It isn't even like they could just find a covered ground/Dome stadium to resolve the issue either. Even if they could find one for TWP,  I would be very surprised if it could be done for every team in a Canadian league, especially at an junior/amateur/feeder level which would be required to produce home grown talent.

Also how do the season tickets work for TWP given half of the home fixtures are played on the other side of the Atlantic? I realise most sports now get the majority of their income from TV deals, but it is still a lot of lost revenue, there is a reason gate increases are being targeted by the RFL and SL regarding future funding.

No need for any underlying leagues or structures to happen an the same time as SL season. They can play April - November like every other outdoor sport. 

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2 hours ago, DOGFATHER said:

I'm not an anti-expansionist and I can see many positives that TWP have brought to the game in terms of exposure. But as stated in an earlier post, I'm not sure how the problem of being unable to play league games at home for half of the season is going to be resolved in the short/medium term, or if indeed it could be resolved, nor whether the current scenario would be tolerated in SL.

It is not just a problem for the league games either, surely it will not help them to produce homegrown players. Any potential homegrown player with a young family, with aspirations of playing the game professionally is going to have a tough choice to make, as they will be required to live abroad for half a season every year. It isn't even like they could just find a covered ground/Dome stadium to resolve the issue either. Even if they could find one for TWP,  I would be very surprised if it could be done for every team in a Canadian league, especially at an junior/amateur/feeder level which would be required to produce home grown talent.

Also how do the season tickets work for TWP given half of the home fixtures are played on the other side of the Atlantic? I realise most sports now get the majority of their income from TV deals, but it is still a lot of lost revenue, there is a reason gate increases are being targeted by the RFL and SL regarding future funding.

Simple as can be, let them play their away games first and then all their home games in a block. It is an easy solution.  It's only the RFL making it a problem.

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3 hours ago, ojx said:

Simple as can be, let them play their away games first and then all their home games in a block. It is an easy solution.  It's only the RFL making it a problem.

No it isn't , as Dogcatcher has eluded to there have been domestic issuee for some players being asked to live in the UK for 6 months and then 6 months in Canada 

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5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

No it isn't , as Dogcatcher has eluded to there have been domestic issuee for some players being asked to live in the UK for 6 months and then 6 months in Canada 

Sounds great to me. Would jump at the chance if I was  able to.

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2 minutes ago, frank said:

Sounds great to me. Would jump at the chance if I was  able to.

So you don't get on with your wife and kids I take it ?

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24 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

No it isn't , as Dogcatcher has eluded to there have been domestic issuee for some players being asked to live in the UK for 6 months and then 6 months in Canada 

It's not 6 months though - it's probably 4 months - January to end of April and I'm sure at SL level the clubs would pay for the families to comeover for a few weeks. The other games would be in blocks later. Plenty of lads with families have had to work away for long periods - armed forces, construction, oil rigs etc.

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"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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4 hours ago, ojx said:

Simple as can be, let them play their away games first and then all their home games in a block. It is an easy solution.  It's only the RFL making it a problem.

It isn't really fair though is it? The teams travelling to Toronto, have the issue of jet lag as well as several hours travelling for away games. This will not affect Toronto, if they are allowed to play all of there home games in a block at the end of the season.

It must be a big advantage. I know they are paying for the flights for opposing teams, but lots of teams last season were flown to Edinburgh or Glasgow, where the flights were cheapest. Whichever way you cut it, it is a hell of journey to get to Scotland for most teams, especially when there is 10 hour flight to contend with before, or after it.   

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15 hours ago, IM2 said:

IMO TW joining the game has been very positive. From a profile and marketing perspective especially. Also broadening the revenues of the game as well. New investment is always needed to allow business to grow.

However i don't think we will see the full impact until they reach the top levels of the game. I think the salary cap will have to be reviewed. I think we will see the return of superstars to the sport both from NRL and perhaps even Union. Other clubs will have to follow suit.

We will see new sponsors, new interest from potential new clubs (NY & Ottawa won't be the last) and maybe the start of many more millionaires and billionaires coming into the game.

If they get up this year then for me its come just at the right time for the TV deal negotiations as well.

What are you basing this opinion piece on?

TWP were asked to develop players and find a paying TV deal and they agreed to do this and failed on both. What evidence do you have they are great marketeers? Not the dodgy crowd announcements and the free tickets thing?

How can they reach the top of the game when Superleague call them an Australian owned English team in Canadian shirts?  Superleague have said that Toulouse are more of a real club and if anyone should be invited into SL as guests it will probably be them.

So if Ottawa and NY follow TWP and these "won't be the last" then after shipping 90 players from here to there do we ship another 90 out to stock Boston, Montreal and Vancouver? that will be 180 players?  Do we relegate the current bottom six clubs Leeds, Wigan, London,HKR. Huddersfield, and Salford to release these players to go play in America.

Because as even Ottawa said  it would be a generation before they produce any players. But do you even believe that because Canada RL are bereft of any staffing or infrastructure to create a junior ARL, plus like in the rest of England beyond the M62 the kids all play Rugby Union.

As for the TV negotiations SKY don't want North American clubs. You can't sell a SKY dish to someone in Pensylvania.

Just one last check I think? - oh yes do you really believe that in time we will be buying the best from Union and NRL? If you do then I know where you get this rubbish from and It's Perez's second great speech about how he is going to save RL and achieve world domination. 

How did he get on doing this with Canada RL and then with his his first pro club? Seems to me the Messiah hasn't done diddly squat in many years of trying??

6 hours ago, DOGFATHER said:

I'm not an anti-expansionist and I can see many positives that TWP have brought to the game in terms of exposure.

But as stated in an earlier post, I'm not sure how the problem of being unable to play league games at home for half of the season is going to be resolved in the short/medium term, or if indeed it could be resolved, nor whether the current scenario would be tolerated in SL.

It is not just a problem for the league games either, surely it will not help them to produce homegrown players. Any potential homegrown player with a young family, with aspirations of playing the game professionally is going to have a tough choice to make, as they will be required to live abroad for half a season every year. It isn't even like they could just find a covered ground/Dome stadium to resolve the issue either. Even if they could find one for TWP,  I would be very surprised if it could be done for every team in a Canadian league, especially at an junior/amateur/feeder level which would be required to produce home grown talent.

Thank heavens for this reply. Not everyone has their head in the clouds however what "positives" have they brought? In terms of "exposure" all is OK now but when they pack it in it will bring bad publicity in spades to us.

The early season weather problem is to be resolved by Superleague not letting them in as McManus says they won't change the SL fixture list for one phoney club.

As for "junior/amateur/feeder level which would be required" The resurrected Canada RL have been around a decade and are simply unable to even set anything up never mind waiting a couple of generations for the first few kids to come through - that's if any talented kids do come through?  Meanwhile Academies are closed at all the English clubs relegated to the Championship.

And if that happened there'd be no RL here as SKY would pull out and the game would die and that is according to 99% of people on here when we once discussed it in a serious thread not a fantasy one.

I thought April 1st. had come round when I read that post above!!! That was 3 weeks ago😂

Edited by The Parksider
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1 minute ago, tim2 said:

It's not 6 months though - it's probably 4 months - January to end of April and I'm sure at SL level the clubs would pay for the families to comeover for a few weeks. The other games would be in blocks later. Plenty of lads with families have had to work away for long periods - armed forces, construction, oil rigs etc.

That's the point you are missing , where do you base your squad ? , Toronto are based in the UK , in Manchester , as that's where the players live , they spend from the end of the season , October until June based in Manchester , then from June through till October in Canada as that's when they have their home run of games , fine for a single bloke , not really great for family's , probably even less so for ' antip ' family's moving to the UK 

As I put there have been issues , what we might well see is a very large turnover of players year from year , but that is and will be their problem 

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Do you know what it is? Positivity. Look around this thread or even on the terraces and all you hear is doom and gloom. As you see already the media and other sports clubs have taken TW under their wing, and why not?? Over here its a different story.

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1 minute ago, Mumby Magic said:

Do you know what it is? Positivity. Look around this thread or even on the terraces and all you hear is doom and gloom. As you see already the media and other sports clubs have taken TW under their wing, and why not?? Over here its a different story.

What difference do other sports clubs opinions make ? , Or indeed media outlets that have little to no interest in the sport normally , this is the reality of the situation , and this isn't a criticism , just pointing out a couple of facts 

Toronto Wolf Pack are a RL team based in Manchester England , their players live in Wigan,Leigh and Warrington , they train in the UK , they fly out to Toronto about 10 times a year to play a game then fly back 

These are all genuine facts , do other NA teams work in this way ? 

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