Hull FC turn down massive offer for Jake Connor...

[Ullman]

19 hours ago, MZH said:

A couple of posts on here (and it's been mentioned elsewhere too) have suggested that Hull are in a bit of financial hardship.

Well they have just announced profits for 2018 of £106,000. Not really sure where that chat came from.

I don't know about you but I'm beginning to get a sneaking suspicion that there might be people online who just make stuff up.

[Ullman]

41 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

That’s not how it works.   We start a thread, change subject, then lock it when it gets out of hand

It's known as the Jake Connor Effect.

[Rhino369]

Jake Connor is staying at Hull FC , Leeds want a halfback and are actively trying to sign a quality new player. What are latest rumours, Hastings  , Maloney or maybe Aiden Sezer who wants to leave Canberra?

[Rupert Prince]

5 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Isn’t this a thread about Jake Connor?

Not any more.

To clarify the history  of S Tomkins... He actually first played for first team in 2008 and his potential was shown when he scored 5 tries on his debut...  admittedly against Whitehaven. 

It was not Tomkins fault that he did not play any earlier or more often later. You cannot tell how good someone is if they are not selected! 

Tomkins was born in Milton Keynes... just thought I would add that in.

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

You clearly aren't. Tomkins at 19 hadn't won any of the awards you mentioned and had barely made any appearances and was playing a different position. 

At the start of the 2009 season Tomkins had 1 appearance to his name. At this point in the season he wasnt in the first team. At this point in his career Tomkins was a stand off with less than 10 SL appearances to his name. 

At this stage in the year Walker has 3 years experience at fullback, including a grand final win. Tomkins has 0. 

At the point he is now Walker is far ahead of where Tomkins was A) as a fullback and B) as a player because of the reasons given.

You have identified the problem with your argument, we do not know how good Walker will be in the future and how much he will improve. Is it inconceivable that over the next 5/6 months Leeds improve and Walker goes on a good run of form and wins a dream team nomination and young player awards? Of course not. If Walker improves at the same rate Tomkins did over the next 4 or 5 years will he be in England squads and dream team? Certainly. 

If as hardaker did between the ages of 20 and 24 Walker improves his strength and positional play dramatically will he be better than hardaker? Definitely. 

At this point right now, Walker is far ahead of where Tomkins and hardaker were. Will he improve as they did between 10 and 24/25? Who knows maybe much more, maybe much less but the fact remains that at this point in their careers it would be years before either Hardaker or Tomkins were first choice fullback. Walker is and has been. He has been a first team regular for 3 years at full back compared to two players who were 22,23 before they reached that point. 

Dear ohh dear why do you keep talking about the time prior to the 2009 season and the 2019 season to answer the question? You also conveniently deviate from my original statement relating to the ability of Tomkins at 19 and 20 years of age compared to Walker.

Let's just keep it on point. 2009 season Tomkins v 2019 Walker. Who is the better player.... that is the original point.

Walker, in the "three seasons" you keep mentioning, has played less than 40 SL games but you're making out like he's played 80 or 90. He had a bit part at the end of 17 and played half of 18. 

TBH this is irrelevant to my statement that the Tomkins of the 2009 season is better than the Walker of 2019.

You referred to 'at this point in the season/career' that Walker has 3 years experience (which amounts to <40 SL games) and Tomkins just 10 games.

If you literally want to drill down to today, in both their careers, Walker has played 39 SL games and Tomkins exactly 10.

Having played just 11 Super League games though, he was selected in the England squad for the June international against France.....

That should go some way to demonstrate that at the same age as Walker he was a better player.

Tomkins was spectacular right out of the box, almost the finished article, was quickly Wigans first choice 6 along with England's too.

You are making a huge mistake of confusing experience with ability.

I only surrendered the Hardaker point because it cannot be proved either way, it's not a 'problem with my argument' it's an opinion I have about the prospect of Walker progressing. We don't have a crystal ball so we just don't know. 

The reference to Tomkins is far easier to demonstrate though. 

Why don't you start a poll, don't load the dice, just ask simply. 2009 Tomkins or 2019 Walker, who is the best player?

Tomkins is disliked by almost everyone and yet I suspect it will be somewhat of a landslide in his favour.

Walker might improve to be the best ever player to have picked up a ball but right now, the 39 game SL veteran is a country mile behind the 11 game newbie of Tomkins 2009.

I wonder if you were not watching the game 10 years ago and didn't see him first hand?

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Jack Walker has played a fraction under 4 times as many games as Tomkins has, including a grand final.

At this stage of his career Tomkins was dropped for Tim Smith, he wasn't selected for the England squad in the June international against france… The full back was Shaun Briscoe, the halves Danny McGuire and Richie Myler. I have to wonder If you were not watching the game 10 years ago and didn't see him first hand. Because he looks nothing like Danny McGuire or Richie Myler and Shaun Briscoe's nose is pretty recognisable.

At this stage Tomkins wasn't a first team player, wasn't a regular, had little experience and was by no means spectacular. Tomkins at this stage in his career was dropped for Tim Smith and playing off the bench when he could get a game.  He was, as Walker is, a player with potential. He had however far less experience and far less success. What he went on to do is very good. What Walker will go on to do is unknown. 

It can easily be proved either way. Walker is a far better fullback than Hardaker was at his age. Its not even a question. Hardaker was a championship winger, Walker is a super league winning fullback. 

Why don't we ask the actual question. Walker now or Tomkins at the same stage of his career at fullback. A super League winning fullback with 3 years experience behind him, or a stand off with 10 SL appearances behind him who is about to be dropped for Tim Smith for a month before returning off the bench?

---

England squad to play France in Paris on 13 June:

Atkins (Wakefield), S Burgess (Bradford), Briscoe (Hull KR), Clubb (Harlequins), Crabtree (Huddersfield), Fox (Hull KR), Graham (St Helens), Hall (Leeds), Hock (Wigan), McGuire (Leeds), Moore (Huddersfield), Morley (Warrington), Myler (Salford), O'Loughlin (Wigan), Peacock (Leeds, captain), Roby (St Helens), Shenton (Castleford), Tomkins (Wigan), Westwood (Warrington).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/8080206.stm

Ooops!

It's late, maybe you can quickly edit your post and people won't notice!

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

7 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I think Walker has the potential to be a much more rounded player who will operate at a world class level for longer.....

You must be either his dad or his agent!

Is he in the England Performance Squad yet?

[GUBRATS]

It is impossible to compare players from different era's playing for different teams , anybody trying to do so is stupid 

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

10 hours ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

Having played just 11 Super League games though, he was selected in the England squad for the June international against France....

 

9 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

........ he wasn't selected for the England squad in the June international against france…

Sarcasm is for winners Scotchy.

He was picked for the SQUAD wasn't he!?

The SQUAD I posted and the link to the BBC is accurate isn't it!?

So after just 11 SL games, he had impressed the international coaches sufficiently that they selected him for the SQUAD didn't they!?

 

9 hours ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

Is he in the England Performance Squad yet?

 

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

He is, played for the knights last year. I have to wonder if you were not watching the game 7months ago and didn't see him first hand. 

I've got to give it to you, you keep on swinging!

That's not the England Performance Squad is it!?

The England Performance Squad is for the blokes that have developed sufficiently to represent England. You know, like Sam Tomkins!

The England KNIGHTS Performance Squad is what you now choose to refer to and which I made ZERO reference.

The Knights squad is for those that show potential but still need to be developed. This is a feeder system to bring on those that are not quite international standard in the hope they will one day reach that level. You know, like Jack flippin' Walker!

Stop rewriting history, twisting words or downright making deliberate misrepresentations.

I think if someone asked you if you were a pilot you would say yes because Santa gave you a drone for Christmas!

I feel I have now demonstrated that at the age of 19/20 (which was my original statement) Tomkins was a better player than Walker.

I accept that of course this is subjective but feel confident in my opinion especially considering the international selections appear to corroborate it.

I sincerely hope, as you firmly believe, that Walker progresses to "operate at a world class level for longer" than Tomkins as that would be of a huge advantage to Leeds and England.

Now let's just agree to disagree and hope your predictions come true!

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

It is impossible to compare players from different era's playing for different teams , anybody trying to do so is stupid 

Don't say that too loud, John Drake is asking us to nominate the best forwards of the last 24 years!

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

On 26/04/2019 at 16:57, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

He isn't nearly as good as Tomkins was at 19 or 20.....

For gods sake. That is my original statement which all this stems from.

So, no more grey areas or twisting history PLEASE.

Tomkins started the 2009 season as a 19 year old and finished it as a 20 year old.

It is clear then that the form Tomkins demonstrated in 2009 is what we should compare against and what I intended back in my post of the 26th April.

This is the player I am comparing Jack Walker to. If you were not sure before, I hope I have cleared this up for you.

Please don't become confused about this. It's quite fundamental.

With me so far?

The form that Tomkins displayed during this period, which if you've lost me, is the 2009 season, was epic.

It was so good, that after only 11 SL games, he was selected for the international SQUAD to face France in June.

You seem to deny this even faced with the BBC article I posted earlier.

He was in the squad, but didn't make the 17 come game day. Nevertheless some achievement for an 11 game newbie right!?

Does that not tell you something? It tells me he started his career on fire and was extremely well regarded.

The form was so spectacular that he had everyone purring and by the end of the 2009 season he was the Young Player of the Year, first choice halfback for Wigan & England and played three games in the 4 Nations.

How on gods earth is Walker even close to this level of form?

It doesn't matter that he arrived earlier. It doesn't matter that he may develop into the best player ever to have lived.

The comparison I made was Walker now versus 2009 Tomkins. Scroll back up to check if I've lost you.

2009 Tomkins is YPotY and a full England International.

Walker is neither of those and regularly has his own fans suggesting he should be rested for defensive liabilities.

If you're going to pass comment again make sure you please accept that MY comparison which YOU commented on is 2009 Tomkins verses current Walker.

No point is telling me about the non existent 2008 Tomkins, that he started out as a halfback (position played no part in my statement) or that the future Walker is likely to dominate the world scene for longer yadda yadda yadda. 

 

[Old Frightful]

But what about Jake Connor?

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

7 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

But what about Jake Connor?

Please let's talk about him!

[Marty Funkhouser]

22 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Jack Walker has played a fraction under 4 times as many games as Tomkins has, including a grand final.

At this stage of his career Tomkins was dropped for Tim Smith, he wasn't selected for the England squad in the June international against france… The full back was Shaun Briscoe, the halves Danny McGuire and Richie Myler. I have to wonder If you were not watching the game 10 years ago and didn't see him first hand. Because he looks nothing like Danny McGuire or Richie Myler and Shaun Briscoe's nose is pretty recognisable.

At this stage Tomkins wasn't a first team player, wasn't a regular, had little experience and was by no means spectacular. Tomkins at this stage in his career was dropped for Tim Smith and playing off the bench when he could get a game.  He was, as Walker is, a player with potential. He had however far less experience and far less success. What he went on to do is very good. What Walker will go on to do is unknown. 

It can easily be proved either way. Walker is a far better fullback than Hardaker was at his age. Its not even a question. Hardaker was a championship winger, Walker is a super league winning fullback. 

Why don't we ask the actual question. Walker now or Tomkins at the same stage of his career at fullback. A super League winning fullback with 3 years experience behind him, or a stand off with 10 SL appearances behind him who is about to be dropped for Tim Smith for a month before returning off the bench?

I am trying to think of a more delusional human being than Scotchy but I have failed...7000 posts and knows virtually zero about professional Rugby League in any respect... 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

I am trying to think of a more delusional human being than Scotchy but I have failed...7000 posts and knows virtually zero about professional Rugby League in any respect... 

The subject or which side of it is irrelivant , it's all about boring you into submission 

[Lowdesert]

10 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

I am trying to think of a more delusional human being than Scotchy but I have failed...7000 posts and knows virtually zero about professional Rugby League in any respect... 

Just hang in there.  Eventually he will agree with you and everyone’s happy

[Cheshire Setter]

On 02/05/2019 at 22:45, Rupert Prince said:

Tomkins was born in Milton Keynes... just thought I would add that in.

Wasn’t he born in Warrington but went to live in Milton Keynes as a child? 

Anyway, back on topic.   Seems from this thread Hull have turned down a massive offer for some Jacksam Tomkins-Walker guy.   Discuss.

[ELBOWSEYE]

8 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Wasn’t he born in Warrington but went to live in Milton Keynes as a child? 

Anyway, back on topic.   Seems from this thread Hull have turned down a massive offer some Jacksam Tomkins-Walker guy.   Discuss.

No joel was born in bewsey Sam was born in Milton Keynes. Both his parents were season ticket holders and took their kids to wire games. 

[Rupert Prince]

6 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Wasn’t he born in Warrington but went to live in Milton Keynes as a child? 

Anyway, back on topic.   Seems from this thread Hull have turned down a massive offer some Jacksam Tomkins-Walker guy.   Discuss.

Listen... never mind what you say, If it's in Wikipedia it must be true....!!!!!

[Roy Boy]

15 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Wasn’t he born in Warrington but went to live in Milton Keynes as a child? 

Anyway, back on topic.   Seems from this thread Hull have turned down a massive offer for some Young Jacksam Tomkins-Embrionic Walker guy.   Discuss.

Edited for accuracy

[Cheshire Setter]

6 minutes ago, Roy Boy said:

Edited for accuracy

All I know is, thank god Ray French doesn’t have to pronounce that now he’s retired...

[Wellsy4HullFC]

22 hours ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

For gods sake. That is my original statement which all this stems from.

So, no more grey areas or twisting history PLEASE.

Tomkins started the 2009 season as a 19 year old and finished it as a 20 year old.

It is clear then that the form Tomkins demonstrated in 2009 is what we should compare against and what I intended back in my post of the 26th April.

This is the player I am comparing Jack Walker to. If you were not sure before, I hope I have cleared this up for you.

Please don't become confused about this. It's quite fundamental.

With me so far?

The form that Tomkins displayed during this period, which if you've lost me, is the 2009 season, was epic.

It was so good, that after only 11 SL games, he was selected for the international SQUAD to face France in June.

You seem to deny this even faced with the BBC article I posted earlier.

He was in the squad, but didn't make the 17 come game day. Nevertheless some achievement for an 11 game newbie right!?

Does that not tell you something? It tells me he started his career on fire and was extremely well regarded.

The form was so spectacular that he had everyone purring and by the end of the 2009 season he was the Young Player of the Year, first choice halfback for Wigan & England and played three games in the 4 Nations.

How on gods earth is Walker even close to this level of form?

It doesn't matter that he arrived earlier. It doesn't matter that he may develop into the best player ever to have lived.

The comparison I made was Walker now versus 2009 Tomkins. Scroll back up to check if I've lost you.

2009 Tomkins is YPotY and a full England International.

Walker is neither of those and regularly has his own fans suggesting he should be rested for defensive liabilities.

If you're going to pass comment again make sure you please accept that MY comparison which YOU commented on is 2009 Tomkins verses current Walker.

No point is telling me about the non existent 2008 Tomkins, that he started out as a halfback (position played no part in my statement) or that the future Walker is likely to dominate the world scene for longer yadda yadda yadda. 

 

*EDIT - I meant to quote scotchy here, my apologies!

Is it really fair to judge a player on the team he is playing in rather than his individual achievements? Yes, he was selected in a team that won the Grand Final, which is a big achievement, but it doesn't mean he's a better player than someone who didn't.

I think it wasn't quite as difficult to replace an unproven youngster like Ash Goulding at full back (who was shoehorned in as a replacement for the disgraced Zak Hardaker) as it was for Tomkins to replace a proven veteran like Tim Smith. You have a choice between a veteran and a youngster or a choice between 2 youngsters. They also played different positions which I guess didn't help in the comparisons. And despite playing in the Grand Final in 2017, wasn't even given the number 1 shirt for 2018.

The fact is though, Tomkins was selected in the initial squad to face France at 19 and later went on to represent England in the 4N, including the final. He was the best half back we had to offer by the end of the season and one of the best players altogether in the impact he made. I don't think Walker will be considered in the same light by season's end personally. All Walker has for him is more SL experience at this stage, but that doesn't make him better.

It's a no contest for me. Tomkins was a far better player and made for more impact at the same age.

But back to Jake Connor... He had a shocker yesterday and got sinbinned for mouthing off again. Still have that £0.5m offer going?...

[Ullman]

On 04/05/2019 at 09:46, Wellsy4HullFC said:

But back to Jake Connor... He had a shocker yesterday and got sinbinned for mouthing off again. Still have that £0.5m offer going?...

I'm guessing he expressed rather too forcefully what we were all thinking about Greg Bird's pathetic dying swan act.

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, Ullman said:

I'm guessing he expressed rather too forcefully what we were all thinking about Greg Bird's pathetic dying swan act.

Was it talking or the actual tackle?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Was it talking or the actual tackle?

It was Minichiello who made the tackle.