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Normalising Obesity


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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

But this isnt about that. In fact the thread was started the other way, with a lady being positive about it. But soon enough the nasty haters were on hand to try and shame fat people.

The thread was triggered by a woman stating she shouldn't be shamed.

I was only replying to points from other posters.

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6 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

I was only replying to points from other posters.

Ok. I just didnt see anything from John which talked about people bleating about being fat and blaming others.

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On 09/07/2019 at 21:25, BryanC said:

My last post on this subject as I'm finding the responses tedious, whiny and pathetic.

1) I've never had real weight issues because most of the time I don't overeat.

2) No I haven't. I generally find that most takeaways have choices that aren't too fattening and also takeaway food isn't an everyday thing, it's an occasional treat. (And by the way, poppadums, onion bhajis, curry, rice and naan bread at one go is just asking for it).

3) Yes, I have quit beer and gone on to either scotch or gin.I have also had to cut out pork scratchings due to the dental bills.

4) I think about every weekday meal and because I do, I don't have to worry too much about the weekends. 

For the final time.

It's all down to YOU and until you accept that and take responsibility (which many on here obviously can't), then you're wasting your time. You will always be fat.

Good evening.

Translation: I want to make my offensive, fact-free posts without having to actually deal with things like evidence and facts.

The reality of the fact is it is a far more complicated issue than many (especially people without weight issues) understand both on an individual and a societal level. At a societal level, telling people to take responsibility is never going to sort anything. You cannot square the circle that nobody wants to be fat, but people are becoming fat in ever increasing numbers.

For most people I meet, my weight is not something that they would think twice about. I weigh less than 13 stone and go out running a few times a week. However, I'm still overweight and there are people that would judge me about my weight. What this relatively normal weight masks is that it is hard for me to even maintain this weight; I put on weight very easily. Outside my meals, I eat very little and rarely eat out or have a takeaway. If I had a diet that included pork scratchings I'd be massive!

This comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding: not everybody puts weight on the same. This to me is self-evidently true. My mum and my wife are a similar weight and I've lived with both for long periods; my mum eats far less than my wife does, who probably eats more than I do. I think most people instinctively know this but many people who have never struggled with their weight assume it is untrue. Because they don't believe this, they then make the inaccurate assumption that fat people must be people who eat worse than they do and therefore that they can judge them for their weight.

I think that once somebody has been more than a little overweight, then only very rarely are they not in a cycle that is extremely difficult to get out of. 

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Anyway, back to the original point of the thread, I'm conflicted about how we should deal with obesity. 

It is clearly a health issue and I am concerned that if it is normalised and loses any of its stigma, that people will lose much of the impetus to lose weight. The more it is acceptable and even celebrated, the more people will choose to stay that way.

That said, we should never lose sight of the fact that obese people are still human beings. As I've said before, it can be seen as this over-riding character flaw. Just recently, I've caught myself on doing this. I'm a teacher and recently my school took on a new teaching assistant who is extremely large to the point she must struggle to move around. As she didn't work with me, I did make a negative judgement about her based largely on the one thing that I could see about her.

More recently, she was moved to work nearer to me and unsurprisingly I had got her all wrong and we actually get on really well. This is clearly a problem and I feel embarrassed by it. We can't have a situation where people are treated as second class citizens because of one character flaw. 

It's wrong. 

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21 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Anyway, back to the original point of the thread, I'm conflicted about how we should deal with obesity. 

It is clearly a health issue and I am concerned that if it is normalised and loses any of its stigma, that people will lose much of the impetus to lose weight. The more it is acceptable and even celebrated, the more people will choose to stay that way.

That said, we should never lose sight of the fact that obese people are still human beings. As I've said before, it can be seen as this over-riding character flaw. Just recently, I've caught myself on doing this. I'm a teacher and recently my school took on a new teaching assistant who is extremely large to the point she must struggle to move around. As she didn't work with me, I did make a negative judgement about her based largely on the one thing that I could see about her.

More recently, she was moved to work nearer to me and unsurprisingly I had got her all wrong and we actually get on really well. This is clearly a problem and I feel embarrassed by it. We can't have a situation where people are treated as second class citizens because of one character flaw. 

It's wrong. 

The conflict is perhaps because it is a health issue and should be treated like other complex health issues. It is of course up to the individual to do what they can, but society is set up on the assumption that people needed to be advised helped etc. People who think they have not been helped dramatically along the way, so they are healthy through no more than their own efforts are stupid.

That approach is separate from the moralising and self-righteousness of many. And that is the second issue. We are social creatues. No one should be stigmatised for bad health, that is counter productive. So we have the issue of combating the health issue and combatting the stigma.

It is bad for obseity, it is far worse for people with serious mental health issues.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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Something i have been thinking about but have not seen mentioned anywhere

If you eat a pure sugar sweet containing 100 calories than all those calories are going to go into your body and are available for use

If you eat 100 calories worth of multigrain bread containing whole seeds at least a proportion of that bread (particularity the seeds) will travel through your gut and exit you. As dung has a calorific value (many parts of the world it is a principle fuel source) not all of the 100 calories can have been absorbed by the body

Therefore the simple equation that Calories burnt < calories eaten means weight gain must in fact be Calories burnt < calories Eaten - minus calories expelled means weight gain.

Now I know people talk about high and low GI diets but that is to do with the speed of release of calories by the food not the total % of the calories that will be taken up[ by the body. Maybe just using calories is too crude and we need some education or measure on what % will be absorbed by the body - maybe call it "effective calories", that might make people see that all calories are not equal and the 20 calories in a single starburst are not the same as the 20 calories in 25g of drained unsweetened sweetcorn (picking something that can "pass through" fairly unaltered)

 

Does anyone know anything on this really or is it just me having a brain fart

 

Edit: I did find an article about raised calorific value of poo in cystic fibrosis sufferers which gives some headline figures of average childrens poo containing 3.5% of the energy input to the body so it is not insignificant amounts - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1793018/

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15 hours ago, SSoutherner said:

Something i have been thinking about but have not seen mentioned anywhere

If you eat a pure sugar sweet containing 100 calories than all those calories are going to go into your body and are available for use

If you eat 100 calories worth of multigrain bread containing whole seeds at least a proportion of that bread (particularity the seeds) will travel through your gut and exit you. As dung has a calorific value (many parts of the world it is a principle fuel source) not all of the 100 calories can have been absorbed by the body

Therefore the simple equation that Calories burnt < calories eaten means weight gain must in fact be Calories burnt < calories Eaten - minus calories expelled means weight gain.

Now I know people talk about high and low GI diets but that is to do with the speed of release of calories by the food not the total % of the calories that will be taken up[ by the body. Maybe just using calories is too crude and we need some education or measure on what % will be absorbed by the body - maybe call it "effective calories", that might make people see that all calories are not equal and the 20 calories in a single starburst are not the same as the 20 calories in 25g of drained unsweetened sweetcorn (picking something that can "pass through" fairly unaltered)

 

Does anyone know anything on this really or is it just me having a brain fart

 

Edit: I did find an article about raised calorific value of poo in cystic fibrosis sufferers which gives some headline figures of average childrens poo containing 3.5% of the energy input to the body so it is not insignificant amounts - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1793018/

Look up Giles Yeo, he writes all about it in his latest book.  He compares sugar to sweet corn.

With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Just now, Bedford Roughyed said:

Look up Giles Yeo, he writes all about it in his latest book.  He compares sugar to sweet corn.

He also talks about how some foods have increased calorific value after cooking.   

With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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1 minute ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

that might make people see that all calories are not equal and the 20 calories in a single starburst are not the same as the 20 calories in 25g of drained unsweetened sweetcorn 

But if you record it at 20 calories, and eat to a set limit, then the fact its less won't do you any harm?

With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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5 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

He also talks about how some foods have increased calorific value after cooking.   

When food is short, veg is always boiled longer, to release more calories. VItamins tend to be less important in such circumstances. Then, when everyone has central heating and plenty of food, they think they prefer their veg lightly boiled as they are more sophisitcated.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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6 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

When food is short, veg is always boiled longer, to release more calories. 

So people can "bulk" up, right? So consuming more calories DOES increase a persons size. So (most) people overweight are eating more calories than they burn. I understand. ?

PS I'm fat! 

2014 Challenged Cup Winner
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5 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

But if you record it at 20 calories, and eat to a set limit, then the fact its less won't do you any harm?

I was more coming at it from the direction of all food not being equal even if the headline calories are - if people can see a choice between 2 foodstuffs both of which they like and both of the same headline calorie but one has less "effective" calories then they can make a choice to eat the one that may fill them up more for the amount of calories actually staying in their body

 

I hope that makes sense

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I'm currently staying in an all-inclusive hotel in Madeira. People watching, especially at mealtimes has been interesting, and helped me understand a bit more about some of the issues surrounding eating habits and waste. 

Firstly is the availability and cost of food. Obviously here, food is free and readily accessible. I've been trying to be restrained: breakfast each day has been fresh fruit, and an omelette with mushrooms and grilled tomatoes. Lunch has generally consisted of salad, with either fish or meat and evening meals of a salad to start and a main course of fish or meat, veg and a small portion of rice. After 5 days, I'm yet to touch a fried breakfast, pastry, chips, pizza, etc, however it is a mental challenge to resist, and I do at times feel like I'm punishing myself to avoid all of these foods. Clearly other people would not bring my mindset on holiday with them, and to an extent, why should they? 

Secondly is base metabolism. I'm 5' 10" and 11.5 st. Whilst here, I've averaged 7 or 8 miles per day on foot whilst sightseeing, and been to the gym 3 times in 5 days. My wife is a size 8, and has done the same exercise, yet has eaten more than me, both in terms of quantity and quality, having had more deserts, pastries, fried food, etc. Despite this, evidence of previous holidays suggest that when we get home, it will be me that has put on the most weight. 

Thirdly is alcohol. Perhaps part of the weight gain issue above is because of this, as I'll probably average say 4 large spirits and mixers per day, plus a couple of glasses of wine. My wife will probably only have a third of that. 

Finally is culture. The hotel has a mixture of English, German and French speaking guests, mainly from the former two groups. My findings are by no means scientific, however I'd suggest it's the English speakers that are in the main the most likely to be overweight. Similarly, when out and about, there are far less English speakers proportionately than at the hotel. Is that possibly because the British are more likely to lead a sedentary lifestyle than our European neighbours? 

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28 minutes ago, gazza77 said:

I'm currently staying in an all-inclusive hotel in Madeira. People watching, especially at mealtimes has been interesting, and helped me understand a bit more about some of the issues surrounding eating habits and waste. 

Firstly is the availability and cost of food. Obviously here, food is free and readily accessible. I've been trying to be restrained: breakfast each day has been fresh fruit, and an omelette with mushrooms and grilled tomatoes. Lunch has generally consisted of salad, with either fish or meat and evening meals of a salad to start and a main course of fish or meat, veg and a small portion of rice. After 5 days, I'm yet to touch a fried breakfast, pastry, chips, pizza, etc, however it is a mental challenge to resist, and I do at times feel like I'm punishing myself to avoid all of these foods. Clearly other people would not bring my mindset on holiday with them, and to an extent, why should they? 

Secondly is base metabolism. I'm 5' 10" and 11.5 st. Whilst here, I've averaged 7 or 8 miles per day on foot whilst sightseeing, and been to the gym 3 times in 5 days. My wife is a size 8, and has done the same exercise, yet has eaten more than me, both in terms of quantity and quality, having had more deserts, pastries, fried food, etc. Despite this, evidence of previous holidays suggest that when we get home, it will be me that has put on the most weight. 

Thirdly is alcohol. Perhaps part of the weight gain issue above is because of this, as I'll probably average say 4 large spirits and mixers per day, plus a couple of glasses of wine. My wife will probably only have a third of that. 

Finally is culture. The hotel has a mixture of English, German and French speaking guests, mainly from the former two groups. My findings are by no means scientific, however I'd suggest it's the English speakers that are in the main the most likely to be overweight. Similarly, when out and about, there are far less English speakers proportionately than at the hotel. Is that possibly because the British are more likely to lead a sedentary lifestyle than our European neighbours? 

I notice similar in the local Cosmo (an eat all you want "world cuisine" restaurant https://www.cosmo-restaurants.co.uk/ ), because when busy it has a time limit on how long you can be there you see local families of obese people who are literally trying to get there moneys worth by spending all 1.5hrs shovelling in as much as they can, whilst there will be a family of chinese looking students who have small plates with small portions eating and chatting at the next table over

"Eat as much as you want" becomes "eat as much as you can"

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7 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

I notice similar in the local Cosmo (an eat all you want "world cuisine" restaurant https://www.cosmo-restaurants.co.uk/ ), because when busy it has a time limit on how long you can be there you see local families of obese people who are literally trying to get there moneys worth by spending all 1.5hrs shovelling in as much as they can, whilst there will be a family of chinese looking students who have small plates with small portions eating and chatting at the next table over

"Eat as much as you want" becomes "eat as much as you can"

So to return to the title of this thread, is this the behaviour we should be normalising?

Should we be offering a sympathetic ear to all those shovelling food down their necks like it is going out of fashion and telling them it is society to blame or they have a mental illness or they are victims of austerity?

Isn't the plain truth that they are entirely responsible for their body size?

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10 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

So to return to the title of this thread, is this the behaviour we should be normalising?

Should we be offering a sympathetic ear to all those shovelling food down their necks like it is going out of fashion and telling them it is society to blame or they have a mental illness or they are victims of austerity?

Isn't the plain truth that they are entirely responsible for their body size?

If we look at the opening post, there is no such discussion like your second paragraph suggests.

The comedian in the opening article is pretty much asking not to be treated like a piece of poo, or making people feel bad. She wasn't looking for sympathy at all, just not abuse or fat shaming.

Seems a perfectly reasonable ask, but I understand some people love to be nasty to others.

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20 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

I notice similar in the local Cosmo (an eat all you want "world cuisine" restaurant https://www.cosmo-restaurants.co.uk/ ), because when busy it has a time limit on how long you can be there you see local families of obese people who are literally trying to get there moneys worth by spending all 1.5hrs shovelling in as much as they can, whilst there will be a family of chinese looking students who have small plates with small portions eating and chatting at the next table over

"Eat as much as you want" becomes "eat as much as you can"

To be fair, I've seen very little evidence of quantity being the problem. Quality, in terms of what people are choosing to eat is more of an issue. As per my original post however, there are clearly other factors involved other than what/how much people are eating. 

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http://www.hughesphoto.co.uk/

 

Little Nook Farm - Caravan Club Certificated Location in the heart of the Pennines overlooking Hebden Bridge and the Calder Valley.

http://www.facebook.com/LittleNookFarm

 

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28 minutes ago, gazza77 said:

To be fair, I've seen very little evidence of quantity being the problem. Quality, in terms of what people are choosing to eat is more of an issue. As per my original post however, there are clearly other factors involved other than what/how much people are eating. 

And i really do think the growth in convenience processed food is the issue - it may be different for others but if/when i eat ready meals I find they only fill me up for a short time and then i am peckish again - I think it is the sugar/salt/fat mix compared to a home cooked equivalent

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40 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

I notice similar in the local Cosmo (an eat all you want "world cuisine" restaurant https://www.cosmo-restaurants.co.uk/ ), because when busy it has a time limit on how long you can be there you see local families of obese people who are literally trying to get there moneys worth by spending all 1.5hrs shovelling in as much as they can, whilst there will be a family of chinese looking students who have small plates with small portions eating and chatting at the next table over

"Eat as much as you want" becomes "eat as much as you can"

Some mainland Chinese tourists could teach these guys a few lessons in how to make the most of an all you can eat buffet.

 

 

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Just now, SSoutherner said:

And i really do think the growth in convenience processed food is the issue - it may be different for others but if/when i eat ready meals I find they only fill me up for a short time and then i am peckish again - I think it is the sugar/salt/fat mix compared to a home cooked equivalent

Quite possibly. 

I'd rarely if ever eat such processed stuff to he fair, but even stuff like eggs when fried, good quality sausages and an excess of carbs may lead to weight issues, especially when combined with a more sedentary lifestyle. I wonder how much the latter has been impacted by a greater proportion of jobs nowadays being desk based. 

Please view my photos.

 

http://www.hughesphoto.co.uk/

 

Little Nook Farm - Caravan Club Certificated Location in the heart of the Pennines overlooking Hebden Bridge and the Calder Valley.

http://www.facebook.com/LittleNookFarm

 

Little Nook Cottage - 2-bed self-catering cottage in the heart of the Pennines overlooking Hebden Bridge and the Calder Valley.

Book now via airbnb

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26 minutes ago, gazza77 said:

Quite possibly. 

I'd rarely if ever eat such processed stuff to he fair, but even stuff like eggs when fried, good quality sausages and an excess of carbs may lead to weight issues, especially when combined with a more sedentary lifestyle. I wonder how much the latter has been impacted by a greater proportion of jobs nowadays being desk based. 

I am the same - i usually cook form scratch and eat a lot of stir fry's or roasted veg (as in tomatoes/peppers/courgette/aubergine thrown in the oven for an hour) - I am also meaning convenience sauces, people using Dolmio red or white rather than making a simple ragu or white sauce

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On 22/04/2019 at 11:13, DavidM said:

Err , I wouldn’t say it did ! Or I would do it . But it was the reality of being at school . 

They bullied clever people too. And thin people. And ginger people. Anybody they felt like bullying.

I was overweight for a long time - from about 1988 until I had a kind of epiphany in 2010. I ended up at 106kg which i reduced to 71kg over the course of 9 months. Since then I've largely kept it down but last year I crept up to 83kg and have since got it back to 75kg. I don't want to be fat but it takes will power that i really struggle with - I'd rather the food not be so readily available. It would certainly make it easier.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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1 minute ago, tim2 said:

They bullied clever people too. And thin people. And ginger people. Anybody they felt like bullying.

I was overweight for a long time - from about 1988 until I had a kind of epiphany in 2010. I ended up at 106kg which i reduced to 71kg over the course of 9 months. Since then I've largely kept it down but last year I crept up to 83kg and have since got it back to 75kg. I don't want to be fat but it takes will power that i really struggle with - I'd rather the food not be so readily available. It would certainly make it easier.

Crikey!

 

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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27 minutes ago, tim2 said:

They bullied clever people too. And thin people. And ginger people. Anybody they felt like bullying

Absolutely . I got it for the bizarre offence of being a ‘ swot ‘ . You never forget a school bully either ... to this day !

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