Rather disappointing

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

As Oxford and Scotchy have alluded to, in reality, Toulouse is more of a reclaim for the game. This is more of a natural regrowth for the sport.

Perhaps we have become too used to thinking of our sport as belonging to a heartland that only existed in the minds of those when it was at it's lowest ebb, at club level, during the 1960's and 70's.

Or people are redefining expansion in a rather odd way.

Admitting Toulouse and Catalans to the UK pyramid absolutely meets the definition of expansion...

the action of becoming larger or more extensive.

 

• a thing formed by the enlargement or broadening of something.

[Man of Kent]

5 minutes ago, Oxford said:

How kind of you to say so MoK.

Notice no reciprocal insult, name calling or anything else of that ilk.

It was a patronising post, Oxford, but I suppose that is your modus operandi.

 

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

It was a patronising post, Oxford, but I suppose that is your modus operandi.

 

It was a frustrated post because I couldn't believe I had to argue what expansion might include and if you wish it to be patronising and that to be your view of me, help yourself.

On point Robert Elstone, as DaveT pointed out does seem risk averse and for SL to develop and progress as well as expand this may prove just one more barrier that will keep us on the M62  and that would be a shame, the usual but a shame.

[Man of Kent]

5 minutes ago, Oxford said:

On point Robert Elstone, as DaveT pointed out does seem risk averse and for SL to develop and progress as well as expand this may prove just one more barrier that will keep us on the M62  and that would be a shame, the usual but a shame.

Perhaps Elstone has seen the expansionary impacts of Catalans Dragons in Super League (you know, stuff like expanding the player pool, expanding participation, expanding sources of revenue, expanding the profile of Super League etc) and believes it’s better to expand the game from solid foundations than just stick pins in a map? Just a thought!

[Mister Ting]

27 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Or people are redefining expansion in a rather odd way.

Admitting Toulouse and Catalans to the UK pyramid absolutely meets the definition of expansion...

the action of becoming larger or more extensive.

 

• a thing formed by the enlargement or broadening of something.

You are right concerning the term expansion. However, that's how many will continue to see it.

[Angelic Cynic]

6 hours ago, glossop saint said:

What a strange comment. Does anyone have a link to place it in some context?

I understand being cautious about expanding too quickly or aggressively but you've got to take a chance with someone at some point otherwise you would be left with a fraction of those original clubs from the original split, many of whom now don't exist.

 https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/sportbulls/17650401.elstone-believes-theres-nothing-toulouse-if-french-club-reach-super-league/

[Rupert Prince]

7 hours ago, John Rhino said:

Robert Elstone after his visit to Toulouse is quoted in the i as saying "expansion feels to me more secure, more sustainable, where there is a natural affection for the game, where people watch the game and people understand the game".

Fine words, but the game was new to Toulouse in 1937 and people grew to love it over time as they got to watch and understand it. They are certainly watching in Toronto.

All new areas have to be nurtured to love the game: I find his view a bit insular and pessimistic. I had hoped for better 

 

I am not at all sure why Mr Rhino is trying to create a controversy over this.

Firstly the article is on Pressreader which i struggle to put the link up for it.   The article is by Ian Laybourn.  Maybe someone can.  There is only one solid quote spelled out in it.   The headline supports Toulouse.  Nowhere is any other club or idea being dissed.

I see nothing wrong with the comments or article, they seem anodyne.  He suggests Toulouse will be good for the game if they succeed. In the context of this the article we get a preview of the likely addition of Ottawa.   And as we know its is going to happen.

Where is the need to start blaming Elstone??   Toulouse would be good for the game if they can develop.  We are soon going to see 2 Canadian teams in the game as well.  

 

Whats the beef Mr Rhino?? 

[Man of Kent]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Then he isn't expanding is he. 

Whatever the benefits of Toulouse are it is not getting RL played and watched in a new area. How we expand the games footprint and get it watched and played  in new places is a valid question. It's not answered by Toulouse

Building on 80 years of other peoples work is a much different question to what you are going to build yourself. That's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Pins on a map in places with no players, eh?

When what is now the NRL expanded to include Auckland/NZ Warriors did that count as expansion? When the NRL expands to include a second Brisbane club, will that be expansion?

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

As for 'pins in a map' Australia and NZ were just pins in a map at one point, Toulouse was a pin in a map at one point.

Thank God it wasnt you who opened Albert Baskerville's letter, thank God you weren't around to tell Jean Galia to wind his neck in and stop dreaming.

France, Australia and New Zealand. Virgin rugby territory!!!

[Mister Ting]

21 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Pins on a map in places with no players, eh?

When what is now the NRL expanded to include Auckland/NZ Warriors did that count as expansion? When the NRL expands to include a second Brisbane club, will that be expansion?

That's expansion of a rugby league competition within rugby league territory, and that, apart from Melbourne is as far as the NRL dare to go. Adding a Cumbrian or French club would amount to the same.

[Mister Ting]

12 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

France, Australia and New Zealand. Virgin rugby territory!!!

At least half of Australia and most of France. Or are you going to manage to persuade us otherwise?

[Man of Kent]

18 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm honestly interested in why you thought this was a good answer? 

If you know the history of rugby league, you’ll know it was born out of players & clubs switching from one code to another.

That is to say the expansion of rugby league into Australia, France and New Zealand originated from pre-existing domestic rugby apparatus. If you deem that expansion, of course, Scotchio

It certainly wasn’t pins on a map.

[RayCee]

This article is from League Express. Here's a link:

https://twitter.com/TOXIII?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^list%3Aastreizix%3Alive_toxiii&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fcanari-club.forumactif.com%2Fh30-to-xiii-live-game-league-one

It explains why RE sees TO as having potential. 

[John Rhino]

13 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

I am not at all sure why Mr Rhino is trying to create a controversy over this.

Firstly the article is on Pressreader which i struggle to put the link up for it.   The article is by Ian Laybourn.  Maybe someone can.  There is only one solid quote spelled out in it.   The headline supports Toulouse.  Nowhere is any other club or idea being dissed.

I see nothing wrong with the comments or article, they seem anodyne.  He suggests Toulouse will be good for the game if they succeed. In the context of this the article we get a preview of the likely addition of Ottawa.   And as we know its is going to happen.

Where is the need to start blaming Elstone??   Toulouse would be good for the game if they can develop.  We are soon going to see 2 Canadian teams in the game as well.  

 

Whats the beef Mr Rhino?? 

I have no problems with Toulouse. The beef has been spelt out very eloquently by others. And you can see there is controversy so I was correct in flagging it up. In a nutshell admitting teams into the english leagues from where there is a long history of the game is not expansion.

To use a football analogy, please, next time try playing the ball and not the man 

[Rupert Prince]

54 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

I have no problems with Toulouse. The beef has been spelt out very eloquently by others. And you can see there is controversy so I was correct in flagging it up. In a nutshell admitting teams into the english leagues from where there is a long history of the game is not expansion.

To use a football analogy, please, next time try playing the ball and not the man 

I am not playing the man.  Toulouse is not in England and neither is Ottawa.  So the carping at Elstone seems one eyed to me.

The article and quote and the context as far as I can divine seems fair comment.

Far too many simply want to cross over the road to cause an argument.   Its hard enough to create a SL club in the North of England, so pointing out the difficulties in other regions/countries seems a valid point and one worth exploring.

[winnyason]

https://www.ladepeche.fr/2019/05/21/le-stade-ernest-wallon-va-changer-de-standing,8212206.php?fbclid=IwAR1P4g6E1R3UdVisfhKZtFGcbXpI0a45bXZbbqs7BTZFmldOGYHqj-4eDqM

Toulouse confirmed at ernest next season. 

[Rupert Prince]

11 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

If you know the history of rugby league, you’ll know it was born out of players & clubs switching from one code to another.

That is to say the expansion of rugby league into Australia, France and New Zealand originated from pre-existing domestic rugby apparatus. If you deem that expansion, of course, Scotchio

It certainly wasn’t pins on a map.

I really struggle to see what people are arguing about here.  It's rather pathetic and pointless.

Rugby League broke away from Union in different places at different times.

It strikes me that to play the game anywhere else it is going to need some people to break away from something again.  I do not see much difference in it being either (say) London Irish or evangelical Union players/fans in Ottawa.

[Dave T]

24 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Isn't that the issue being highlighted though? The difficulty in expanding the game is a valid point and one worth exploring but it isn't addressed by Toulouse

Admitting Toulouse to SL may very well be the next step in growing the game in France. I hope they are. I'm massively in favour of them being in SL. 

However they arent the answer to how we expand the game. If they are once we admit them it stops because there is nobody else like them. By the criteria that Toulouse are good to admit nobody else exists to be admitted. As a plan to expand the game 'Toulouse' doesnt go very far.

But nobody has said 'we should only expand where there is a base' - but if there was a list of priorities, the likes of Toulouse would be higher than another random place on the map.

What I am referring to here is targeted expansion, i.e. us choosing to invest some of the funding currently in the UK game to move into new areas and widen our net. 

The more opportunistic expansion like Toronto and Ottowa should be supported undoubtedly, particularly if it is fully funded by them, certainly for an initial period.

[Man of Kent]

35 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Unless of course you are arguing that having RU played in an area counts as existing RL foundations. In which case I look forward to your arguments in favour of SL looking to areas like South Africa and Italy as obvious low hanging fruit

Of course. 

How else could RL have expanded into France, Australia and New Zealand without the existing RU player/club base? 

Who would Baskerville (who played and wrote a prominent book on rugby union) have written to with no RU players, no All Blacks? Who would have been the influential Dally Messenger figure in NSW? In France’s case, there could have been no Jean Galia, an RU international, to lead the way.

I look forward to seeing how you move the goalposts again to deny reality 

[Rupert Prince]

38 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Isn't that the issue being highlighted though? The difficulty in expanding the game is a valid point and one worth exploring but it isn't addressed by Toulouse

Admitting Toulouse to SL may very well be the next step in growing the game in France. I hope they are. I'm massively in favour of them being in SL. 

However they arent the answer to how we expand the game. If they are once we admit them it stops because there is nobody else like them. By the criteria that Toulouse are good to admit nobody else exists to be admitted. As a plan to expand the game 'Toulouse' doesnt go very far.

Oh give it away will you?  We have a dog that regularly chases it's tail. She is daft as well.

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Brilliant so we should be looking to south Africa and Italy as that is where RU is strong. I'm sure we will never see you speak about the strength of RU in north America as a reason that we shouldn't push forward with expansion there. Obviously, according to you, it's the reason we should. 

Stick pins in a map anywhere they play union and just go there.

 

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's your goal post. RL only expanded to NZ France and Australia because of the strength of RU there. RL didn't need to be played at all. Why not those other nations?

Or you can hide behind nonsense now your point has been proven idiotic.

I’m not against expansion to Italy or South Africa (or anywhere), but SW France is my preference as it’s part of the social fabric. They play the game there, you see.

Anyway, would expansion to include, say, Saluzzo Roosters in the British system be expansion? How about Red Star Belgrade? 

[Dave T]

32 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Except that's the clear implication of Elstones statement and previous statement and lack of anything actually addressing those issues. 

As I have said before, Elstone isn't impressing me, so I am loathe to defend him, but this interview appeared to be specifically about the Toulouse and South of France expansion. After his initial negative slant on TWP he has been more positive. 

I don't think he is as polished as he likes to think he is, he often says pretty poor things. But I don't think talking up Toulouse needs to be seen as a slur on some of the wider expansion efforts. Let's be honest, we'll soon find out what he thinks about Ottawa.

[Dave T]

45 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'd hope that's true, but as I have said earlier he has a habit of framing positive things in a negative way. This is far from the first time he has, whether unintentionally or not, come across as quite negative and unambitious for the game and there is a point at which you have to start and believe he means what he says. Though hopefully not

I think where I have softened on his negativity is that I have realised he changes his opinion quite a lot - which of course poses other problems. 

I haven't been impressed with his mouth though tbh.

[Jean Capdouzey]

If for some 'reason' SLE refuses Toronto to enter SL, could the RFL build up the Championship as a 'rival' comp, pushy for a more international feel (with Ottawa coming up the ranks) and challenge SLE for a Sky deal and sponsors considering that SLE is separate?