Political Threads

[Saintslass]

45 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I’m moving in the other direction - was Centre-right; now Centre or Centre-left.

I've watched that happen.  It's been quite interesting to witness.

[Saintslass]

2 hours ago, tonyXIII said:

Very disappointing, SL. You have changed my mind on an issue. When there was a move to accept lots of Syrian migrants, you argued that it was better to take them from the Jordanian refugee camps (Cameron's policy, iirc, though I have not read about thousands being brought into the UK - have any been accepted?) and I changed my mind to agree with you. That you revel in your unchanging view of the world does not surprise me, but it does disappoint me. I guess I'm just more open-minded than you.

Oh, and on your point about refugees … yes, thousands have been brought to the UK.  We've even had some relocated to St Helens.  One family had a bad time of it at first as someone set fire to their house but things have settled down somewhat since then.  Sadly, no Christians among the refugees even though they were terribly persecuted by ISIS and there are a sizeable number of them in the camps.  For some reason the Home Office doesn't like Christians, even the most vulnerable ones.  Thankfully, other countries do and so some have been rescued.

[shrek]

Yes I have.

I used to vote Tory - now I don't.

Not sure who should take the most credit for that, Trojan and Co in the 2010 General Election thread, who proved to be right, or pretty much everything political Saintslass has posted since.  (The later obviously in jest! ).

[ckn]

55 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I’m moving in the other direction - was Centre-right; now Centre or Centre-left.

That’d make an interesting subject for your annual review!  First rugby league then centre-left, you’ll be failing your security reviews soon old chap  

[ckn]

P.S. can we not make this thread a Brexit adjunct?  Pretty please...

[Bob8]

If someone is legitimately dim, well we all are ultimately. I am perhaps not the one to judge, when I am impatient it is when people claim not to know something they have been told many times, or claims to have already shown something they have not. This is embarrassingly obvious as it is used until I say that it is dishonest. 

Of course, I should take a chill and I take the occasional break. 

Like all of us, my friends are politically mixed. In the real world, I am only likely to take umbrage if they are dishonest continually or about me.  That is not bullying in my book nor for normal people. 

I had robust chats with Oxford before giving up. He did not cry about it. 

[gingerjon]

9 hours ago, Steve May said:

Oddly enough I went the other way.  A discussion elsewhere caused me to go from vehemently against, to more or less agnostic on the matter.    

This was my journey - mainly from on here as well. Although I stand by it boiling down to “ID cards are probably a good idea but only if implemented properly and as neutrally as possible, and I do not trust the British government to fulfil either of those criteria so, realistically, I remain against.”

[gingerjon]

8 hours ago, Niels said:

I feel similar. 

Also anyone who identifies themselves as a Liberal has to say yes as the definition of one is "willing to accept opinions different to ones' own". 

Yet in practice the opposite seems to be the case especially with regard to Brexit. 

No, I have changed my mind a lot on Brexit. Not on the essential point that being in the EU is better for the UK than being outside it - but then that comes from several decades of having that opinion so would take a lot of shifting - but on a lot of the details within Brexit, what can be done,  etc.

Also, and clearly this is a point that some who believe in the “transmit but not receive” version of posting don’t follow, it’s not virtue signalling to say you listen to people you probably disagree with, it’s just how you learn. But listening doesn’t mean that you then immediately nod and agree ... that would be as odd as never shifting an opinion ever.

[GeordieSaint]

10 hours ago, ckn said:

That’d make an interesting subject for your annual review!  First rugby league then centre-left, you’ll be failing your security reviews soon old chap  

I am just ahead of my time... the revolution is coming!

On a serious note, you’d be amazed how many Offrs under 40 who think Brexit is a stupid idea. More leavers at Lt Col and above (my last CO was a hard Brexiteer) in my experience. 

[ckn]

56 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I am just ahead of my time... the revolution is coming!

On a serious note, you’d be amazed how many Offrs under 40 who think Brexit is a stupid idea. More leavers at Lt Col and above (my last CO was a hard Brexiteer) in my experience. 

Ah, you haven't been told about the lobotomy that you require to get that Lt Col rank then?  I thought they outed that practice years ago.

I can think of no other reason why excellent Majors suddenly become Telegraph waving harrumphers overnight on promotion.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

I don't think I've had my mind particularly changed on political threads as such but have on other topics, especially things I don't know much about. Considering I did politics in college I don't really follow modern political affairs much, though the course was more about ideologies and governmental structure than anything. I may have a preconceived idea of something and upon being offered extra information I will realise my view was daft.

One thing I cannot stand is people who offer an incredibly biased viewpoint, refuse to consider the alternative and refuse to back up their own point with any evidence. This is the important bit, evidence. I won't have my mind changed if you can't produce any tangible evidence that your point is the more credible one. A point without evidence is just an unfounded opinion that the person themselves can't honestly know is true if they haven't bothered finding the evidence that makes it legitimate. 

[Private Baldrick]

30 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I don't think I've had my mind particularly changed on political threads as such but have on other topics, especially things I don't know much about. Considering I did politics in college I don't really follow modern political affairs much, though the course was more about ideologies and governmental structure than anything. I may have a preconceived idea of something and upon being offered extra information I will realise my view was daft.

One thing I cannot stand is people who offer an incredibly biased viewpoint, refuse to consider the alternative and refuse to back up their own point with any evidence. This is the important bit, evidence. I won't have my mind changed if you can't produce any tangible evidence that your point is the more credible one. A point without evidence is just an unfounded opinion that the person themselves can't honestly know is true if they haven't bothered finding the evidence that makes it legitimate. 

Is this your biased viewpoint/unfounded opinion or have you got the evidence to back it up? 

[Steve May]

I was once a pretty strong advocate of nuclear power as a necessary evil in the fight against climate change.   Unpleasant and messy, but necessary.

Now I would just describe it as plain evil.   We simply shouldn’t be building these things.

It wasn’t anything written on an internet board though, so not sure that addresses the original question.

FWIW, nor was it the excellent Chernobyl mini series currently on Sky Atlantic

 

[Steve May]

16 hours ago, Niels said:

I feel similar. 

Also anyone who identifies themselves as a Liberal has to say yes as the definition of one is "willing to accept opinions different to ones' own". 

Yet in practice the opposite seems to be the case especially with regard to Brexit. 

I was brought up in a very political household.   I was encouraged to express my opinions around the dinner table but in the full expectation that I would have to back it up with a decent argument and plenty of evidence.   And if my argument was weak, it would get taken apart.

I’m perfectly willing to accept people having different opinions from mine.   What I think is disappointing is when those opinions are not backed up with any kind of argument at all and lack any evidential base.  Which seems to be especially the case when it comes to Brexit.

 

[Private Baldrick]

5 minutes ago, Steve May said:

I was brought up in a very political household.   I was encouraged to express my opinions around the dinner table but in the full expectation that I would have to back it up with a decent argument and plenty of evidence.   And if my argument was weak, it would get taken apart.

I’m perfectly willing to accept people having different opinions from mine.   What I think is disappointing is when those opinions are not backed up with any kind of argument at all and lack any evidential base.  Which seems to be especially the case when it comes to Brexit.

 

It is hard to evidence something that has never happened. If 10 countries had left the EU and a common theme had occurred in their departure then that could be pointed to as evidence. At best with Brexit all we have is conjecture, predictions, theory and guesswork.

[Steve May]

28 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

It is hard to evidence something that has never happened. If 10 countries had left the EU and a common theme had occurred in their departure then that could be pointed to as evidence. At best with Brexit all we have is conjecture, predictions, theory and guesswork.

Then give us your logic.   There must be something behind your opinion.   Why do you think it will work?

To be honest, the only vaguely convincing argument for Brexit that I’ve ever seen is by Bob8.   

[Bleep1673]

6 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

I am just ahead of my time... the revolution is coming!

On a serious note, you’d be amazed how many Offrs under 40 who think Brexit is a stupid idea. More leavers at Lt Col and above (my last CO was a hard Brexiteer) in my experience. 

I think, therefore I am.

revolution will never happen in the Western world, where democracy is observered by an electronic government. If I said lets all meet in the central square in Leeds, and fight for our rights to equal media coverage, that will never happen, mainly because the RL fans would in fight over where it would happen,, which county would be in charge, and how much Sky would take for the talks, and how we can screw other broadcasters out of schedule.

[17 stone giant]

I've changed my mind about a hundred times, all over the same issue of whether we should Remain or Leave.

That's probably because, unlike most people here, I was never a strong believer in one or the other. I was a Remainer in the referendum, but I admit to not being entirely sure about it. I just had to make a decision and I felt that Remain was the better option. I still do, but the circumstances have now changed, given that Leave won and because three years have passed by.

I flick between thinking it's viable to still Remain, and then thinking that we've come too far and now need to Leave. I wouldn't say anyone here has changed my mind though - my mind changes when I watch certain clips on YouTube. In fact, my thoughts about sometimes wanting to Remain are despite the Remainers on here - quite a lot of whom I have found to be regularly insulting and rude about people that dare to disagree with them. In contrast, the Leavers on here are very placid. I know that's not always the case out there in the wider world - there are extremists on both sides - but it's certainly true on here. I think had the Leavers on here been as aggressive as some Remainers here are, the threads would have required far more moderation and probably most would have been locked by now.

However, I don't consider these threads as representative of most Remainers. Most of the Remainers I know are in a similar position to myself - they are torn between wondering whether we can still stay in the EU, given how much cost and damage has been done these past few years, and thinking that it's important to deliver upon the referendum promises and result. It's not an easy situation to be in, and I'm still on the fence about it.

[Niels]

11 hours ago, gingerjon said:

No, I have changed my mind a lot on Brexit. Not on the essential point that being in the EU is better for the UK than being outside it - but then that comes from several decades of having that opinion so would take a lot of shifting - but on a lot of the details within Brexit, what can be done,  etc.

Also, and clearly this is a point that some who believe in the “transmit but not receive” version of posting don’t follow, it’s not virtue signalling to say you listen to people you probably disagree with, it’s just how you learn. But listening doesn’t mean that you then immediately nod and agree ... that would be as odd as never shifting an opinion ever.

Thanks I hadn't really thought about it in  this way which is good in a thread about listening ☺

[Niels]

3 hours ago, Steve May said:

I was brought up in a very political household.   I was encouraged to express my opinions around the dinner table but in the full expectation that I would have to back it up with a decent argument and plenty of evidence.   And if my argument was weak, it would get taken apart.

I’m perfectly willing to accept people having different opinions from mine.   What I think is disappointing is when those opinions are not backed up with any kind of argument at all and lack any evidential base.  Which seems to be especially the case when it comes to Brexit.

 

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean and I remember you have accepted some of my points before which is always good ☺

Brexit I don't really understand the arguments from an economic or trading point of view so I can't really join in those. But I enjoy reading all of the posts. 

[Bob8]

46 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I've changed my mind about a hundred times, all over the same issue of whether we should Remain or Leave.

That's probably because, unlike most people here, I was never a strong believer in one or the other. I was a Remainer in the referendum, but I admit to not being entirely sure about it. I just had to make a decision and I felt that Remain was the better option. I still do, but the circumstances have now changed, given that Leave won and because three years have passed by.

I flick between thinking it's viable to still Remain, and then thinking that we've come too far and now need to Leave. I wouldn't say anyone here has changed my mind though - my mind changes when I watch certain clips on YouTube. In fact, my thoughts about sometimes wanting to Remain are despite the Remainers on here - quite a lot of whom I have found to be regularly insulting and rude about people that dare to disagree with them. In contrast, the Leavers on here are very placid. I know that's not always the case out there in the wider world - there are extremists on both sides - but it's certainly true on here. I think had the Leavers on here been as aggressive as some Remainers here are, the threads would have required far more moderation and probably most would have been locked by now.

However, I don't consider these threads as representative of most Remainers. Most of the Remainers I know are in a similar position to myself - they are torn between wondering whether we can still stay in the EU, given how much cost and damage has been done these past few years, and thinking that it's important to deliver upon the referendum promises and result. It's not an easy situation to be in, and I'm still on the fence about it.

I really don’t believe you. Sorry. 

I started moderate, and am in the middle on other fora. Still, I was playing devils advocate for leave until the whining and bitchiness starts. 

[ckn]

4 hours ago, Steve May said:

I was brought up in a very political household.   I was encouraged to express my opinions around the dinner table but in the full expectation that I would have to back it up with a decent argument and plenty of evidence.   And if my argument was weak, it would get taken apart.

I’m perfectly willing to accept people having different opinions from mine.   What I think is disappointing is when those opinions are not backed up with any kind of argument at all and lack any evidential base.  Which seems to be especially the case when it comes to Brexit.

 

I was the same, except it was overtly like saying you wanted to fornicate with the dog if you agreed with any Tory policy! And if the neighbours found out then there’d be a lynching party organised.

 

[Private Baldrick]

A bit like this forum then! 

[Steve May]

1 hour ago, Niels said:

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean and I remember you have accepted some of my points before which is always good ☺

Brexit I don't really understand the arguments from an economic or trading point of view so I can't really join in those. But I enjoy reading all of the posts. 

Nothing wrong with not understanding something or not knowing something. The most important thing is curiousity. Stay curious, and it becomes fun to understand things and argue about it.     And there’s no dishonour or shame in being wrong or changing your mind because a better argument comes along - provided you just accept it and move on.

And I’ll tell you what, you grow up loving a good argument when your Dad is an Irish trade union official and your Mum is a Yorkshire Labour councillor!    They got it from my four grandparents, whose politics was every bit as robust.

Many’s the time dinner would turn into a proper ding dong over something or other - then we’d just have a cup of tea and watch tv.

As for the robustness and aggression in these arguments, I relish it.  The real purpose of an argument like this is the argument.    I honestly find it baffling when people shy away from it or take offence.  Stand your ground or get out of the way and let the grown ups go at it.    It’s all part of the fun to me.

 

[Steve May]

11 minutes ago, ckn said:

I was the same, except it was overtly like saying you wanted to fornicate with the dog if you agreed with any Tory policy! And if the neighbours found out then there’d be a lynching party organised.

 

To be honest, in our house it would have been fine.  But I’d have needed to argue my case!