UK clubs need to move away from the bums on seats culture

[saddleworth]

Its a little over 50 yrs ago when, as a Wakey supporter, we would cram over 12,000 fans into Belle Vue for the home games. That was without the aid of sponsorship as such, or TV rights. So where has it all gone wrong?. IMO the main underlying problem is the age factor. Attending games and looking around, I would care to gamble that the bulk of the speccies are well above the fourty range. Not many young uns. Although many ethnic groups are bulking up the population, they appear to be disinterested in our game. Shoot me down if you will, but I am convinced that the transfer to full time rugby has also influenced our game. No longer do we  go along to watch our friends/relatives/local lads battling it out on the field. Now it is overpaid Aussies which once again leads to the demise of our grass roots. For goodness sake do not let us tread the path of the Yanks by putting on all day displays of dancing girls and other forms of rubbish, Its pricey enough as it is. We have witnessed falling attendances for the past few years and have buried our heads in the sand.

[redjonn]

54 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, sorry, by Quality Sporting Experience, I mean premium hospitality stuff, or events. I think in RL we are missing out on VIP-style events tbh. Our sport is top-notch, it is how we package it imho.

I tend to agree in general, although Leeds off the field are a good example of maximising premium hospitality opportunity.

Box's at over 36K all sold, premier hospitality facility at £2700 (2250+VAT) per person sold out, "private dining facility, plus other 450 seater facility at £2640, another x3 at approx £2000, plus other lower priced hospitality options.

I believe Leeds primary income streams are the sponsorship and hospitality, followed by TV money.

No doubt other clubs may well but I don't think to the value that Leeds are able to sell at.   

So I guess their are a reasonable following that are prepared to pay premium prices - not sure about similar at other clubs.

 

 

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

How do you put that in context David, surely the "quality" is relevant to those who percieve it to be quality and to their taste, I would sooner pay 50 quid to attend a RL game than be given freebies to Wembley for the FA cup final, or Silverston for the British Grand Prix, or special hospitality at the Cheltenham Races, I could go on. We the converted know how good our product is, we just need to convince more people on how good of a "Quality Sporting Expierence" it is.

I think this "we the converted" is dangerous thinking. We can't just keep yelling "TGG" at people and think that the people who can't see it aren't as enlightened as us. You might prefer RL to the FA Cup Final or a day at Silverstone, but the evidence suggests you aren't in a majority. 

It's not just about the action on the field to win over punters - they expect much more from their £20, £30, £40, £50 or more. Firstly, you can't bank on the action on the field to provide the entertainment. I'll argue with anyone that, when it's played at its best, this game as as good as any, but how often is the game genuinely played at it's best in this country? We don't have the best talent here and we have a lot of bad games. 

But secondly, it's about supporter experience. As mentioned earlier, many of our grounds offer really poor experience - bad views, poor quality seating, ###### food, leaking roofs and uncovered terraces, bad parking, portakabins masquerading as corporate boxes - need I go on?

How many people applying for Wimbledon tickets are genuine tennis fans? Most, I suspect, are applying because they want to try strawberries and cream in the sunshine at a big occasion, rather than for the action on court. I went to Wimbledon a few years ago and apart from seeing Andy Murray on Centre Court, the tennis is the part I remember least. 

The same with F1 - many punters aren't huge motorsport fans, they just want go on a pitwalk to catch a glimpse of Lewis Hamilton and maybe do a bit of celeb spotting.

The NFL makes a huge occasion of its London games with fan parks, interactive exhibits, pre-game parties in Oxford Street and Trafalgar Square. Now I know what you're thinking; the NFL runs on a very different scale to the one RL does, but surely our idea of a fan park can be something more than that numpty from Rugby AM yelling at people from a trailor?

Sports like cricket and darts have got this. They've created events and experiences that are largely detached from the "typical" or "traditional" form of the game to appeal to new audiences. Twenty 20 cricket attacts a very different crowd to long-form cricket and caters to what those demographics want. Darts has created an experience that has made what is basically a pub game into the UK's biggest indoor sport. 

 There are audiences out there that are spending lots of money on sport, but not just RL. We can't dismiss those people as being "unconverted" - we need to understand why they aren't spending money on RL and adapt what we do to meet their expectations - both on a local and national level. 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

So the OP said the point was clubs need new income streams and pointed to Toronto and the French clubs as examples of how this can be done. Is it really the case that we don't have the ingenuity to do the kind of things that were mentioned (hardly groundbreaking stuff) or is that we already know that isn't any kind reliable avenue to pursue?  I ask because we have some of the most successful sports leagues in the world in this country and I've no doubt SL clubs attend many of the seminars/conferences etc relating all things required to run a successful sports team - i'm sure even the most gritty northern outpost of a club isn't obtuse to the fact they need to get money in to be able to spend money. So why doesn't it appear to be working? My short answer would be that it is for the bigger clubs but not for the smaller and that probably isn't any more complex than the resources each has to throw at this kind of thing. That situation isn't going to change with the best will in the world unless one or both of the two guaranteed sources of revenue increase - one is TV money the other.....bums on seats and that's why it's so important. 

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, yipyee said:

I agree that it's misleading to use attendances as a metric.

10 people in hospitality are worth 50 through the turnstiles. 

5 good sponsors are worth 1 sponsor and 2k season ticket holders.

 

What if a 2k reduction in season ticket holders leads to the 5 good sponsors seeing less value in the sponsorship?

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

 

But secondly, it's about supporter experience. As mentioned earlier, many of our grounds offer really poor experience - bad views, poor quality seating, ###### food, leaking roofs and uncovered terraces, bad parking, portakabins masquerading as corporate boxes - need I go on?

 

I agree with much of the rest of your post, but not sure about this one, focusing only on Super League.

Out of the 12 clubs, we have Wigan, Leeds, Wire, Hull FC, Saints, Catalans, Huddersfield, Salford all offer excellent facilities, Hull KR has had some improvements with Wakefield, Castleford, London all pretty poor.

In reality, in the top flight, the vast majority of games are played in very good facilities. 

But, onto the rest of your point, I agree 100%, I don't think we make the most of them, or the experience that we deliver form them.

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

So the OP said the point was clubs need new income streams and pointed to Toronto and the French clubs as examples of how this can be done. Is it really the case that we don't have the ingenuity to do the kind of things that were mentioned (hardly groundbreaking stuff) or is that we already know that isn't any kind reliable avenue to pursue?  I ask because we have some of the most successful sports leagues in the world in this country and I've no doubt SL clubs attend many of the seminars/conferences etc relating all things required to run a successful sports team - i'm sure even the most gritty northern outpost of a club isn't obtuse to the fact they need to get money in to be able to spend money. So why doesn't it appear to be working? My short answer would be that it is for the bigger clubs but not for the smaller and that probably isn't any more complex than the resources each has to throw at this kind of thing. That situation isn't going to change with the best will in the world unless one or both of the two guaranteed sources of revenue increase - one is TV money the other.....bums on seats and that's why it's so important. 

I'm not really seeing anything too different in these new clubs/markets etc.-  ultimately most sports are chasing supporters to make money from, the best media deals they can, the biggest and best partners, sponsors, corporates etc. I don't think it is rocket science, it just needs the right focus, people and investment. 

Even Man Utd are out there trying to sell tickets to fans.

[Harry Stottle]

Off course I agree with all of that, and I understand that to some of the attendees the "main attraction" of the day is secondary to the other goings on,  and it presumably does not matter in the slightest if say at Wimbledon the speccies don't  know the difference between a double fault and a base line volley as long as they are there. 

Back to RL, yes we have some really depressing stadia and in towns you would not visit unless you had to or lived there, yes, I am a convert, and undoubtedly we have a very good product, but and it us a big but, throughout the history of our sport how has the governing body done anything to promote the sport other than  suggest "take a friend along" the clubs have been left to self promotion, it should have been pushed in the 50's when it was so popular, but Mr Fallowfield sat and rested in his laurels without any thought of promotiing the sport, time will tell if we have missed the bus with so many other attractions to choose from.

You say "You might prefer RL to the FA Cup Final or a day at Silverstone, but the evidence suggests you aren't in a majority" I understand that but it does not make those other sports any better in my eyes because they are more popular, an example on popularity and quality can be compared with a sirlion steak and a Macdonald's burger, millions more choose the latter but not because it is any better.

[paulwalker71]

There are some compassions on this thread that don't really make sense.

You can't compare Wimbledon or the British Grand Prix with a weekly round game at Salford or Wakefield. A better comparison for that weekly round game would be a club racing day at Oulton Park, a better comparison with an event like Wimbledon would be something like Magic Weekend (not that it really compares, but still...)

20/20 Cricket is an interesting one. They took a game that was being watch by a few old geezers and packaged it into something that a lot of people really want to watch. There are definitely some lesson to be learned there.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

20/20 Cricket is an interesting one. They took a game that was being watch by a few old geezers and packaged it into something that a lot of people really want to watch. There are definitely some lesson to be learned there. 

Even then they're still not happy with the blast, hence the newcoming 'Hundred' next year - with the aim of being more like the IPL with the emphasis on big teams not all teams.

[yipyee]

8 hours ago, phiggins said:

What if a 2k reduction in season ticket holders leads to the 5 good sponsors seeing less value in the sponsorship?

What if the 5 sponsors are mates with the board of directors? 

What if the sponsors are fans of the club and want free hospitality tickets on their buisness and the associated tax relief?

[GUBRATS]

13 hours ago, The Daddy said:

UK RL has an unhealthy obsession with attendances. I include both spectators and club owners in that. Attendances are not the be all and end all. Yes they are important but it needs to be mixed with other forms of income. The sport over here is just too reliant on bums on seats as a revenue stream and needs to create new business models where multiple streams of income are created that support the clubs. I think the French clubs and Toronto are moving in the right way I'm this respect. There's a big debate about how much of Toronto's crowd actually pay entrance fee, but I think the owners are looking at the bigger picture. They are turning match days into an event and creating a buzz around that, building a 5 star brand and then creating revenues around it. They have their own alcohol product, cannabis oil product and many more on the way. Revenue from streaming is a big part of their plans. This is a new business model in comparison to traditional UK clubs. The French clubs develop strong links with local and regional government bodies who provide funding and they also have a strong presence in the business world with round table events and plenty of innovation around engaging the business community for sponsorship. Already the Catalan Dragons are one of the highest revenue earners in SL. The British clubs must learn from this and so should the RFL and Robert Elstone because I think clubs should be permitted access to SL on the strength of their business model.

 

No we dont , ALL income streams need to be worked at and improved 

[Kayakman]

Why can't you have both, its not an either or.  More bums in the seats and more income from other streams; they are like a hand in a glove.  The big thing is marketing (for either decision).  Yes, Toronto is on the leading edge of this new way (and just not in RL); there is alot to learn from Toronto in both regards.

[Balmain1969]

Not a Roosters fan, but you have to admire the fact they know how to make money. Don't rely on crowds or TV money, invest in your future.

 

Roosters chairman Nick Politis preparing $500m parting gift for his club

By Andrew Webster

September 27, 2018 — 8.44pm

For the past 25 years, Roosters chairman Nick Politis has sat in the same seat — row N, bay 62, seat 1 — at Allianz Stadium to watch his beloved team.

When the stadium is knocked down following next Friday’s Michael Buble concert, the SCG Trust will give Politis the seat as a souvenir.

It's a nice touch but a more pressing question is how much longer will Politis, 76, be sitting on the throne of the Roosters “No mate,” Politis said. “I haven’t thought about retirement”.

 

Then he let out his signature giggle.

“Can we just wait and see if we win first? One step at a time. But I won’t be retiring.”

Politis certainly understands, though, that he can’t run the club forever and is preparing for the future. His end-game is to deliver a property portfolio worth $500 million before he finishes.

He might have made his way in the world selling cars but much of his fortune can be attributed to property. He was last year ranked No.82 on The Australian Financial Review's Rich List with an estimated wealth of $773 million.

 

On his watch, the Roosters have snapped up Waverley Bowling Club, Berkeley Sports, Kingswood Sports Club and Woy Woy Leagues. They also plan to turn North Bondi Golf and Diggers Club into a multi-purpose sports centre.

The centrepiece is a redeveloped Easts Leagues in Bondi Junction. The club has snapped up most of the property on the L-shaped block on the corner of Spring Street and Bronte Road with a long-term plan to turn it into a lucrative high-rise development.

Politis knows his club can’t survive on poker machine revenue forever and wants to leave it in safe hands for the next custodians of the club.

“That should be any chairman's objective,” he said. “At the moment, our commercial property is valued at $120m and we have no debt. Next year, we will have $10m in cash in the bank. We’re in a very good position financially.”

 

[GUBRATS]

8 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

The answers you will get wont be based on the value to the tv company, it will be to the paying fan. We know this because they had a tv deal, for Thursday nights, and screamed blue murder. 

How much did those clubs receive in compensation ?

[The Daddy]

5 hours ago, Balmain1969 said:

Not a Roosters fan, but you have to admire the fact they know how to make money. Don't rely on crowds or TV money, invest in your future.

 

Roosters chairman Nick Politis preparing $500m parting gift for his club

By Andrew Webster

September 27, 2018 — 8.44pm

For the past 25 years, Roosters chairman Nick Politis has sat in the same seat — row N, bay 62, seat 1 — at Allianz Stadium to watch his beloved team.

When the stadium is knocked down following next Friday’s Michael Buble concert, the SCG Trust will give Politis the seat as a souvenir.

It's a nice touch but a more pressing question is how much longer will Politis, 76, be sitting on the throne of the Roosters “No mate,” Politis said. “I haven’t thought about retirement”.

 

Then he let out his signature giggle.

“Can we just wait and see if we win first? One step at a time. But I won’t be retiring.”

Politis certainly understands, though, that he can’t run the club forever and is preparing for the future. His end-game is to deliver a property portfolio worth $500 million before he finishes.

He might have made his way in the world selling cars but much of his fortune can be attributed to property. He was last year ranked No.82 on The Australian Financial Review's Rich List with an estimated wealth of $773 million.

 

On his watch, the Roosters have snapped up Waverley Bowling Club, Berkeley Sports, Kingswood Sports Club and Woy Woy Leagues. They also plan to turn North Bondi Golf and Diggers Club into a multi-purpose sports centre.

The centrepiece is a redeveloped Easts Leagues in Bondi Junction. The club has snapped up most of the property on the L-shaped block on the corner of Spring Street and Bronte Road with a long-term plan to turn it into a lucrative high-rise development.

Politis knows his club can’t survive on poker machine revenue forever and wants to leave it in safe hands for the next custodians of the club.

“That should be any chairman's objective,” he said. “At the moment, our commercial property is valued at $120m and we have no debt. Next year, we will have $10m in cash in the bank. We’re in a very good position financially.”

 

This is the perfect example of how a club owner has acquired a number of properties that create revenue for the football club. Why haven't some clubs gone into property? Buying property in the greater Manchester area for example is not expensive and has a decent level of growth.

[The Daddy]

Property income is an example of how revenue can be created for a RL through investment and rentals. Why haven't clubs gotten involved in that? 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, The Daddy said:

Property income is an example of how revenue can be created for a RL through investment and rentals. Why haven't clubs gotten involved in that? 

Probably the same short sightedness and lack of resources that plagues the game generally. Its a shame because the places where a lot of RL clubs are are the places in dire need of some local investment and as such its relatively cheap too.

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

TIckets, to you know, put bums on seats. Because they didn't see the opportunity of building TV rights but the cost of lower attendances. 

Rather than trying (and failing to be smart) you could try answering the original question. As a (disproportionately) vocal championship fan, if the championship wants a tv deal when would they play? Two games per week. Thursday nights, Friday nights, Saturday evenings are SL slots, Saturday and Sunday afternoons are owned by football. If the championship wants tv money, when would it play?

Good point Scotchy...I eagerly await the response.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

In fact, if you want another definitive example of the bums on seats culture. The one round we do sell in its entirety to sky, the regular season round that gets the most advertisement and most visibility, That provided at least 650k viewers, is judged a failure because ticket sales were down. 

Whilst this is a fair point, you are taking it to the extreme.

We got c650k viewers last year, but managed to lose 11.5% of attendees, despite moving to a new stadium closer to many teams. This is 17% down on the peak three years ago.

But the point is relevant to stop those who want the event scrapping in their tracks. That should never be on the table, and based on the 3 year Dacia deal thankfully it doesn't appear to be on the table.

 

[fighting irish]

I'm always shocked that there isn't a formal exchange of best practises between the clubs. They seem to see each other as competitors in every facet of operations. It's very sad.

[Rupert Prince]

On 04/06/2019 at 10:57, Dave T said:

I don't think this should be understated or dismissed as it often is. I enjoy going to pubs, less so clubs nowadays, but if they were always dead with no atmosphere, I would be going to others, or change my habits and drink at home on a weekend.

The atmosphere and crowd is absolutely part of the experience.

Mmmm...

All my friends (such as I have left) all remind me that I really only like places that are empty except for me.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

TV revenue is vastly more profitable than away fans. 

I totally agree it should be, but at the moment Clubs do not monetise that aspect enough at all.

[whatmichaelsays]

On 04/06/2019 at 14:14, Dave T said:

I agree with much of the rest of your post, but not sure about this one, focusing only on Super League.

Out of the 12 clubs, we have Wigan, Leeds, Wire, Hull FC, Saints, Catalans, Huddersfield, Salford all offer excellent facilities, Hull KR has had some improvements with Wakefield, Castleford, London all pretty poor.

In reality, in the top flight, the vast majority of games are played in very good facilities. 

But, onto the rest of your point, I agree 100%, I don't think we make the most of them, or the experience that we deliver form them.

Interestingly, I've just had the corporate hospitality offering for the CC Semi Finals land in my Linkedin Feed. 

What would be on offer for high-value guests at this prestige event? 

Soup and "warm pies".

If that doesn't scream "blue chip", I don't know what does.   

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6541622701952503808

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Mmmm...

All my friends (such as I have left) all remind me that I really only like places that are empty except for me.

I must admit, what I wrote wasn't 100% true :biggrin: