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Wellsy4HullFC

Swinton considering Manchester rebrand

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8 hours ago, Number 16 said:

Toronto is a hard core hockey/soccer/CFL/baseball/lacrosse stronghold which isn't looking for an alternative sport. 

Lacrosse?

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13 hours ago, North but south said:

Manchester is one of the largest cities in the UK. rugby league could work, with good attendance, as long as it was in the right location.

It could work, however, Sheffield is about as good an example as you can wish for, and the attendances have never really set the world on fire over the years. 

They have played at a few different stadia but the attendances have never really got off the ground regardless of where they have played. Even taking in to account the recent trend for exaggerating the figures, they still aren't anything to write home about. 

Even after the shock win in the Challenge Cup, attendances didn't really take off to the levels most would have hoped for. 

Maybe marketing is the key, but, it is a very expensive gamble, if the game doesn't capture the public's imagination. 

 

 

Edited by DOGFATHER

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2 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

It could work, however, Sheffield is about as good an example as you can wish for, and the attendances have never really set the world on fire over the years.

They have played at a few different stadia but the attendances have never really got off the ground, even taking in to account the recent trend for exaggerating the figures, they still aren't anything to write home about. 

Even after the shock win in the Challenge Cup they didn't really take off to the levels most would have hoped for. 

Maybe marketing is the key, but, it is a very expensive gamble, if the game doesn't capture the public's imagination as much as is hoped. 

 

 

A lot has happened in the 20 years since Eagles won the challenge cup in terms of understanding the need to really push things rather than "look we won now everyone come along!" which was very much the attitude. Look at Catalans this year they are really making a push with it and i think, looking back, similar could have happened. The Shuddesfield debacle then happened quickly after. 

The thing with Sheffield is the moving around has meant here is no where to call "home" and most of the efforts have been around finding a place to play for next year, then the next, then the next.. there is now a settled home so they can start to build again, there is more going on in the city and Jack Howieson seems quite active both in the junior side of things and getting people involved (just set up a touch rugby comp on a monday night). 

The home is starting to come together but it still is a work in progress but they haven't got to find somewhere new every year so the boards' efforts can be put into club growth rather than just surviving another year until a permanent home can be found.

None of this is to say that it will work but it looks like a bit of a new dawn with a few people with a bit more sense getting involved. As has been said by other people on here if only a few thousand get interested that is a good crowd and base to start building from in the championship. 

To move Swinton to be Manchester will take some work but it depends who they get involved. If they get the right people then it can "work" but they have to know what "work" is.. I would say its get a sustainable base of a thousand or so, and a "home" to build things around then go from there.. the question is, is this easier with "Manchester" or "Swinton"? my guess is Manchester but not being from there I couldn't say 100%. 

but to compare to Sheffield I think is a dangerous route due to the extra factors Sheffield has had to deal with that hopefully Manchester/Swinton wont.. its why IMHO no expansion club is the same and no expansion "model" can exist as each place, and each team will have different issues, different blocks and different positives they have to work with.

There are gaps in Sheffield and Manchester and Birmingham and London for RL but you have to work out what they are and how best to exploit them, just because one city hasn't managed it doesnt mean others cannot.

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15 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I go and watch Swinton from time to time and take friends and family there.

Any rebrand to ‘Manchester’ would completely end my interest in them as a club.

which would be a shame but if they alienate 500 to gain 2,000 it would be worth it.. its the balance of whether that is what is actually going to happen that they have to look at rather than the personal side of the argument which will come to the fore on places such as this.

Edited by RP London

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17 minutes ago, RP London said:

which would be a shame but if they alienate 500 to gain 2,000 it would be worth it.. its the balance of whether that is what is actually going to happen that they have to look at rather than the personal side of the argument which will come to the fore on places such as this.

I’d be finished with it and would certainly like to know where a ‘2000’ figure would come from to watch lower Championship level rugby league.

I have worked in Manchester city centre for the best part of thirty years and have yet to have a single positive RL conversation with a Mancunian if they even know the sport exists.

As usual this just seems like pie in the sky from well meaning people who ultimately are a bit uninformed on the ground on the face of it.

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7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’d be finished with it and would certainly like to know where a ‘2000’ figure would come from to watch lower Championship level rugby league.

I have worked in Manchester city centre for the best part of thirty years and have yet to have a single positive RL conversation with a Mancunian if they even know the sport exists.

As usual this just seems like pie in the sky from well meaning people who ultimately are a bit uninformed on the ground on the face of it.

i'm sure it does seem like that.. 

the 2000 figure is very much plucked from said sky by me as an example. If they were only changing the name to stay at the same figure then they wouldnt bother.. it would be a waste of money and time so the only reason to do it would be to increase the numbers.. hence a good gain.. and yes it would be a good number for the championship but is that not the point of all of these clubs, to try and get better numbers than we have now? if their fundamental aim is to get 600 through the gates then fold them now and lets be done its pointless..

As I said, they will be looking at the balance of "if we lose everyone but we gain x then is it worth it?" if its 500 lost for 500 gain then no, if its 500 loss for 2000 gain then yes. 

I was not giving an opinion but stating the thought process, using figures as an illustration to show this. 

Yes it would be a shame to lose anyone but as with any business if you gain more than you lose then your decision is probably the correct one, though maybe not popular with those that you lose... as you say you go "from time to time" you're not even saying you go "all the time" so to lose you is not even losing a full season of sales.. this is nothing against you, you go more times than i go to Sheffield or any matches I expect but its just the facts of the situation.

lets take a breath and remember its not a done deal either way its just people talking about what may happen whilst, one would expect, researching the possibilities.

Edited by RP London

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1 minute ago, RP London said:

i'm sure it does seem like that.. 

the 2000 figure is very much plucked from said sky by me as an example. If they were only changing the name to stay at the same figure then they wouldnt bother.. it would be a waste of money and time so the only reason to do it would be to increase the numbers.. hence a good gain.. and yes it would be a good number for the championship but is that not the point of all of these clubs, to try and get better numbers than we have now? if their fundamental aim is to get 600 through the gates then fold them now and lets be done its pointless..

As I said, they will be looking at the balance of "if we lose everyone but we gain x then is it worth it?" if its 500 lost for 500 gain then no, if its 500 loss for 2000 gain then yes. 

I was not giving an opinion but stating the thought process, using figures as an illustration to show this. 

Yes it would be a shame to lose anyone but as with any business if you gain more than you lose then your decision is probably the correct one, though maybe not popular with those that you lose... as you say you go "from time to time" you're not even saying you go "all the time" so to lose you is not even losing a full season of sales.. this is nothing against you, you go more times than i go to Sheffield or any matches I expect but its just the facts of the situation.

Where is the evidence though that you’re going to gain people through this process?

Its pretty obvious that the rugby league area near the city is in the north near Swinton and Salford.

Any business plan that involves alienating these people is bound to fail barring some incredible level of investment that frankly is hard to imagine at this present moment in time.

All you will do will lose more fans to the sport and that is something that RL can hardly be in the position of doing so.

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4 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

1. Where is the evidence though that you’re going to gain people through this process?

2. Its pretty obvious that the rugby league area near the city is in the north near Swinton and Salford.

3. Any business plan that involves alienating these people is bound to fail barring some incredible level of investment that frankly is hard to imagine at this present moment in time.

4. All you will do will lose more fans to the sport and that is something that RL can hardly be in the position of doing so.

1. Thats what the businessmen/ directors involved will be looking at.. what they need to do and if it is worth it.. I keep saying it is about the research.. this isnt a done deal it is people saying it may be something to look at.

2. at the moment possibly but times change and you can always get more people interested..

3. possibly but that is what they are investigating, and perhaps by changing the a name to Manchester this investment may come.. I keep saying it is about the research.. this isnt a done deal it is people saying it may be something to look at.

4. not it isnt all that they will do necessarily.. if it is then they wont do it!!! I keep saying it is about the research.. this isnt a done deal it is people saying it may be something to look at.

 

If all we can aim for is what we have then we are really in an awful place.. yet, as i keep saying, you dont alienate people for no gain. 

This is all about "can it work".. you have said it needs investment, i dont think anyone would disagree (in fact i think i explicitly said it earlier) but that doesnt mean investment is not coming, did Manchester Rangers not have investors lining up??

 

 

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3 minutes ago, RP London said:

1. Thats what the businessmen/ directors involved will be looking at.. what they need to do and if it is worth it.. I keep saying it is about the research.. this isnt a done deal it is people saying it may be something to look at.

2. at the moment possibly but times change and you can always get more people interested..

3. possibly but that is what they are investigating, and perhaps by changing the a name to Manchester this investment may come.. I keep saying it is about the research.. this isnt a done deal it is people saying it may be something to look at.

4. not it isnt all that they will do necessarily.. if it is then they wont do it!!! I keep saying it is about the research.. this isnt a done deal it is people saying it may be something to look at.

 

If all we can aim for is what we have then we are really in an awful place.. yet, as i keep saying, you dont alienate people for no gain. 

This is all about "can it work".. you have said it needs investment, i dont think anyone would disagree (in fact i think i explicitly said it earlier) but that doesnt mean investment is not coming, did Manchester Rangers not have investors lining up??

 

 

All sounds extremely vague to me.

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It seems a bit of a no-brainer for Swinton Lions to become the Manchester Lions, as others have said the meaningful connection with the Swinton locality seems to have been broken for 20+ years.

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1 minute ago, Canis Lupus said:

Tell that to the die hards who flew out to Toronto for our "Home opener" 

Its not as straightforward as that though is it. A club can build from a core of 400 diehards, but it can't exist on just them - especially if no significant amount of new fans are coming through the turnstyles to replenish that core.

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I agree new fans need to come from somewhere as well as other possible money streams  . My comment was just to make note that not all connections with Swinton are broken. These are the fans the club needs to build on not alienate.

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16 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

It may gather some strength if the quotes from 15 mins in on the BBC Podcast come to fruition.

Looking at expansion from another - television camera - angle.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07c41zj

The angle being overseas.

"It's not about the club, it's about the town", said Steve Mascord in reply to St Helens fans on social media who didn't like him comparing their town unfavourably to the likes of Toronto, New York, Ottawa, Leeds, etc.  I wonder where I've heard that idea before? 😉

Edited by Big Picture

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1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

All sounds extremely vague to me.

It is.. thats why they havent announced it as something they are going to do but as something they are considering.. I am sure feedback from people will be taken into account too.

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7 hours ago, Number 16 said:

You better believe it! Toronto Rock average nearly 10k per game. And they are rubbish.

Never heard of them.

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4 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I go and watch Swinton from time to time and take friends and family there.

Any rebrand to ‘Manchester’ would completely end my interest in them as a club.

I take your point. Would you support them or retain your interest in them if they were more regarded as "The Lions".  As a further example, suppose you emigrated to Australia and became a Rabbitohs fan.  Would you be overly concerned of they moved their stadium 5 miles away?  I hope you can get my drift.

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2 hours ago, Canis Lupus said:

I agree new fans need to come from somewhere as well as other possible money streams  . My comment was just to make note that not all connections with Swinton are broken. These are the fans the club needs to build on not alienate.

Yes of course,but true fans would see the need and go with it. Embrace it.

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16 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Do you really think that's why they did it?

I can only imagine it was a testing-the-waters type exercise. Swinton as a club will never progress in their current guise as they bounce from place to place and none of them are in Swinton; on top of that, Swinton is a tiny place shadowed by the bigger Manchester conurbations (let alone Manchester itself).

It's time some of these smaller village teams either evolve with the pro game to chase success or become a good amateur team.

Yes totally, bad error of judgement in my opinion, genuinely why else would you do it. Not that it made much difference like I said. They should be very much community focused and have a large presence within that. I think semi pro rugby in this country is changing right now and is unsure of whats a good model, Swinton are a good example as are Rochdale, forever up and down. History is a wonderful thing that should be cherished and respected, but it doesn't pay the bills.

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