David Argyle fires himself

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

I await the head that will roll out of the RFL door, someone in a high place has again shown great incompetence and must go.

I assume the RL journos are all over this right now.

[Oxford]

51 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We shouldn't argue Twitter's points on here.

We shouldn't argue twitter's points anywhere Dave.

Fortunately, I have a life!

[Toby Chopra]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But we will tolerate it. We can't not. There will still be comments made by fans, players, owners, staff. Some will be accepted, some will receive a punishment. We didn't fire Justin Carney and we wont fire the next one. 

We haven't drawn a line in the sand, its impossible for us to do so. You can't legislate against ignorance and stupidity. 

If anything it makes a rod for our own back where the next offender is expected to receive some draconian punishment we can't really justify, legally or ethically. 

It also draws in to stark contrast the attitude towards racism compared to other forms of bigotry. Are we now going to exclude everyone who calls a player a girls name due to its obvious connotations of both homophobia and misogyny? Are we going to go through the thread on here about women commentators and ban everyone who expressed the obvious misogynistic comments on there? 

 

We can and certainly should loudly condemn them as unacceptable. Why wouldn't we? 

But that's deflection. David Argyle is not some anonymous keyboard warrior on here, he's one of the most important and influential figures in the game. Of course he's held to higher standards and sanctions. 

This connection that some people are making that if we make a stand on this, the next minute the thought police will be knocking on your nan's door is ludicrous, and frankly is just an excuse to brush things under the carpet. 

[Toby Chopra]

12 minutes ago, Damien said:

No it doesn't at all. The sport set the standard of doing nothing and hoping that it would go away. Argyle set his own self administered punishment when his apology wasn't deemed sufficient.

Well, yes, that's probably right. 

[Dave T]

No precedent has been set here, apart from within the TWP organisation.

The sport gave Hardaker a 5 match (iirc) ban for calling a ref an 'effing fag' live on Sky Sports along with community work, and Carney an 8 match ban for racial abuse.

[Chris22]

It is difficult to argue with Mr Argyle's logic. If he would sack another employee for this, then he is right to sack himself. But, it is one thing saying it, it is another to do it. It is a principled stand.

The comment that he made was awful. There can be no excusing it or caveating it. Argyle was right to apologise for it and Kenga was right to highlight it, having seemingly seen little action by taking in through the official route.

My personal opinion is that education is more suitable than punishment for this kind of offence in the first instance. I believe that if Argyle genuinely realised how hurtful the comment was, he wouldn't have said it.

I do not think he is a racist, which is an attitude. But I do think is was a racially-insensitive remark. I'm not sure what sacking people achieves. It would have the effect of telling people that saying these things is unacceptable (which it is), but it does nothing to stop people thinking it or acting with underlying racial bias.

Education is the key. Learning about the history of oppression that minority groups have faced, and why such comments are offensive is far more the way to go and would have a far greater benefit. In my opinion, of course.

[Moove]

21 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I actually think RL does gain by Argyle stepping down. It sets a standard that as a sport, we will no longer tolerate the casual racism that pervades it (and is evidenced by so many wanting to downplay this)

Except the sport didn't set a standard. The sport chose to ignore it, wait for it to blow up in our faces, and again waited for the accused to set his own punishment. Quite an extreme one at that.

I have the utmost respect for the player in having the balls to call something like this out. I have respect for Argyle in dealing with the situation (even if I disagree with the end result and indeed the original indiscretion). I have zero respect for the incompetent clowns who allowed the situation to get to this point and put the player in the position he's found himself in.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Chris22 said:

It is difficult to argue with Mr Argyle's logic. If he would sack another employee for this, then he is right to sack himself. But, it is one thing saying it, it is another to do it. It is a principled stand.

The comment that he made was awful. There can be no excusing it or caveating it. Argyle was right to apologise for it and Kenga was right to highlight it, having seemingly seen little action by taking in through the official route.

My personal opinion is that education is more suitable than punishment for this kind of offence in the first instance. I believe that if Argyle genuinely realised how hurtful the comment was, he wouldn't have said it.

I do not think he is a racist, which is an attitude. But I do think is was a racially-insensitive remark. I'm not sure what sacking people achieves. It would have the effect of telling people that saying these things is unacceptable (which it is), but it does nothing to stop people thinking it or acting with underlying racial bias.

Education is the key. Learning about the history of oppression that minority groups have faced, and why such comments are offensive is far more the way to go and would have a far greater benefit. In my opinion, of course.

Pretty much my view on this whole thing mate, well said.

[Toby Chopra]

30 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

You cannot and should not have laws or even principles where whether or not somebody is a victim is totally subjective and up to them, not only is that asininely stupid for lots of obvious reasons that I shouldn't need to go through, but mainly because it leads down a road that can only lead to extreme authoritarianism (where people in government are given the power to decide what is and isn't offensive and what the punishment for causing offence should be), but it's also extremely easy to abuse for obvious reasons.

Yet that is where we are.

Also I'm not telling Jose how to feel about it, he can feel bad about it all he likes, however him feeling bad about and not liking it doesn't mean that anything can be or should be done about the "incident".

You specifically said that no one was hurt, whereas Jose himself said that he was. 

Yet somehow me placing his view over yours (based on what) is one step from fascism? Utter nonsense. 

[redjonn]

yep, it was an unacceptable comment,  one that he should be criticised  for.  One he should apologise for.

Providing he has no previous history and something he learns from that should have been enough.  

I believe in forgiveness, would accept his apology, watch his subsequent actions and given he spoke to the individual from which he will learn more about the impact of his comments... it should be left at that.

Of course its never enough for some, whom will accuse anything other than the most severe of sanctions every single time that one is brushing it under the carpet if you don't.

That is distinct from being loud and clear that such is unacceptable.

 

[Man of Kent]

Hope Karen Moorhouse doesn’t carry the can for this at the RFL. She seems to be the one without sludge for brains at Red Hall.

[Toby Chopra]

3 minutes ago, Moove said:

Except the sport didn't set a standard. The sport chose to ignore it, wait for it to blow up in our faces, and again waited for the accused to set his own punishment. Quite an extreme one at that.

I have the utmost respect for the player in having the balls to call something like this out. I have respect for Argyle in dealing with the situation (even if I disagree with the end result and indeed the original indiscretion). I have zero respect for the incompetent clowns who allowed the situation to get to this point and put the player in the position he's found himself in.

Yes, that's fair. 

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Chris22 said:

It is difficult to argue with Mr Argyle's logic. If he would sack another employee for this, then he is right to sack himself. But, it is one thing saying it, it is another to do it. It is a principled stand.

And the game needs more principled people not less.

 

3 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

I do not think he is a racist, which is an attitude. But I do think is was a racially-insensitive remark.

Yes but extracating things so you can analyse properly and talk about things went missing in 1979 and hasn't yet come back into fashion. In fact it's further from that than ever right now.

Here, I'm just speaking as someone who's actually been to Swinton.

 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, redjonn said:

yep, it was an unacceptable comment,  one that he should be criticised  for.  One he should apologise for.

Providing he has no previous history and something he learns from that should have been enough.  

I believe in forgiveness, would accept his apology, watch his subsequent actions and given he spoke to the individual from which he will learn more about the impact of his comments... it should be left at that.

Of course its never enough for some, whom will accuse anything other than the most severe of sanctions every single time that one is brushing it under the carpet if you don't.

That is distinct from being loud and clear that such is unacceptable.

 

I keep reading this - genuine question, has there been a swell of support for wanting him sacked?

I know the player himself said just the apologies weren't enough.

[Toby Chopra]

1 minute ago, redjonn said:

yep, it was an unacceptable comment,  one that he should be criticised  for.  One he should apologise for.

Providing he has no previous history and something he learns from that should have been enough.  

I believe in forgiveness, would accept his apology, watch his subsequent actions and given he spoke to the individual from which he will learn more about the impact of his comments... it should be left at that.

Of course its never enough for some, whom will accuse anything other than the most severe of sanctions every single time that one is brushing it under the carpet if you don't.

That is distinct from being loud and clear that such is unacceptable.

 

So who are these mysterious figures that forced his resignation? 

[redjonn]

Just now, Dave T said:

I keep reading this - genuine question, has there been a swell of support for wanting him sacked?

I know the player himself said just the apologies weren't enough.

 I don't think so....

I was more reacting to some comments that seemed to give an impression that whatever action/consequences would never be enough. Maybe its more about how such one writes or how one reads a comment - myself included

[redjonn]

1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

So who are these mysterious figures that forced his resignation? 

I never mentioned his resignation.... he took what he thought was a principled decision - that's fine.

You seem to be directly connecting my comment to his resignation, which I wasn't. My comment was more to how I read some comments.

[deluded pom?]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

They certainly don't seem to clamp down on internet use for non-work reasons either 

They certainly don’t clamp down when I’m sat in my own living room. Not all of us rob their employers whilst doing overtime  I see you got a laugh from Dave T. No surprise there. Birds of a feather.

[redjonn]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

We can and certainly should loudly condemn the comments, We should also loudly explain why, we should also loudly lead by example in how redemption is gained and restitution is made. 

That isn't brushing things under the carpet. 

Racism, like misogyny and homophobia is a societal problem. We could be a light for how society can address that problem. Or we can castigate and cast out and contribute nothing to its solution. 

we agree then....

[bobbruce]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

They certainly don't seem to clamp down on internet use for non-work reasons either 

 

[Chris22]

17 minutes ago, Oxford said:

And the game needs more principled people not less.

 

Yes but extracating things so you can analyse properly and talk about things went missing in 1979 and hasn't yet come back into fashion. In fact it's further from that than ever right now.

Here, I'm just speaking as someone who's actually been to Swinton.

 

I agree with the first point, hence my view that sacking himself was disproportionate and education is more suitable.

With regards to the second point, I'm afraid I don't follow!

[Toby Chopra]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We can and certainly should loudly condemn the comments, We should also loudly explain why, we should also loudly lead by example in how redemption is gained and restitution is made. 

That isn't brushing things under the carpet. 

Racism, like misogyny and homophobia is a societal problem. We could be a light for how society can address that problem. Or we can castigate and cast out and contribute nothing to its solution. 

People at the top of an organisation set the culture and standards for all below them. It's a fundamental part of their job. If they can't do it, they shouldn't be in the job

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

With regards to the second point, I'm afraid I don't follow!

Swinton's next door to Salford where I was born and I had a bike.

[redjonn]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We can and certainly should loudly condemn the comments, We should also loudly explain why, we should also loudly lead by example in how redemption is gained and restitution is made. 

That isn't brushing things under the carpet. 

Racism, like misogyny and homophobia is a societal problem. We could be a light for how society can address that problem. Or we can castigate and cast out and contribute nothing to its solution. 

No need to preach to me... my mother was severely impacted by societies attitude towards her situation - a key component leading to her clinical depression and suicide attempt in later life. Nowadays that society has moved on and her situation is more everyday.

I felt the need to say this because maybe I misread your comments but they seemed to be preaching at me.

[Scubby]

 

4 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

They certainly don’t clamp down when I’m sat in my own living room. Not all of us rob their employers whilst doing overtime  I see you got a laugh from Dave T. No surprise there. Birds of a feather.

Dave I can't help you with  He is basically stealing a living, running on about 50% productivity. As you know, I have limited my time on here in recent months. This is a Saturday after all! You post count seems to be going up faster than the pulse rate of the anti-Wolfpack brigade!