Players aren't as mentally tough these days

[DoubleD]

It was interesting to hear Gareth Ellis mention this - that players aren't as mentally tough as when he was starting out. I think JP came out with something recently along the same lines - are they correct?

Does this explain the yo-yo form of some teams - the likes of Hull FC and Catalans, when they go behind they often crumble?........

What are the reasons behind this - societal? A cosy full time environment?

[Allora]

Like all things in life, some are and some are not.

I can think of plenty of players that are mentally tough and play on with severe injuries and never say die when their Team is on the end of a hiding they still line up to take the ball into the defense.

 

 

[Cheshire Setter]

Probably true, but like society in general people become a little less resilient due to the relatively safe (or perceived safe) environment we currently have.   Not much that can be done about that as none of us like to give up the luxuries of modern life I’m sure.

I blame modern stadia.   If we get some Hollywood set designers to replicate the changing rooms of Wilderspool, Naughton Park and the Watersheddings we could probably toughen modern players up a bit. Also maybe install an air raid siren, put them on rations and stick some Vera Lynn on an old gramophone. And maybe a half-time talk from that guy who won Britain’s Got Talent...*

 

* I’d like to point out that this is all in jest and I’m actually only 41 years old, and this is not the ramblings of a senile old hobo...

[Dave T]

I must admit, I am not a massive fan of hearing players criticise mental toughness.  I get what they are saying, but I'm not sure it is helpful.

[Shaggy]

4 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Probably true, but like society in general people become a little less resilient due to the relatively safe (or perceived safe) environment we currently have.   Not much that can be done about that as none of us like to give up the luxuries of modern life I’m sure.

I blame modern stadia.   If we get some Hollywood set designers to replicate the changing rooms of Wilderspool, Naughton Park and the Watersheddings we could probably toughen modern players up a bit. Also maybe install an air raid siren, put them on rations and stick some Vera Lynn on an old gramophone. And maybe a half-time talk from that guy who won Britain’s Got Talent...*

 

* I’d like to point out that this is all in jest and I’m actually only 41 years old, and this is not the ramblings of a senile old hobo...

Hey, I'm 40 and that all sounds pretty good to me. What's this Britain's Got Talent of which you speak? Is it like Opportunity Knocks?

[Cheshire Setter]

1 hour ago, Shaggy said:

Hey, I'm 40 and that all sounds pretty good to me. What's this Britain's Got Talent of which you speak? Is it like Opportunity Knocks?

Britain’s Got Talent is a show that appears on the TV in the evening after you get home from the afternoon’s rugby.   It’s something that one is forced to watch as ‘you’ve been out doing your stuff all afternoon whilst I was preparing dinner’...

It’s essentially the same as Opportunity Knocks but with all the risqué references edited out...  except for the F word which it seems is perfectly acceptable for Amanda Holden to use

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I must admit, I am not a massive fan of hearing players criticise mental toughness.  I get what they are saying, but I'm not sure it is helpful.

Where do we draw the line though? This wrapping up in cotton wool to not hurt anyone's feelings does not help develop mental toughness. 

Working in primary schools over the last decade in one capacity or another, there has been a clear decline in resilience of the children. I'd almost certainly say it's a cultural thing. The meltdowns that occur when things go wrong or unexpected are far greater and more prevalent than I've ever seen, and I hear the same from other primary school teachers in other schools too.

Coping strategies seem to not develop anymore, and a lot of this is because they haven't needed to or been helped to develop them - there either wrapped up and overprotected or they're just neglected and haven't been given good/any advice on what to do.

 

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

personal background and your upbringing has a major influence on your thinking/attitude for life in most matters, however the psychological aspect of sport is massively misunderstood in RL IMHO.

I've said before that there's a very interesting piece in the NRL coaching manual from a few years back with regards to psychology written by Peter Sharp.

RL players start their careers as children, they go through the hands of unqualified people for the most part, sometimes you might get the odd youth coach who gets how to motivate simply through their own personal experiences, but actually it's ore luck/random than any planned method. When they get to a higher level/influence of a pro club and they are developing as young adults they still do not have the life experience/wisdom that older players might have.

A player could go through their whole carers having not had any true coping mechanisms.strategies explained or instilled in them on how to deal with the varying aspects of playing. We see how psychology affects RL players when a team gets an absolute pasting despite on paper not being much differenc. We see it when teams both come back from a big deficit and lose fro a big lead, we see it when a player gives up chasing down or doesn't even make the effort at all, we see it in 'unforced' errors when fatigued, we see it in the stats when a player seemingly hasn't done much either in defence or attack and they've simply gone walkabout.

Weak coaches with respect to psychology are weak in terms of influencing players ability to hit their in game goals/targets, in influencing how they maintain performance throughout a game and performances from week to week. How players bounce back from errors/failures, even how they react to antagonism/confrontation. 

Lee Radford is frankly clueless in this dept, this he admits himself, this is why we've in part some absolute thrashings and yet have managed to perform very well at other times, it's also why he needs Ellis so much, without him we are massively off, not his actual physical presence but the mental strength he displays and has influence on others around him.

 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Where do we draw the line though? This wrapping up in cotton wool to not hurt anyone's feelings does not help develop mental toughness. 

Working in primary schools over the last decade in one capacity or another, there has been a clear decline in resilience of the children. I'd almost certainly say it's a cultural thing. The meltdowns that occur when things go wrong or unexpected are far greater and more prevalent than I've ever seen, and I hear the same from other primary school teachers in other schools too.

Coping strategies seem to not develop anymore, and a lot of this is because they haven't needed to or been helped to develop them - there either wrapped up and overprotected or they're just neglected and haven't been given good/any advice on what to do.

 

I suppose the problem is that we can highlight many examples of men from a few years back who could be described as maybe not as mentally tough as they looked on the outside - I am loathe to go too much into that as I don't think that description is fair. 

I'm also not sure how we measure mental toughness in an RL context. I think it is a difficult one that is a bit abstract, and not sure how helpful it is to question people's mental toughness publicly. 

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I must admit, I am not a massive fan of hearing players criticise mental toughness.  I get what they are saying, but I'm not sure it is helpful.

Why? I get the impression you think that 'mental toughness', the ability to deal with pressure and varying scenarios on the field, the ability to maintain performance is the same as what we regard as mental health, it isn't though they can be related to performance.

Mental health of a player can influence how they might perform, the same as it might in any aspect of life, work or otherwise, in some instances being at 'work' and being under pressure is a welcome diversion away from the problems a person may be having elsewhere. However criticising mental toughness on the rugby field is not the same as saying 'man up' and criticising mental health.

People react differently to all sorts of different influences, some work, some don't, often it's a failure to understand and often rejecting concepts because of preformed ideas and how ones peers may judge. RL as a whole has a far too simplistic view of mental toughness and indeed mental health though that's not as if it's much different to most parts of society. 

I think criticism of mental toughness is a good thing, it might wake up coaches, owners of clubs and indeed players themselves to re-evaluate how they do things, one so that they can perform better, but also so that they are able to deal with life stuff in a better way including their own emotional well-being and those around that individual.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

Society has gone too far with being soft with people. Discipline in Schools is non existant as the fear of doing anything is too great . Parents drive the kids to school and often do everything for them at home. We didnt have that when I was a kid. Parents are largely to blame.

Having said that some kids are mentally tough, as they may have just one parent and look after younger brothers and sisters. They make sacrifices for the family etc. Theres a few players in the game who have done this--Payne Haas for example.

[graveyard johnny]

always remember a cup final our amateur team was due to play in, four travelled by car to the ground, while getting out our "star man"(who had just done a week on nights) had his hand slammed and crushed  in the car door by one of the oafish forwards, OUCH! was he gonna miss the final though? was he eck! he scored 2 tries and had a blinder gurning the most painful expressions all the way through, next day he was in the pub celebrating the win with his hand in something that resembled a bird feeder having spent all evening after the match getting it sorted at a&e

[Wellsy4HullFC]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I suppose the problem is that we can highlight many examples of men from a few years back who could be described as maybe not as mentally tough as they looked on the outside - I am loathe to go too much into that as I don't think that description is fair. 

I'm also not sure how we measure mental toughness in an RL context. I think it is a difficult one that is a bit abstract, and not sure how helpful it is to question people's mental toughness publicly. 

I suppose it's highlighting a problem without offering a solution, which can be frustrating.

Mental toughness is a broad term. I'd assume he's taking about resilience and perseverance when things get challenging.

[gingerjon]

12 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I'd assume he's taking about resilience and perseverance when things get challenging.

I'd assume he's talking like any old man wondering when all the youngsters got so cheeky.

[Mr Plow]

I think the environment kids are brought up in now is a lot softer although I don’t buy into this snowflake generation. I think it’s good people are talking about mental health.

Kids who come through youth ranks these days though in rugby or football get everything given to them, kit, money, sponsors ect and they think they’ve made it before they actually have.

I think some of its society and some of its how sports not just rugby league treat young players

[Cheshire Setter]

26 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'd assume he's talking like any old man wondering when all the youngsters got so cheeky.

He’s on the field seeing it though, and as a fairly stable personality I’d like to think he has credible views.   If it was someone like Schofield just spouting off his personal diatribe I’d take it with a pinch of salt but I’m inclined to listen to Ellis.

I’m not a fan of the term ‘snowflake’ as it’s almost used as simplistic derogatory term by a generation that created the society that brings up the ‘snowflakes’.   So for every ‘snowflake’ there’s an older ‘blame-shifter’.

Anyway, back on topic - I don’t think we’re looking at individual mental health issues and personality disorders here just discussing ways at resolving a suggested resilience problem as member of a team:

I work in the aviation industry, and interestingly despite the progress made in safety over the last 20 years (through training, high procedural compliance and automation) we also seeing a bit of a drop in resilience.   In the old days, with less procedural control and compliance people would tend to ‘find a way out’ of a situation by thinking outside of the box.   These days it’s very common to see someone looking to somebody else for an answer or a rule in a manual.   What we are trying to do is bring back that ‘taking responsibility for your problems’ mindset.

I do think Ellis has a point and maybe each club should have a consultant Psychologist or Leadership trainer if they want to stay tough.   When Price came to Warrington the first thing he did was cancel warm-weather training for that year and take the squad to an army camp in atrocious weather, so he could identify individuals who would buy into his mental toughness policy.   He didn’t do it this year though, maybe the weather was actually too tough for an Aussie coach

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Cheshire Setter said:

He’s on the field seeing it though, and as a fairly stable personality I’d like to think he has credible views.   If it was someone like Schofield just spouting off his personal diatribe I’d take it with a pinch of salt but I’m inclined to listen to Ellis.

I’m not a fan of the term ‘snowflake’ as it’s almost used as simplistic derogatory term by a generation that created the society that brings up the ‘snowflakes’.   So for every ‘snowflake’ there’s an older ‘blame-shifter’.

Anyway, back on topic - I don’t think we’re looking at individual mental health issues and personality disorders here just discussing ways at resolving a suggested resilience problem as member of a team:

I work in the aviation industry, and interestingly despite the progress made in safety over the last 20 years (through training, high procedural compliance and automation) we also seeing a bit of a drop in resilience.   In the old days, with less procedural control and compliance people would tend to ‘find a way out’ of a situation by thinking outside of the box.   These days it’s very common to see someone looking to somebody else for an answer or a rule in a manual.   What we are trying to do is bring back that ‘taking responsibility for your problems’ mindset.

I do think Ellis has a point and maybe each club should have a consultant Psychologist or Leadership trainer if they want to stay tough.   When Price came to Warrington the first thing he did was cancel warm-weather training for that year and take the squad to an army camp in atrocious weather, so he could identify individuals who would buy into his mental toughness policy.   He didn’t do it this year though, maybe the weather was actually too tough for an Aussie coach

Aye, I think there are a lot of things that intersect when it comes to this kind of thing. I can tell you as a London fan from the time when Ellis started playing, there was at least one club who could go out there and win by 40 one week and then lose by 60 the week after. So it's not new - or at least, it was around when Ellis started playing.

That thing about the aviation industry. I wonder, in part, if it's because of overtesting of children/young people so that they end up believing that it's all about passing tests with right/wrong/what-the-examiner-wants answers and not enough about exploring the right options. Plus, there's a lot less tolerance from older people of young people getting things wrong in jobs now - it just doesn't happen. The idea that you can 'fail' and it not be a problem only seems to work for the very rich or very lucky. Those starting out now are managed to follow process and rules.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

I think we need to careful how we term mental toughness.

Mental wellness and a work ethic are two different things.

In someways life is easier and the ability to grind through life has been lost.

But I am also aware that being a full-time athlete is not the best job from a mental wellness perspective.

You get little distraction from being a player and clubs may not have the comradery they had 20 years ago.

Social media is not a good thing for everyone.

In the past being part-time would have dealt with a lot of the feelings of isolation that can lead to more serious mental health issues.

 

[Blind side johnny]

Shouldn't national service be mentioned at this juncture, not forgetting corporal punishment?

It never did them any harm don't you know!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

48 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

People love to say kids these days aren't as strong as they were back in their day. Well, The most likely group to commit suicide are males aged between 45 and 49, the rates of suicide are also falling, the younger you are the less likely you are to commit suicide, not only in your age group but as you age as well. At current rates when people who are young now are 45-49 they will be comfortably less likely to commit suicide than people who are that age today. 

A lot can happen between now and when these kids turn that age. 

Surely you'd be better comparing suicide rates of the same age groups over time also? Was it a similar story 30 years ago, fit example?

The "mental toughness" of those in there 40s is not massively relevent when talking about the mental toughness of kids in different time periods. And I'd also argue that suicide rates aren't the best indicator of it.

[Cheshire Setter]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

That thing about the aviation industry. I wonder, in part, if it's because of overtesting of children/young people so that they end up believing that it's all about passing tests with right/wrong/what-the-examiner-wants answers and not enough about exploring the right options. Plus, there's a lot less tolerance from older people of young people getting things wrong in jobs now - it just doesn't happen. The idea that you can 'fail' and it not be a problem only seems to work for the very rich or very lucky. Those starting out now are managed to follow process and rules.

It’s interesting that you postulated this, because most airlines and regulatory authorities are recognising that the old style of flight simulator testing and training (a black and white pass/fail of a known scenario) is outdated and not really improving the pilot’s ability to handle a ‘startle’ event where he/she faces something that they don’t know is coming.   The modern system being developed encompasses human factors to a much higher degree and accepts that humans will make errors.   The test is about showing that the crew can firstly prevent the startle event from distracting them from the primary role of keeping aircraft flying, and secondly managing the failure through use of all available resources to make a safe decision on where and how to land the aircraft.

Have you got some experience working in the industry, or just a passing interest?  Maybe you should consider it?

[Damien]

25 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

A lot can happen between now and when these kids turn that age. 

Surely you'd be better comparing suicide rates of the same age groups over time also? Was it a similar story 30 years ago, fit example?

The "mental toughness" of those in there 40s is not massively relevent when talking about the mental toughness of kids in different time periods. And I'd also argue that suicide rates aren't the best indicator of it.

I agree. Without any stats to back it up then it's just an opinion.

[Cheshire Setter]

8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

However all that is irrelevant because the truth is, since time immemorial old men have been telling young people they are soft

It’s a bit of both to be honest.

What we really need to do is have a senior league for over 55s that will guarantee close scores.   If any scores.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

41 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The rates as a whole are going down, so the number of young people committing suicide 30 years ago was higher, and people 30 years older are more likely to commit suicide. 

Similarly people who are 45-55 are drinking and abusing drugs more than previous generations of 45-55 year olds, they also abused drugs at a higher rate when they were 19-25 than 19-25 year olds do now. 

This is despite the fact young people these days do more exams, have less job security, earn less, have less access to the housing ladder  and are more likely to experience stressful life events such as redundancy and divorce than older generations were at their age.

The facts of the matter are, that in many many measures younger generations, those from around 18 to 38 are the first generations in a developed economy to have it worse than their parents generation, not that boomers would ever believe it. They are however coping with it much better, Less likely to cause themselves harm through suicide and drug and alcohol abuse (again, not that older generations would ever believe it) There is plenty of empirical evidence to show that younger generations are more resilient and have more tools to deal with this kind of stress and pressure than previous generations. 

However all that is irrelevant because the truth is, since time immemorial old men have been telling young people they are soft and they have never had it so easy and they would never be able to hack it back in their day, If you talk to Ellis this generation isn't tough enough, if you talk to Garry Schofield he would tell you Ellis's generation had it easier, if you spoke to Alex Murphy he would tell you Schofield's generation had it easy, if you spoke to Ken Traill he would tell you Murphy's generation didn't even know they were born, if you spoke to Albert Baskeville he would tell you Ken Traill had a life a luxury. Old men raging against the passing of time is pretty much a hobby 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the premise that people always go with the "back in my day" line. But, having been on the front line for 10 years, I've seen an obvious decline. Perhaps it's a locality thing. 

Changes in culture (and the bloody price of it) could be just as big as an effect on drug and alcohol dependency rather than people turning to it to cope. "Back in my day" there were a lot more places to drink and it was much more fun because there were a lot more people!

You'd need a lot more evidence than that to prove to me that it means people are mentally tougher these days.

[costa]

It's a combination of Gen Z frailty and #itsoknottobeok culture. 

Its invading every workspace. Honest conversations about performance are actively discouraged because staff are too soft to participate. In my office they'll either take 6 months off full pay or throw themselves off a roof. 

Imagine if another D-Day was needed. 

Who on earth would step up? Kyle, 19, taking a break from Fortnite?