Stealing the ball.

[cookey]

Anyone else getting tired of players continually trying to steal the ball in the tackle.Most teams seem to have one player who wants to spoil the game by constantly attempting to steal the ball.

Last night Sam Powell must have done it half a dozen times.I suspect it's a deliberate ploy by the coaches/player,as more often than not it happens on the first tackle.If they get away with it,they win the back the ball.If not and are penalised,they lose little as essentially the tackle count restarts.

In my view this needs to be stopped asap as it's ruining the game.If it was down to me,one warning to a player,next offence,yellow card.Ofcourse,then you get the team with the ball,trying to get a specific player sin binned.Alternatively,seven tackles from a penalty,like the 20m restart.One has to stop players believing it's worth while to constantly steal the ball/spoil the game through penalties.

 

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, cookey said:

Anyone else getting tired of players continually trying to steal the ball in the tackle.Most teams seem to have one player who wants to spoil the game by constantly attempting to steal the ball.

Last night Sam Powell must have done it half a dozen times.I suspect it's a deliberate ploy by the coaches/player,as more often than not it happens on the first tackle.If they get away with it,they win the back the ball.If not and are penalised,they lose little as essentially the tackle count restarts.

In my view this needs to be stopped asap as it's ruining the game.If it was down to me,one warning to a player,next offence,yellow card.Ofcourse,then you get the team with the ball,trying to get a specific player sin binned.Alternatively,seven tackles from a penalty,like the 20m restart.One has to stop players believing it's worth while to constantly steal the ball/spoil the game through penalties.

 

Are you referring to an attempted one on one steal or illegal play by playing at the ball in a tackle with more defenders?

The one on one steal is being attempted more and more, here and in the NRL. It is a high risk play as can easily lead to another set for the opposition or a penalty if more defenders join the tackle. It adds a bit of variety though and I'm ok with it as a tactic. 

If it is the illegal play you are referring to (I think it is) then yes, the warning and sin bin should come into play sooner as it is a blight on our game.

But then again the lack of playing the ball properly is a blight on our game. In fact the whole ruck area is a blight on our game and a reason why I watch much more NRL than British Rugby League now and I never thought I would say that.

 

[cookey]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Are you referring to an attempted one on one steal or illegal play by playing at the ball in a tackle with more defenders?

The one on one steal is being attempted more and more, here and in the NRL. It is a high risk play as can easily lead to another set for the opposition or a penalty if more defenders join the tackle. It adds a bit of variety though and I'm ok with it as a tactic. 

If it is the illegal play you are referring to (I think it is) then yes, the warning and sin bin should come into play sooner as it is a blight on our game.

But then again the lack of playing the ball properly is a blight on our game. In fact the whole ruck area is a blight on our game and a reason why I watch much more NRL than British Rugby League now and I never thought I would say that.

 

Yes,specifically,illegal play with two or more in the tackle and hoping to secure a scrum via a 'lost ball'.

If you try it on the first tackle,you lose little as the attacking side kick 20 m to touch and the tackle count re starts.As I say,last night,Sam Powell,surely with the agreement of Lam must have tried to steal the ball half a dozen times.I believe he got away with it twice,so Wigan regain the ball,whilst when he was penalised,he lost little,as the tackle count restarted and the defensive line was set.

There needs to be a deterant to trying to steal it in the first place.Either a warning and early card or seven tackles from the resultant penalty.

[Bod]

It's a Wigan thing, just look how many times Tomkins does it.

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, cookey said:

Yes,specifically,illegal play with two or more in the tackle and hoping to secure a scrum via a 'lost ball'.

If you try it on the first tackle,you lose little as the attacking side kick 20 m to touch and the tackle count re starts.As I say,last night,Sam Powell,surely with the agreement of Lam must have tried to steal the ball half a dozen times.I believe he got away with it twice,so Wigan regain the ball,whilst when he was penalised,he lost little,as the tackle count restarted and the defensive line was set.

There needs to be a deterant to trying to steal it in the first place.Either a warning and early card or seven tackles from the resultant penalty.

Agreed.

I know people will come back to me and say it is professional sport and winning is all that counts etc. etc. but coaches and players setting out to deliberately break the laws of the game is just plain wrong. 

And I am not say Wigan, I mean in general. 

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, cookey said:

Last night Sam Powell must have done it half a dozen times.

It's about playing the odds, when you've signalled responsibility of the ball carrier knock-on becomes the go to decision so stealing is inevitable and worth it most times.

[dkw]

Both teams were at it constantly last night and it's a big part of why the tackled and ptb's are such a massive mess currently. As with the trying yo win penalties that the rfl clamped down on a few weeks ago they need to sort this now, empower refs again. 

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, dkw said:

Both teams were at it constantly last night and it's a big part of why the tackled and ptb's are such a massive mess currently. As with the trying yo win penalties that the rfl clamped down on a few weeks ago they need to sort this now, empower refs again. 

I don't think it's just that the delaying tactics in the ruck are negative and messy as well.

Risk averse coaching at its best.

[cookey]

My point is that its deliberate and is spoiling the game,the players,coaches and referees must know it.Particularly on the first tackle,there is little to lose from trying it as essentially the tackle count just restarts 29m up field.

The only realistic thing I can think of is a first penalty and warning,then sin bin for second offence.As I say,Powell must have tried it six times last night,so for me,first offence,penalty and warning,second offence yellow,third offence,yellow,hence red.Frankly Powell spoilt my enjoyment of the game and it must surely be known and condoned by Lam.

Specific individuals in other teams do it as well.

[Bulliac]

All teams do it to be fair, maybe some more than others, but all are involved.

It's difficult for referees, to be fair, as players are obviously allowed to try and prevent the off-load by covering the ball and unless the ball comes out as if fired from a gun it's hard to say what the reason was as defenders are constantly, legally, 'pawing' at the ball. Often though it really is just a loose carry - even when it happens to your side.

[DavidM]

The ruck up here is a mess , over 90% of pens must be there . And the ball steal pen is a huge part . Half the time the ref is guessing and so it’s inconsistently ruled . To me the default should be knock on . For to long it’s seemed to be the other way . If you can’t keep hold of it hard luck , unless it’s 100% stone cold clear reefing motion . Contact in a tackle , not clear or the ball popping out should be knock on . It’s impossible with 2 or 3 man tackle for there not to be contact with the ball . And you’re told to lock up the ball - those ones where they do that and it cones out or is let go , or pulling a trapped arm out and the player letting it go are rubbish pens . Put the onus on the man with the ball as a default start . You’re strong enough , have ball control . And to many errors penalised .What about make the one on one rule a two on one rule .... Ray Warren advocated that . These pens are important so don’t throw them around like confetti .

then after that make a player stand up ... play it WITH their foot , give the ruck more structure and we may be a bit tidier .

The complete obsession with speed at the ruck has made it a total farce 

 

[Dunbar]

It shouldn't be the ref's responsibility. 

It should be the players and coaches who should hold their hands up and admit they are ruining the game. 

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

m also not sure why we are so keen to call a knock on every loose ball. Some balls don't really leave the player, others don't go forward but we call knock on for everything

Yeh that’s right . One of those I find a bit unfair is when a player loses it , the ball just touches an opposition player and yet the guy was gonna recatch it anyway . They call that a knock on but it’s a little pedantic . You see opposition players just trying to get a touch on it to do that on purpose . 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, cookey said:

My point is that its deliberate and is spoiling the game,the players,coaches and referees must know it.Particularly on the first tackle,there is little to lose from trying it as essentially the tackle count just restarts 29m up field.

The only realistic thing I can think of is a first penalty and warning,then sin bin for second offence.As I say,Powell must have tried it six times last night,so for me,first offence,penalty and warning,second offence yellow,third offence,yellow,hence red.Frankly Powell spoilt my enjoyment of the game and it must surely be known and condoned by Lam.

Specific individuals in other teams do it as well.

I must admit, I'm coming round to this way of thinking, that the punishments should be harsher. It is blatant cheating and professional fouls. I understand that high tackles happen at times, and even offsides can be misjudged etc. but nobody steals by accident.

[Allora]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Its not half as common in the NRL and im confident its a consequence of having two refs. In SL refs basically have to guess, there are miles away and have a million other things to look at so it becomes a bit of a lottery. Attackers let the ball go a bit easier so they will win some they shouldn't, and defenders will be all over the ball because they will win some they shouldn't, they might as well because whether they do or don't, they will lose some they shouldn't. 

Two refs get more of the decisions right so players try it on less, if your strip is called a strip nearly every time, you don't strip. If your loose carry is called a loose carry nearly every time you don't carry it loose.

Im also not sure why we are so keen to call a knock on every loose ball. Some balls don't really leave the player, others don't go forward but we call knock on for everything

Cameron Munster stole the Ball last night against the Knights and stole it three times in one game against Penrith.

If it is one on one its perfectly ok.

The attacker has to hold onto the ball, if it is a tackle with multiple defenders that is a different case.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

Its a skill. Probably the best exponent of it is Cameron Munster. One on One he often can perform a ball steal to perfection.

The one where there are two or more in the tackle who pull away so its just one person, again requires good communication in defenders. I think it adds to the contest between players.

It really is up to the attacker to carry the ball properly. Too many players have a poor carry technique.

 

 

[doc]

1 hour ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

Its a skill. Probably the best exponent of it is Cameron Munster. One on One he often can perform a ball steal to perfection.

 

 

 

Nah, Gavin 'Clinch the Pinch' was the Master.

[metallithrax]

I see no reason for the defender(s) to have their arm between the ball and the attackers body unless it's a one on one.

[Futtocks]

It is all part of the coaches/players v officials arms race. In defence, you try to pinch like Clinch, but in attack, some players try to make it look (to the referee) as if the ball's been reefed out in a multiple-player tackle, to try and gain a penalty.

[ivans82]

Quite a lot of the ball stealing in the tackle comes when the players progress has ended but the Ref doesn`t call held/release  quick enough and it just becomes a mini tug of war .I would rather held was called when the tackled players progress was halted , rather than waiting for him to be wrestled to the ground .Might stop the 3rd and sometimes 4th tacklers coming in late too.

[Whippet13]

21 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Its not half as common in the NRL and im confident its a consequence of having two refs. In SL refs basically have to guess, there are miles away and have a million other things to look at so it becomes a bit of a lottery. Attackers let the ball go a bit easier so they will win some they shouldn't, and defenders will be all over the ball because they will win some they shouldn't, they might as well because whether they do or don't, they will lose some they shouldn't. 

Two refs get more of the decisions right so players try it on less, if your strip is called a strip nearly every time, you don't strip. If your loose carry is called a loose carry nearly every time you don't carry it loose.

Im also not sure why we are so keen to call a knock on every loose ball. Some balls don't really leave the player, others don't go forward but we call knock on for everything

Two referees is the easiest solution and will get us closer to NRL standards. The whole PTB area was cleaned up a few weeks back and the game has been a much better spectacle for it but cheaing is now gradually creeping back in again from players on every single team, both in attack and defence.

One of the main reasons I gave up any interest in soccer many years ago was the cheating/diving in that sport and I find it very frustrating that RL is now not much better and in some aspects is worse. I understand players want to win but its a short sighted view as it makes the game a poorer spectacle, which turns people off and has a negative impact on the game and consequently drives down viewers/attendances/income.

I wouldn't be adverse to some sort of post game review system where every game is looked at and players who clearly offend are given a fine, make it £1000 per offence and we would immediately have a clean PTB in every single game.

[JohnM]

17 hours ago, Futtocks said:

It is all part of the coaches/players v officials arms race. In defence, you try to pinch like Clinch, but in attack, some players try to make it look (to the referee) as if the ball's been reefed out in a multiple-player tackle, to try and gain a penalty.

Indeed. It's part of Powell's training regime at Cas, and they are by far the worst offenders, closely followed by Leeds.

[Damien]

Threads like this and holding down in the tackle always amuse me in the way that certain clubs always get the blame, like everyone else are angels and play to some sort of Corinthian ordeal. All teams push the boundaries and all are equally guilty. This has been the case for as long as I can remember and probably since the sports inception.

[JohnM]

Agree entirely. In fact,  I go further in saying that some clubs are more equal than others, especially one coached by Powell.

[Jinking Jimmy]

On 15/06/2019 at 10:21, Bod said:

It's a Wigan thing, just look how many times Tomkins does it.

It’s such a “Wigan thing” that there’s not a player from any other team that does it.