How far can Featherstone go this year?

[Private Baldrick]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Except that just isnt true. We can see examples from lots of sports in lots of countries that shows that simply isnt the case. Not least the biggest RL comp on the planet.

A simple question, and it is a yes or no answer,

Should whoever comes bottom of super league this year be relegated and replaced by the winner of the championship promotion play off final?

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Except that just isnt true. We can see examples from lots of sports in lots of countries that shows that simply isnt the case. Not least the biggest RL comp on the planet.

Totally different sporting environment and culture and you know it - by virtue of us being a historic sport in Europe we do not have what I assume you'd see as the luxury of franchised spots.

If we had that over here someone would be piling money into an NCL club with decent facilities, they aren't because they're cut off from the top eschelons of the game. People do pump money into NCL sized equivalents in other sports with pyramids in this country though.

[fairfolly]

Hands up any multi millionaires out there who is prepared to throw millions of pounds at Dewsbury, Batley, Barrow, Sheffield,Swinton,Rochdale,Bradford,etc,etc,etc, No, I thought not, no takers so the argument is irrelevant.

[Tommygilf]

38 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We can have them, we can change the culture. The sporting culture is not a monolith stuck in time. It changes and has changed massively throughout my lifetime. 

And you wouldn't see someone plowing money in to an NCL side. People dont pump money in to NCL sized sides in other sports. 

Ambitious idea but in practice would annoy more people than it would please imo. 

People do. I've personally been involved in two what I'd describe as NCL sized union clubs that have spent 6 figures on their wage bills. Teams in the championship like Doncaster are the same to a bigger level further down the line. My friends have been involved in the same in Cricket. 

People spend daft money on daft things. 

Thinking of it on the reverse side, Yorkshire Carnegie have beem screwed by a major investor pulling out in part due to legitimate fears of the premiership going closed shop. 

People want to watch their team in the top as they have an emotional connection to them. Having realistic expectations for the team doesn't contradict that.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

We can have them, we can change the culture. The sporting culture is not a monolith stuck in time. It changes and has changed massively throughout my lifetime. 

And you wouldn't see someone plowing money in to an NCL side. People dont pump money in to NCL sized sides in other sports. 

Crawley, FC United, Salford City...

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The two examples you use dont really support your point. RU will likely go to a franchise system, Carnegie lost their funding because they A)couldnt afford a bid at promotion under P+R and b) couldnt really afford to exist as a championship club. The possibility of RU going to a closed shop was way down the list

And cricket doesn't have the system you suggest. Nobody is investing millions in village cricket to get them to county level. 

Carnegie were an example of a club that could have existed in the premiership where the investor has gone. 

My other RU examples of "NCL sized" or in Doncaster and Rotherhams case formerly NCL sized clubs that people have invested in to get the up the leagues you have ignored. We're talking silly money swishing around in the level 5 to 9 in RU.

In cricket no one would challenge county cricket as an establishment, but plenty want to be top of the Bradford league or the sheffield league for example with some former county players making a decent living outside of the county game.

 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

All of those clubs are way above NCL level

Relative to where they started in the football pyramid? I don't think so. NCL Premier is effectively National Conference in Football. 

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

A simple question, and it is a yes or no answer,

Should whoever comes bottom of super league this year be relegated and replaced by the winner of the championship promotion play off final?

Yes because that's the structure that everyone agreed to play under before the season started.

It would be ludicrous to change it to save Leeds from being relegated or prevent Featherstone from being promoted.

[Private Baldrick]

3 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Yes because that's the structure that everyone agreed to play under before the season started.

It would be ludicrous to change it to save Leeds from being relegated or prevent Featherstone from being promoted.

Absolutely.

[bamfordsbeans]

Before the ex Man Utd players got involved, Salford were in the 8th tier of the soccer pyramid playing in front of crowds of about 100.

Most NCL clubs would get more than this on a Saturday.

Soccer is always going to attract the money men,but it surprises me that there are more investors in the 5th tier of their game than in the premier one of ours.Clubs like Fylde and Solihull Moors that were once nothing much more than "pub teams" have attracted money that most RL teams can only dream of.

[wasginger]

How far can Featherstone go ? The players will decide that on the pitch by the results they achieve. If they achieve a place in S/L. Job done and then I'm sure things will fall into place within the club itself.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

Was at Post Office road on Sunday and Fev should be congratulated on what they've achieved there.

Very tidy little ground.

As for getting promoted, I think Toronto are well ahead on the pitch.

Wouldn't put it past Fev though to make the play off final.

What would be funny then would be watching people on here back track about promoting both finalists to make a top flight of 14.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Relative to everything. The facilities teams at that level have and the scale at which they operate is championship level not NCL

That's not relevant. You were responding to someone who suggested people invest in lower tier soccer teams but not NCL teams because there is no pathway for NCL teams. Those teams were/are in the equivalent league as NCL teams. Regardless of their setup, they prove that assertion correct. Investors are willing to invest in soccer teams well down the pyramid as they know there is a pathway.

You keep mentioning scale. A Salford city or a Crawley wouldn't be nearly as scalable if there was no promotion to the EFL. Do you think they would have got investment if there was no promotion to the EFL? They likely would have reduced there scalability even within the Vanarama North division or wherever they were when they got taken over.

[rhinos78]

1 hour ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Was at Post Office road on Sunday and Fev should be congratulated on what they've achieved there.

Very tidy little ground.

As for getting promoted, I think Toronto are well ahead on the pitch.

Wouldn't put it past Fev though to make the play off final.

What would be funny then would be watching people on here back track about promoting both finalists to make a top flight of 14.

Whats even funnier is the people so stringent on the format staying as it is because theyr dying to see Leeds relegated, becoming a bit hesitent about it because they dont think Fev are ready to be promoted. 

Cant have it both ways.

Champinionship playoff winners get promoted, if thats Fev, they go up. 

If the structure did change, they still go up, because theyr the championship winners.

[Smudger06]

8 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Except that just isnt true. We can see examples from lots of sports in lots of countries that shows that simply isnt the case. Not least the biggest RL comp on the planet.

No we can't see that, there's little to no private investment into NSW Cup & Queensland Cup Clubs precisely because there's no access to the top tier. Those Clubs are funded by their respective State Bodies whom are funded by the ARLC, and also by elaborate Dual Registration and Partnership Systems with the NRL Clubs themselves. Furthermore crowds are anywhere between League 1 & Championship level with the exception of PNG Hunters obviously, also probably because there's no hope of promotion. 

[Smudger06]

What we are witnessing is the very beginning of a recovery from massive decline and damage, caused mainly by not having a FAIR, simple, clear and easy to grasp promotion system for many a year. We will see season on season gradual strengthening of the Championship so long as promotion and relegation is maintained at both ends....This having a positive knock on effect for both the SL & League 1. 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

What we are witnessing is the very beginning of a recovery from massive decline and damage, caused mainly by not having a FAIR, simple, clear and easy to grasp promotion system for many a year. We will see season on season gradual strengthening of the Championship so long as promotion and relegation is maintained at both ends....This having a positive knock on effect for both the SL & League 1. 

Agreed. I've no problems with mechanisms being in place to safeguard clubs from themselves but they should take the form of salary cap audits and things like minimum off field standards. We certainly don't want to see a boom and bust cycle with clubs stretching beyond their means but that was happening under licensing anyway. P&R have given the Championship and bottom of SL a bit of a boost which should translate to improving standards across the board.

[Tommygilf]

6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Salford FC do not have a clear pathway through the pyramid the investment in facilities alone would be tens of millions of pounds. Aa they stand right now they wouldnt get in to the football league. 

They have literally just been promoted to League 2 this year.

Edit: they also have a 15 year aspiration/plan to play championship football. 

[MADREDNIGE]

15 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Yes because that's the structure that everyone agreed to play under before the season started.

It would be ludicrous to change it to save Leeds from being relegated or prevent Featherstone from being promoted.

Or any other team/s

[fevtom]

6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

And I said they wouldn't invest in NCL because they are completely different.

You are talking about teams with 5k stadiums and teams who play in parks  

Also the underlying point is complete nonsense, even if they were the same the criteria the FA set to move up through the pyramid are for more onerous and far more strictly enforced that anything anywhere in RL. 

Salford FC do not have a clear pathway through the pyramid the investment in facilities alone would be tens of millions of pounds. Aa they stand right now they wouldnt get in to the football league. 

Well this is a silly comment. They ARE in the football league and have a better ground than many teams that have played in the championship.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Apologies, they have already made the changes they needed to make to play league football 

London Bronco's wouldn't be able to, nor would Sheffield or Swinton  And no NCL sides which are apparently the comparable RL clubs would be able to. 

Though as I said, the criteria the FA set to move up through the pyramid is far more onerous than RL. There are SL sides who wouldn't be allowed to be League 2 sides. The idea that its the lack of a pyramid that stops millions flowing in to the NCL is just crazy

The NCL to SL is the extreme example of what you have repeatedly said shouldn't happen for Championship clubs and their fans. Why shouldn't they aspire to SL?

Cutting off the route kills off the chance of almost all investment. Manchester Rangers are a prime example. 

I get there should be realism and sound business behind sport. But there has to be some dreaming and some hope??

[Tommygilf]

26 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Who was dreaming of Salford.FC getting to the championship or Premier League before the footballers millions? None, how many of the fans of the teams they play against harbour similar ambitions?

NCL sides arent set up for playing Professional RL, they are nowhere near. Most of their players wouldnt be interested in devoting more of their time to being L1 players, they have jobs and lives and mortgages, most of their fans already support other pro clubs. What investor is out there waiting to plough millions in to St Pat's or Egremont if only they could progress through the pro ranks? Who is seeing the necessity and opportunity in another pro club in Wigan or Hunslet or Cumbria or hull? 

The fact is your argument doesnt make sense, these clubs in the lower leagues have the pathway and dont have the backing, that is the problem they dont have the backing you say is created by that pathway. When we have had that pathway, as we had for decades, they still didn't get that backing.

The premise that keeping that pathway open creates and environment where that backing will come is demonstrably false. No club in the history of the game has started as an amateur side, won promotion to L1, then the championship, then SL. The only club to play in L1 and then the championship then SL was one which did it via franchising, Celtic Crusaders.

Opening the door between L1 and the NCL wouldnt see millions pumped in to clubs like Kells and hunslet parkside, keeping the door open between SL and the championship has not seen millions flow in to clubs like fev, leigh, fax, et al. 

If the door being kept open will attract these millions for clubs like fev, the door is open, where are they?

The point is that by closing off SL to those below they may as will become NCL level clubs. That there is no investment in NCL clubs proves my point that they would be at serious risk of disintegrating at the top level. 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

There is no investment in the NCL because its an amateur comp. Open the door there would still be no investment in it. 

There is an open door now to SL, where are the millions being pumped in the heartland championship clubs to scale them to SL level?

Your first sentence, you simply cannot prove yet examples from other sports - Salford City for example - show that it could potentially happen and it would be a lot easier to do it RL as you readily admit. 

Your second sentence is conveniently qualified with 'heartland clubs' just so you can avoid the obvious examples of Toronto and Toulouse (Toulouse technically being a heartland club anyway). Outside of that:

Featherstone, the original point of this thread, have invested significantly in the stadium and facilities and have probably spent as much as is feasible, mainly from an investor in Mark Campbell, to get a team capable of challenging onto the field.

Leigh - New stadium and Degsy is still bankrolling them with a push to SL in mind. Would he do that if there was no promotion? 

Bradford have had significant investment with the stated purpose from their owners that they want to be back in SL. They are building steadily as well and I expect them to go harder net year. Doubt they'd even have an investor and would probably be dead now if the pathway wasn't there.

York - new stadium and a decent investment in the squad. Sure, not millions but still an investment and a dream to go up the pyramid. 

It will be interesting to see what happens at Widnes as I assume the club will have long term goals to get back to SL. 

Outside of this, I wonder what investment Newcastle and London Skolars would get if there was no pathway in place.

Can you honestly sit there and say that all these clubs would get the same level of investment if there were no pathway to SL? Even in a licensing system?

 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

I'll reference Salford again (RL this time). Salford at the minute are a viable SL club. They have a decent stadium and a team competing on the field that has a real shake of making the top 5. This is despite poor attendances, recent mismanagement and a poor/no youth and reserve set-up. 

How can Salford, a SL regular and now competing at the right end of the table, be able to make a go of it but teams like Featherstone, Leigh, Fax etc be deemed too unscalable to give it a go? 

I'll go back to one of my original points. This is sport. If you can run your club well and make a couple of shrewd management and playing appointments anything is possible. I'd rather not artificially prevent that from happening. I'm also now a Salford City FC fan...

[Tommygilf]

27 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Your first sentence, you simply cannot prove yet examples from other sports - Salford City for example - show that it could potentially happen and it would be a lot easier to do it RL as you readily admit. 

Your second sentence is conveniently qualified with 'heartland clubs' just so you can avoid the obvious examples of Toronto and Toulouse (Toulouse technically being a heartland club anyway). Outside of that:

Featherstone, the original point of this thread, have invested significantly in the stadium and facilities and have probably spent as much as is feasible, mainly from an investor in Mark Campbell, to get a team capable of challenging onto the field.

Leigh - New stadium and Degsy is still bankrolling them with a push to SL in mind. Would he do that if there was no promotion? 

Bradford have had significant investment with the stated purpose from their owners that they want to be back in SL. They are building steadily as well and I expect them to go harder net year. Doubt they'd even have an investor and would probably be dead now if the pathway wasn't there.

York - new stadium and a decent investment in the squad. Sure, not millions but still an investment and a dream to go up the pyramid. 

It will be interesting to see what happens at Widnes as I assume the club will have long term goals to get back to SL. 

Outside of this, I wonder what investment Newcastle and London Skolars would get if there was no pathway in place.

Can you honestly sit there and say that all these clubs would get the same level of investment if there were no pathway to SL? Even in a licensing system?

 

Cheers mate said it better than I could!