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saintspete83

More sports moving to BT

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So now BT sports has the rights to WWE wresting what is usually shown on sky arena. This is now added to BT Sport's coverage of Premier League, Champions League and Europa League football, Premiership rugby, MotoGP and UFC fighting. 

This makes me ask 2 questions. 

1. Is it possible BT will bid for RL? 

2. Will this help us get a better deal due to the fact skysports is losing more content? 

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18 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

So now BT sports has the rights to WWE wresting what is usually shown on sky arena. This is now added to BT Sport's coverage of Premier League, Champions League and Europa League football, Premiership rugby, MotoGP and UFC fighting. 

This makes me ask 2 questions. 

1. Is it possible BT will bid for RL? 

2. Will this help us get a better deal due to the fact skysports is losing more content? 

 

WWE isn't comparable to BT taking on Super League as they've simply bought the rights - opposed to SL where they'd need to take on the whole production too. That's not to say I don't think they will but when you think about Sky already having all that side of things set up, all they have to do is bid for the broadcast rights, where as BT would be starting from scratch and would have to factor that in to any bid. 

Regards your second point I'd say maybe it does. Sky appear to be moving to a model of only covering major US sports and UK sports that they do the production for. They've let go of a lot of sports that they used to simply just buy the rights for in recent years. SL obviously falls into the category where Sky do the production and I think they know as long they offer something competitive then Elstone and Co will be happy to accept, as all parties know it would be a huge task with big risks for another broadcaster to pick up from scratch. 

Edited by hunsletgreenandgold
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I'd wait until its clear in which direction the new CEO wants to take BT.... and whether he and its board continue to see sports as important for its primary Telco activities...

Edited by redjonn

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1 hour ago, saintspete83 said:

So now BT sports has the rights to WWE wresting what is usually shown on sky arena. This is now added to BT Sport's coverage of Premier League, Champions League and Europa League football, Premiership rugby, MotoGP and UFC fighting. 

This makes me ask 2 questions. 

1. Is it possible BT will bid for RL? 

2. Will this help us get a better deal due to the fact skysports is losing more content? 

 

And, in possibly related news, BT have just sent me an email saying the price is going up £4 a month.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

WWE isn't comparable to BT taking on Super League as they've simply bought the rights - opposed to SL where they'd need to take on the whole production too. That's not to say I don't think they will but when you think about Sky already having all that side of things set up, all they have to do is bid for the broadcast rights, where as BT would be starting from scratch and would have to factor that in to any bid. 

Regards your second point I'd say maybe it does. Sky appear to be moving to a model of only covering major US sports and UK sports that they do the production for. They've let go of a lot of sports that they used to simply just buy the rights for in recent years. SL obviously falls into the category where Sky do the production and I think they know as long they offer something competitive then Elstone and Co will be happy to accept, as all parties know it would be a huge task with big risks for another broadcaster to pick up from scratch. 

Not a massive issue to be fair, BT could subcontract Sunset + Vine, who do the Premier League, FA Cup, Premiership RU and Champions Cup for BT, as well as Pro 14,  Cricket World Cup, Scottish Prem, and rowing.

Sky a while ago were reported to have split rights into primary (ie enough to get people to keep sky sports) and secondary, aiming to keep most primary rights. There's been a lot of secondary rights bleeding away, replaced by cheap rights to fill time.

However, assuming SLE is primary, I don't think that this translates into increased leverage for Elstone. Including costs of £50,000 per televised game (likely on the low side), and the 100 domestic games sky produces the TV deal is worth about £45m/year. At £30/month/consumer keeping a subscription because of SLE (higher than the pure sports costs to account for people stopping sky altogether if it went),  you need 125,000 religious followers of SLE. Going through the BARB four screen dashboard from the most recent weeks (excl. magic weekend) viewing figures are as follows:

16/5 Leeds Cas: 71k

17/5 St Helens Salford: 90k

18/5 Wigan Catalans @ Nou: 63k Arena + 55k Main Event

30/5 Hull FC Catalan CC: 93k 

31/5 KR Warrington CC: 123k

7/6 Warrington Catalan: 82k

8/6 Wakey Leeds: 84k


Those numbers aren't great, especially given how many PL Football teams there are around the heartlands.

Edited by Chamey
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From a personal point of view have Sky for the RL (SL,NRL & Championship) & BT for Moto GP both on the Virgin platform so would be better if it was all on one however, I just can't see BT covering RL, they are too far into bed with Union to want to upset them and probably believe there's only one type of rugby that exists nationally.

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I really like BT’s enthusiastic presentation of sport (or at least the direction they give to the production companies).

But ultimately they have a smaller subscriber base than Sky so unless they were to enter into a partnership with a FTA broadcaster, I’d be wary of Super League going to them.

I do think they’d freshen up the presentation of the sport no end though.

 

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2 minutes ago, Chamey said:

Not a massive issue to be fair, BT could subcontract Sunset + Vine, who do the Premier League, FA Cup, Premiership RU and Champions Cup for BT, as well as Pro 14,  Cricket World Cup, Scottish Prem, and rowing.

Sky a while ago were reported to have split rights into primary (ie enough to get people to keep sky sports) and secondary, aiming to keep most primary rights. There's been a lot of secondary rights bleeding away, replaced by cheap rights to fill time.

However, assuming SLE is primary, I don't think that this translates into increased leverage for Elstone. Including costs of £50,000 per televised game (likely on the low side), and the 100 domestic games sky produces the TV deal is worth about £45m/year. At £30/month/consumer keeping a subscription because of SLE (higher than the pure sports costs to account for people stopping sky altogether if it went),  you need 125,000 religious followers of SLE. Going through the BARB four screen dashboard from the most recent weeks (excl. magic weekend) viewing figures are as follows:

16/5 Leeds Cas: 71k

17/5 St Helens Salford: 90k

18/5 Wigan Catalans @ Nou: 63k Arena + 55k Main Event

30/5 Hull FC Catalan CC: 93k 

31/5 KR Warrington CC: 123k

7/6 Warrington Catalan: 82k

8/6 Wakey Leeds: 84k


Those numbers aren't great, especially given how many PL Football teams there are around the heartlands.

Telegenic do most of the work already  for SL.

Also, the average sky bill is worth £46, more obviously for sports, if we say £50 (cos it's a.round figure but its.probably on the low side, I read somewhere that the average sky sports subscriber bill was about 750.per year, which would be around 62.50per month)

Then you are probably looking closer to 75k people whose sky subscription was significantly influenced by RL being on Sky. We are comfortably above that  we will generally see somewhere between 150k and 300k watching the 3 games per week, accounting for churn you would have to think there are somewhere between 175k and 225k as a.rough estimate of people who watch a decent amount of RL on sky

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47 minutes ago, Chamey said:

Not a massive issue to be fair, BT could subcontract Sunset + Vine, who do the Premier League, FA Cup, Premiership RU and Champions Cup for BT, as well as Pro 14,  Cricket World Cup, Scottish Prem, and rowing.

Sky a while ago were reported to have split rights into primary (ie enough to get people to keep sky sports) and secondary, aiming to keep most primary rights. There's been a lot of secondary rights bleeding away, replaced by cheap rights to fill time.

However, assuming SLE is primary, I don't think that this translates into increased leverage for Elstone. Including costs of £50,000 per televised game (likely on the low side), and the 100 domestic games sky produces the TV deal is worth about £45m/year. At £30/month/consumer keeping a subscription because of SLE (higher than the pure sports costs to account for people stopping sky altogether if it went),  you need 125,000 religious followers of SLE. Going through the BARB four screen dashboard from the most recent weeks (excl. magic weekend) viewing figures are as follows:

16/5 Leeds Cas: 71k

17/5 St Helens Salford: 90k

18/5 Wigan Catalans @ Nou: 63k Arena + 55k Main Event

30/5 Hull FC Catalan CC: 93k 

31/5 KR Warrington CC: 123k

7/6 Warrington Catalan: 82k

8/6 Wakey Leeds: 84k


Those numbers aren't great, especially given how many PL Football teams there are around the heartlands.

Interesting that out of the non-main event games, both Cup games exceed Super League viewing figures.

Edited by Chris22

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Haven't BT been losing sport recently - some of their European football packages?

Anyway, I don't think Sky will be too bothered about WWE - it's very much a declining fanbase..................the halcyon days of 90s-00s are long gone

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1 hour ago, Chamey said:

Not a massive issue to be fair, BT could subcontract Sunset + Vine, who do the Premier League, FA Cup, Premiership RU and Champions Cup for BT, as well as Pro 14,  Cricket World Cup, Scottish Prem, and rowing.

Sky a while ago were reported to have split rights into primary (ie enough to get people to keep sky sports) and secondary, aiming to keep most primary rights. There's been a lot of secondary rights bleeding away, replaced by cheap rights to fill time.

However, assuming SLE is primary, I don't think that this translates into increased leverage for Elstone. Including costs of £50,000 per televised game (likely on the low side), and the 100 domestic games sky produces the TV deal is worth about £45m/year. At £30/month/consumer keeping a subscription because of SLE (higher than the pure sports costs to account for people stopping sky altogether if it went),  you need 125,000 religious followers of SLE. Going through the BARB four screen dashboard from the most recent weeks (excl. magic weekend) viewing figures are as follows:

16/5 Leeds Cas: 71k

17/5 St Helens Salford: 90k

18/5 Wigan Catalans @ Nou: 63k Arena + 55k Main Event

30/5 Hull FC Catalan CC: 93k 

31/5 KR Warrington CC: 123k

7/6 Warrington Catalan: 82k

8/6 Wakey Leeds: 84k


Those numbers aren't great, especially given how many PL Football teams there are around the heartlands.

I see no reference to the other income stream for Sky here, advertising. People watch less live TV now, sport is still one of the main bits of TV that people watch live, where ads can be more prominent. 

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3 hours ago, Dave T said:

I see no reference to the other income stream for Sky here, advertising. People watch less live TV now, sport is still one of the main bits of TV that people watch live, where ads can be more prominent. 

I was just about to say that Dave but you beat me to it. Any figures regarding the subscription numbers needed is pure guesswork without knowing the advertising income that Sky get from Rugby League.

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You would be surprised at how cheap advertising on sky sports is. The value of pretty much any sport compared to its subs is pretty negligible

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

You would be surprised at how cheap advertising on sky sports is. The value of pretty much any sport compared to its subs is pretty negligible

Please enlighten us then, how much does one advert cost at 20:30 on a Friday night?

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Just now, Damien said:

Please enlighten us then, how much does one advert cost at 20:30 on a Friday night?

Well its dependent on a few things but it would be in the hundreds of pounds. 

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9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Please enlighten us then, how much does one advert cost at 20:30 on a Friday night?

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

I see no reference to the other income stream for Sky here, advertising. People watch less live TV now, sport is still one of the main bits of TV that people watch live, where ads can be more prominent. 

Advertising revenue is fairly negligible for sports tv. People tune in for KO, go for a drink or leak at half time and come back when the second half starts, there's only 5 or so mins of advertising a match. 

This website https://www.thedrum.com/news/2017/02/22/how-much-does-it-cost-advertise-uk-tv-heres-what-channel-4-itv-and-more-charge-slots puts sky sports at:

The average estimated cost of a 30-second slot on Sky Sports during peak time can fall anywhere between £60 to £750. Daytime rates for the channel come in at £10 to £50. A early peak time slot on BT Sport will come at a price between £20 to £200 for advertisers while a night time slot, like those offered during the NBA Action cost a modest £5 to £30. 

 

The approximate cost to advertise on Sky One during daytime shows like Stargate Atlantis can be anything between £150 to £250. A 30-second slot during peak time between the likes of the Simpsons can cost anything from £650 to £1,150.

So for 100k people, not more than a couple of hundred quid, two grand or so a match, £200k/yr.

Edited by Chamey

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3 minutes ago, Chamey said:

Advertising revenue is fairly negligible for sports tv. People tune in for KO, go for a drink or leak at half time and come back when the second half starts, there's only 5 or so mins of advertising a match. 

This website https://www.thedrum.com/news/2017/02/22/how-much-does-it-cost-advertise-uk-tv-heres-what-channel-4-itv-and-more-charge-slots puts sky sports at:

The average estimated cost of a 30-second slot on Sky Sports during peak time can fall anywhere between £60 to £750. Daytime rates for the channel come in at £10 to £50. A early peak time slot on BT Sport will come at a price between £20 to £200 for advertisers while a night time slot, like those offered during the NBA Action cost a modest £5 to £30. 

 

The approximate cost to advertise on Sky One during daytime shows like Stargate Atlantis can be anything between £150 to £250. A 30-second slot during peak time between the likes of the Simpsons can cost anything from £650 to £1,150.

So for 100k people, not more than a couple of hundred quid, two grand or so a match, £200k/yr.

Over the course of a 7-10pm slot there are probably in the region of 60 adverts so £12k in revenue based on your £200 figure.

A Sky Sports subscriber wouldn't even equate to £1 for a full day, and a portion of these certainly wouldn't have it for RL only, so it's certainly not insignificant on the figures.

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3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Over the course of a 7-10pm slot there are probably in the region of 60 adverts so £12k in revenue based on your £200 figure.

A Sky Sports subscriber wouldn't even equate to £1 for a full day, and a portion of these certainly wouldn't have it for RL only, so it's certainly not insignificant on the figures.

That's the wrong calculation though because if RL wasnt shown something else would. So the value is the value added not the value in total.

Skys total ad revenue is about £1b its total revenue is about £15b

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3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

That's the wrong calculation though because if RL wasnt shown something else would. So the value is the value added not the value in total.

Skys total ad revenue is about £1b its total revenue is about £15b

Only if Sky had something else to show. You can just as easily say the same about subscriber figures and the fact that we don't know what added value Rugby League offers there and how màny would have Sky anyway. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and you can't be selective for one and not the other.

Your second paragraph is completely irrelevant unless you know the ad revenue from Rugby League, which you don't.

At the end of the day this is all complete guesswork and no one knows but Sky.

 

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14 minutes ago, Damien said:

Only if Sky had something else to show. You can just as easily say the same about subscriber figures and the fact that we don't know what added value Rugby League offers there and how màny would have Sky anyway. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and you can't be selective for one and not the other.

Your second paragraph is completely irrelevant unless you know the ad revenue from Rugby League, which you don't.

At the end of the day this is all complete guesswork and no one knows but Sky.

 

The second paragraph was simply to highlight that the vast majority of Skys revenue is subs not ads. 

Sky do have other things to.show, darts on a Thursday and football on a Friday Saturday. Both generally rate higher than RL.

However my point isnt that we arent valuable, more that ads are a small part of it. The difference between RL and whatever would replace it is negligible.

However what I've said time and time again about RL.is that although its reach isnt as big as it needs to be those who are fans are incredibly committed and with the advent of things like adsmart the 'reach' issue is going to be less important and ads more targeted. 

That wont in itself make us more valuable because, as I say, ads are a very small part. But it can make us a bit more 'sticky' as there is a very committed portion of say 175k-225k people who can be reached in exactly the way advertisers want. 

It's one if the reasons I dont believe these rumours Sky dont care about RL. There is a niche we fill very very well

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Of course individual slots are dirt cheap. But companies buy blocks of hundreds and thousands of slots, and slots around live TV contribute to those packages. 

Sky can afford to lose some sports, and have done so in recent years. That may work well for us, or on the flipside they may also be happy for us to go too.

Whilst SL may not be the main draw on Sky Sports, it can certainly contribute to the perceived value. They must be getting close to the point where it could really affect their brand. 

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16 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Anyway, I don't think Sky will be too bothered about WWE - it's very much a declining fanbase..................the halcyon days of 90s-00s are long gone 

I agree and these viewers are also being further split by the WWE Network app and may be further split by the emergence of All Elite Wrestling, which has some fanfare behind it.

If Sky wanted to they could probably wait and get the rights for All Elite Wrestling at a smaller price, should it manage to gain support from the depths of ITV 4.

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BT already show a Union game on a friday night,so they are unlikely to want a league game on at the same time.They also show football in the sat teatime spot and union on a sat and sun afternoon.So realistically,I cant see them interested in league in similar slots.

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