Clogiron Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: 7 figures minimum, but its not like there isn't demand and stadiums don't make money in London. Its also likely that the RFL/SL would be able to access grants and cheap loans. If the game showed some long term thought and ambition we could be renting a stadium out instead of hiring one. I agree with your last point totally, but can you see the organisation that wanted to charge some clubs for entry to the CC, disposed of many development officers and staff in the name of cost cutting or the other that won't pay for two referees, video refs at all games and cuts the monies that go to the championship clubs undertaking such a venture individually or jointly? Imagine the howls that would come from the 'traditional' clubs and diminishing fan base, they would probably hear it all the way to Toronto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleep1673 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Workington Town, an "Established" club, formed in 1944, 36 years later, 1980, Fulham joins the league. 39 years later, London Broncos are still being called an "Expansion" club. I don't remember people whinging about Town & 'Haven (or Blackpool & Huyton) being called expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Are we really describing the idea of the RFL investing in land and building a stadium in London as 'minimum 7 figures'! 53 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: 7 figures minimum, but its not like there isn't demand and stadiums don't make money in London. Its also likely that the RFL/SL would be able to access grants and cheap loans. If the game showed some long term thought and ambition we could be renting a stadium out instead of hiring one. Really, you think that buying the land for and constructing a premier sports stadium in London could go even higher than a million pounds! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: I assumed we were talking about the zeros, so 10s of millions Well maybe multiples of 10s of millions. I have a quick look and the 17,250 capacity stadium in Brentford looks like it is costing £70m although that does include sole residential construction. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 The RFL made an operating loss of £2M in 2017. I would live our sport to own and run a premier stadium in London but it simply is not feasible. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 31 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Absolutely not. I don't think the RFL have had a single idea since they learned about discounts and multi-buys. What the game could and should do, and what it will do are sadly two very different things. I think it's also a case of what it should have done, there has been time's in the past such as the Launch of SL when the money was available and costs wouldn't have been as astronomical, and there was many stadiums in London that housed such as Speedway, Greyhound racing or Stock Cars that could have been puchased and refurbished at a fraction of the start up costs of the present day. But once again the clubs wanted everything for themselves to lavish on player contracts only to be in the mire again a few short years later. Best to kick it onto that big pile in the corner labelled 'Missed Opportunities' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, Bleep1673 said: Workington Town, an "Established" club, formed in 1944, 36 years later, 1980, Fulham joins the league. 39 years later, London Broncos are still being called an "Expansion" club. I don't remember people whinging about Town & 'Haven (or Blackpool & Huyton) being called expansion. You could add to that Donny & Sheffield, when do we stop such labelling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denton Rovers RLFC Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 16 hours ago, Mumby Magic said: We have occasionally stayed over in London for away games. I love the ground to be honest but on the other hand there doesn't seem much to do in Ealing. I find it strange that the ground is always mentioned with the Broncos, but Skolars have nearly hit the 20 years semi-pro mark and ALL at the same stadium! It costs skolars a ton of money to use the facility, ideally they'd love to move elsewhere but similar to Broncos, where would that be and more importantly will the fans follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: That was a one off though, generally the RFL makes a small profit or loss, though that's deliberate as really the reason they exist is to distribute that money. The RFL's revenue is about £28m a year, they aren't as poor as we think and you would hope (though as always there is the RFL's competence caveat) that if they were to have such an asset, that revenue would go up when they use it. Yes, revenues are circa £28M. They have around £7.5M cost of sales and around £11M payments on behalf of clubs. The rest they use for grass roots development. This leaves (as you say) typically a small operating profit or loss every year. I am no expert on corporate loans for construction but the interest payments alone for a £50M loan are £4M a year at 8% and so some club payments or grass roots development would need to be sacrificed for interest payments alone. The costs of interest and capital repayment are very risky. The other part of the assumption I would question is the use of the stadium as a revenue generating asset. If we go for a 30k stadium (and larger and the costs are huge) what utility value will that be? I can't see many sports looking for a venue of this size as soccer/Union has its own spaces and American Football is typically hiring stadia that hold 60k+. Which sport would you expect to hire a 30k venue in London? If it is for events (music etc) then this is certainly an option but again I don't think there is a lack of space in London for events and it is quite a competitive landscape. Don't get me wrong... I would love for it to happen, I just cannot see how it would be feasible. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleep1673 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 51 minutes ago, Clogiron said: You could add to that Donny & Sheffield, when do we stop such labelling! You see, I just accept them as established, even though Eagles were later than "Fulham". As for nothing to do in Ealing, big Shopping centre, Cinemas, restaurants, not far from Southall if you want a curry, Ealing Common, site of the first Nando's. Castle Bar Park IS next to the ground, but as you have to wait for a connection, it's usually quicker to walk from West Ealing, where there are 4 trains per hour even on a Sunday to/from Paddington. It's as accessible as most Northern Grounds. It could be that a lot of you are frightened of going to London, and find it too much trouble to get public transport, you'd rather drive to away games, and as parking is limited, you don't want to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: Well maybe multiples of 10s of millions. I have a quick look and the 17,250 capacity stadium in Brentford looks like it is costing £70m although that does include sole residential construction. I said years ago that the RFL and London Broncos should have been looking to partner Brentford, or some other London club, in building a stadium in London. Internationals against France etc could have been played there at it and it could have been the home of Rugby League in the South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddleworth Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 15 hours ago, THE RED ROOSTER said: Some quick points in response. Ealing is ideal for alowing all the clubs teams to train together which has not been the case previously. I do not think that Trailfinders as a ground puts people off attending as opposed to the lack of atmosphere caused by 2,000 rattling around the Stoop or 800 rattling around the Hive. When demand exceeds supply attendance wise then it's time to start thinking about taking a game or two to a ground with a bigger capacity in West London. I am surprised by the touching faith in "marketing". To market a product you have to have something people want to buy into. Get a consistently winning London side first with a connection to the area then the marketing aspect comes into play. Above all else where is the money coming from, If you do not own your own ground then you cannot generate commercial revenues from using the ground as a conference facililty etc. What you do pay is rent and the rent at Trailfinders is a much better deal than Brentford for example. Ah yes money, not that your reading this Gavin Willacy but if there are investors you have hinted about wanting to get involved in London Broncos whose surname is not Argyle. Perhaps another bloodnut missing his or her league. Can you get them to come forward? London Skolars have indeed been playing at New River for 2 odd years and their crowds are nothing to shout about underscoring the points being made above about the Broncos. It must be damned hard work to get anything together down in the smoke pertaining to RL. Great little club. Full of admiration for the players and staff, considering travelling and the upheaval involved. They have produced some great players, pulling them off the streets. Many years ago, travelled down with Featherstone Rovers academy to play them. Played on a rough and ready school field and battered us to death. Scarsbrook was just coming through the ranks. The only alternative I can see is to move Buckingham Palace up north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 3 hours ago, nadera78 said: New forum rule - anyone suggesting the Broncos relocate has to name the stadium they should move to. Should put a stop to that line of conversation. As to crowds, well, I've said about a dozen times on here this season alone: no-one knows the club exists! You kind of, I don't know, actually, maybe, have to make your presence known. Secondly, it's all very well putting on a nice deal, like the free beers on Thursday night, but if you don't tell people you're doing it then it's a waste of time - and sending tweets to people who already follow the club doesn't achieve anything. Well done 3 hours ago, Mr Frisky said: QPR, Leyton Orient, Wimbledon, etc etc You are an idiot. Why would any of those places be better? They are in places where people already have a local sports team by definition. What market should be targeted? Clue, working class soccer fans have less money and already have a sport. "You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 59 minutes ago, Bleep1673 said: etc etc It could be that a lot of you are frightened of going to London, and find it too much trouble to get public transport, you'd rather drive to away games, and as parking is limited, you don't want to go. your right on your last paragraph for.... a once an hour bus to local station, local station to main line station, train to Kings cross... after that I'd have to study the rail links to get to Ealing but hopefully just one more train... Yep I'd rather drive for the flexibility and doesn't take any difference in time considering the public transport connections.... There again much better to get the away clubs coach I guess... Having said that I've liked my experience at Bronco's... the bar and barbecue food on offer is good.... But it is like a lower league amateur union ground... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssexRL Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Bleep1673 said: Workington Town, an "Established" club, formed in 1944, 36 years later, 1980, Fulham joins the league. 39 years later, London Broncos are still being called an "Expansion" club. I don't remember people whinging about Town & 'Haven (or Blackpool & Huyton) being called expansion. Maybe expansion is the wrong word - I prefer non heartland. There is a difference because the sport is not established down here. It’s not going to have the same media coverage as it does in Cumbria or be played in local schools for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Im not sure it would need to be that big. As ive said before if we were to go for a national stadium id be talking to LUFC about buying in to a rebuilt Elland Road. Any RL specific stadium would be caught between being far too big for club side, and not really big enough for the big events. I would think for London you would go for a 15k stadium. Then it can be used for the Broncos, CC semi-finals, Id hold a lower league finals day there, England Knights games, amateur finals, amateur 9s, masters, tag/touch, schools games not even necessarily finals, just let every school in London hold a home game there. It wouldn't need to be overly fancy, id have no problem with being like bigger, newer Lamport with the beer gardens, BBQ's, food trucks. A hub and a focal point for the London RL community of which the Bronco's are just the pinnacle. As for external events, I think you will always find football clubs and RU clubs looking to share, you would have the Bronco's using it to start with, You aren't going to get an NFL side but probably a BAFA side, 15-20k with good food and drink might get you some bands. Im not saying the RFL are going to become billionaires from it but it would be a gamechanger for the game in London by its existence and im confident it could pay for itself. As I say, I would love to see it happen. If I won the Euromillions I would even build it myself! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Clogiron said: The price of land, nevermind availability and the cost of building even the most basic stadium, 7 figures, means that is never going to happen I don't always like saying this out loud on case it happens but a Skolars /Broncos ground share at New River could work.... The athletics track distance does my head in though.... Get rid of that and rebuild a couple of new stands and alternating home games could work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonM Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Bleep1673 said: It could be that a lot of you are frightened of going to London, and find it too much trouble to get public transport, you'd rather drive to away games, and as parking is limited, you don't want to go. Parking at both Ealing & Skolars is way easier than many northern grounds. Don't remember the details, but weren't Haringey Council looking to offload New River a few years back? A site like that where you can never, ever build housing, or where the council retains ownership but you have a long-term lease might be a lot more affordable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Bleep1673 said: Parking is limited, you don't want to go. Parking is £5 literally pitch side so shouldn't be an issue... Book it on the Broncos website! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, JonM said: Parking at both Ealing & Skolars is way easier than many northern grounds. Don't remember the details, but weren't Haringey Council looking to offload New River a few years back? A site like that where you can never, ever build housing, or where the council retains ownership but you have a long-term lease might be a lot more affordable. Skolars/Broncos ground share a facility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Bob8 said: Well done You are an idiot. Why would any of those places be better? They are in places where people already have a local sports team by definition. What market should be targeted? Clue, working class soccer fans have less money and already have a sport. Now now Bob, no need to resort to petsonal abuse because someone doesn't think like you - this isn't the BBC RL HYS page. Ok to save more personal abuse from you, just leave the Broncos where they are and what ever idea you have next will be 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denton Rovers RLFC Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said: I don't always like saying this out loud on case it happens but a Skolars /Broncos ground share at New River could work.... The athletics track distance does my head in though.... Get rid of that and rebuild a couple of new stands and alternating home games could work IMHO it wouldn't, Skolars want to aim to be the premier club in London for one thing, you won't lose the athletics track, no way. Similarly to trailfinders it's slap in the middle of a residential zone, so one of the main council notes in their minutes over the last development in 2014 (new pitch/5 aside/tennis courts et al) stipulated as an absolute that the noise from the stadium would not impinge on the locality, that means no pop concerts. I really cannot see NRS being developed in any meaningful way toward a 10,000 plus capacity, the local authority simply would not allow it, my opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denton Rovers RLFC Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 double post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denton Rovers RLFC Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 triple post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said: IMHO it wouldn't, Skolars want to aim to be the premier club in London for one thing, you won't lose the athletics track, no way. Similarly to trailfinders it's slap in the middle of a residential zone, so one of the main council notes in their minutes over the last development in 2014 (new pitch/5 aside/tennis courts et al) stipulated as an absolute that the noise from the stadium would not impinge on the locality, that means no pop concerts. I really cannot see NRS being developed in any meaningful way toward a 10,000 plus capacity, the local authority simply would not allow it, my opinion of course. It's less residential than Ealing though....think there would be more chance but I see your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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