gingerjon Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 13 hours ago, cookey said: The ICC claimed that 97% of tickets were sold prior to the start of the cricket world cup.It seems that some 20% just dont bother taking up their seats. I haven’t checked but there’s been availability throughout - often good availability - for games not involving India or England. There must have been some released back before the tournament. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: I think the super group format suited RL, I think it is a mistake to move away from it. Not really because there will be a few blow outs but because it will leave the competition with very slow start and not much momentum, risks being something of a procession where the winning team only plays 1 game against a tier 1 nation, wont guarantee us the big games and in fact guarantees we wont see the big 3 play each other It probably wont make or break the world cup, but I think we will come to regret it. These are all personal of course but I have a different perspective. I don't think we can look to carry a tournament like the World Cup by simply playing the 'big three' against each other in both the group and then the latter stages. In fact if we do that it makes the sport look small time. Let's have the start of the tournament as a celebration of international Rugby League, with teams from countries that we will only see play here once every 10 or 15 years. We can focus on the big teams when we get to the sharp end of the tournament. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 13 hours ago, Damien said: The format wasn't why the 2000 World Cup was a disaster though. It was one of the reasons. I’d say it was the reason behind the poor crowds in Hull and St Helens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: We can, but I think that to grab the wider public imagination we need big competitive games throughout the comp. I cant wait to see Tonga play. I'm not sure that's the case for casuals and none fans. There is a big chance, that Australia get to the final winning every game by 50points plus and that's the image people take away from the comp. There is a big chance we dont get big spectacles like Samoa v Tonga, NZ v Tonga, England v Australia, England v NZ etc. We will get big games without us having to contrive to engineer them. The last world cup gave us a huge upset in the quarter finals with Fiji beating New Zealand and then we got the epic semi final between England and Tonga. Let's not try and plot the teams progress through the tournament to ensure the 'big' games - let's just trust that the sport and the competition will deliver great entertainment. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 I often think England v Oz in the group stages can be an anti climax tbh, particularly as England usually lose!!!! An England group stage of games versus say Samoa, France and PNG could easily give us decent runouts but three good wins to get the momentum going. In the last few World Cups, the best group games havent featured the big three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: We need to hope that's the case but there is also good chance it isnt. How's there a good chance it isn't? Once you get to the Quarter Finals and Semi Finals it is inevitable that the teams will be very similar to the last World Cup, unless there are any major shocks which would be news itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: We need to hope that's the case but there is also good chance it isnt. International Rugby League can be entertaining without New Zealand, England and Australia playing each other. It is pessimistic in the extreme to say that the World Cup may not be entertaining or have great games. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Damien said: How's there a good chance it isn't? Once you get to the Quarter Finals and Semi Finals it is inevitable that the teams will be very similar to the last World Cup, unless there are any major shocks which would be news itself. We shouldn't forget that we were bloody close to an Oz v Tonga final last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Just now, Dunbar said: International Rugby League can be entertaining without New Zealand, England and Australia playing each other. It is pessimistic in the extreme to say that the World Cup may not be entertaining or have great games. I followed Scotland in 2013, plus many big games, plus Samoa - tbh these are the games we should be pushing. We very rarely get to see these teams on our shores, I'd pay good money to watch Samoa v Tonga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Dave T said: I followed Scotland in 2013, plus many big games, plus Samoa - tbh these are the games we should be pushing. We very rarely get to see these teams on our shores, I'd pay good money to watch Samoa v Tonga. So would I, but I'd be concerned about the tournament's impact with the wider public where that was the best game on offer in the first 3 weeks. Lots of interesting match-ups for the connoisseurs, but no blockbusters to reach out more widely with. Without supergroups, the best match ups in the first half of the tournament would - at best - be Tonga v Samoa, Australia vs PNG, NZ vs Fiji and England vs France. Other than the first, there's a fair chance that all will still be quite one-sided. I fear that without at least a couple of games between the big 4 in the group stage, we'll struggle to catch the general public's interest in the tournament, and it'll be too late by the time the quarter finals arrive. Other sports have the strength in depth to ensure good match ups in the group stages. We're not quite there yet so I'd be inclined to have two super groups so we at least have a major fixture on the first and second weeks to focus attention on. Perhaps I'm wrong, maybe 3 convincing try-laden wins from England in the group stage would be good visual material to push on social media, and we can try and build up the Aussies as the evil enemy on the other side of the draw doing the same thing. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: They can, absolutely. And I'm not saying there won't be group games. More simply that this increases the risks that there will be fewer and guarantees the games or have to sell to the general public arent the games that will most easily capture the public's imagination. This makes it much harder for us to get the level of visibility we want. It's not an insurmountable hurdle but it does make things harder and I think we could be confident of doing much better had we stuck to a format which guaranteed more, bigger and easier to sell games. I'm just not a big fan of the 'big game' at the beginning of the tournament where we all say "well, it doesn't really matter who wins this big game because they will both be in the semi finals anyway" How can you describe a game as a big game when it doesn't matter who wins! Let the big big teams play each other when it matters and it matters who wins... and let the other nations provide their own entertainment which they absolutely capable of. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said: So would I, but I'd be concerned about the tournament's impact with the wider public where that was the best game on offer in the first 3 weeks. Lots of interesting match-ups for the connoisseurs, but no blockbusters to reach out more widely with. Without supergroups, the best match ups in the first half of the tournament would - at best - be Tonga v Samoa, Australia vs PNG, NZ vs Fiji and England vs France. Other than the first, there's a fair chance that all will still be quite one-sided. I fear that without at least a couple of games between the big 4 in the group stage, we'll struggle to catch the general public's interest in the tournament, and it'll be too late by the time the quarter finals arrive. Other sports have the strength in depth to ensure good match ups in the group stages. We're not quite there yet so I'd be inclined to have two super groups so we at least have a major fixture on the first and second weeks to focus attention on. Perhaps I'm wrong, maybe 3 convincing try-laden wins from England in the group stage would be good visual material to push on social media, and we can try and build up the Aussies as the evil enemy on the other side of the draw doing the same thing. We'll see. But there will be strong matchups in the group stages, they just wont necessarily be with the big 3. But the big 3 games can still be fascinating - the NZ v Samoa game in 2013 was one of the tournament highlights for example. As was Scotland v Tonga and Italy. We need to be better at getting this context out there. Group games have long lead ins, meaning we have plenty of time to sell these to the local areas and wider public. Saving the big match ups for the knockout stages is fine, and tbh is what people expect. England can sellout against 3 smaller teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris22 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 I also disagree that we need big matches in the group stages. If we are looking to attract a new audience, they probably wouldn't know who a strong nation is and who a week nation is. They may, for example, think that a group game between Ireland and France is a huge match, as these are two big rugby union nations. I think we all significantly overestimate how much the general public or even sporting public know about our sport. I've spoken to people over the years who have a general interest in sport yet either don't know we exist or think we are rugby union, especially down south. For me, the group games between smaller nations are possibly more important at the group stages. They provide more even contests and there is more on the line. I'm aiming to get to as many matches as I can in 2021 and at least all of those in my town. But I would have no hesitation in going to a Scotland vs Jamaica game for instance. It would have more of an appeal to me than many of the potential "supergroup" games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 And ultimately, every game should be an event. It should involve, music, food, beer, kids playing Rugby, dancing, entertainment for the kids, fireworks, light shows, cheap seats, luxury VIP packages - every single game, no half passed events - everybody should leave every event saying 'wow'. Now, why are we all discussing this on this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dave T said: But there will be strong matchups in the group stages, they just wont necessarily be with the big 3. But the big 3 games can still be fascinating - the NZ v Samoa game in 2013 was one of the tournament highlights for example. As was Scotland v Tonga and Italy. We need to be better at getting this context out there. Group games have long lead ins, meaning we have plenty of time to sell these to the local areas and wider public. Saving the big match ups for the knockout stages is fine, and tbh is what people expect. England can sellout against 3 smaller teams. Yeah I'd agree with most of that as regards ticket sales in particular locations. I suppose what I'm thinking about more specifically is how this all works on TV, where we will get a rare opportunity to reach out to a much wider than normal audience. I'm hoping we're going to get Saturday and Sunday afternoon slots on BBC 1 - two windows a week where we get to show the best we've got to the whole country. England will have one, perhaps Aus/NZ and Tonga will share the other. We have to provide games that maximise our opportunity here. I'm kind of in two minds, especially when reflecting on our conversation about the women's world cup. I think we can probably promote any England game successfully to a wider, non-RL TV audience. As long as RFL/BBC do the hard work on getting the players' personal stories and sporting narratives out there, and they've shown they can when they try, then it probably doesn't matter if England's group games are comfortably won against mid and lower tier opponents. It might even help to attract viewership, (English) people like to see any England team smashing it. I'm just not sure this transfers to the rest of the tournament, where I think we want to be able to show games between teams that are a/ potential tournament winners and b/competitive. I think we'd have to ensure that the best possible/most even match ups that the other big 4 teams have in their groups are given the prime time slots, over successive weekends. Careful scheduling needed but I think it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said: Yeah I'd agree with most of that as regards ticket sales in particular locations. I suppose what I'm thinking about more specifically is how this all works on TV, where we will get a rare opportunity to reach out to a much wider than normal audience. I'm hoping we're going to get Saturday and Sunday afternoon slots on BBC 1 - two windows a week where we get to show the best we've got to the whole country. England will have one, perhaps Aus/NZ and Tonga will share the other. We have to provide games that maximise our opportunity here. I'm kind of in two minds, especially when reflecting on our conversation about the women's world cup. I think we can probably promote any England game successfully to a wider, non-RL TV audience. As long as RFL/BBC do the hard work on getting the players' personal stories and sporting narratives out there, and they've shown they can when they try, then it probably doesn't matter if England's group games are comfortably won against mid and lower tier opponents. It might even help to attract viewership, (English) people like to see any England team smashing it. I'm just not sure this transfers to the rest of the tournament, where I think we want to be able to show games between teams that are a/ potential tournament winners and b/competitive. I think we'd have to ensure that the best possible/most even match ups that the other big 4 teams have in their groups are given the prime time slots, over successive weekends. Careful scheduling needed but I think it can be done. I accept some of those concerns, but I think watching some of the lesser (arguably more interesting) teams battling for a spot in the knockouts to meet the big guns will be intriguing. England, if successful may play Samoa, France, PNG, Fiji, New Zealand and Oz. I think that schedule is pretty perfect for TV without shoe horning another game versus the Aussies in at the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: We know, from experience that whilst this might interest you or me it doesnt hold the same interest to the wider public. I would be incredibly confident that Australia v England outsells Jamaica v scotland two or three teams. We have to give the people what they want to just hope they buy what we want to sell We also know from experience that England failing to turn up against Australia in the big opening game - which will only ever be a dry run for a knock out fixture down the line - really kills the mood. It's never helped sell the tournament. It should be ditched as an idea. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: We know, from experience that whilst this might interest you or me it doesnt hold the same interest to the wider public. I would be incredibly confident that Australia v England outsells Jamaica v scotland two or three teams. We have to give the people what they want to just hope they buy what we want to sell But your aim for Jamaica v Scotland would reflect that - you would probably be looking at 12-15k target crowd and a red button slot on BBC basically appealing to RL fans. I think it is 15 live games on BBC TV, I'm confident we can create 15 special events for TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: But those games invariably sell the most tickets It's a nice theory and I'd love it to be the case but a world cup built around france v ireland and wales v PNG, or England v Italy is a lot harder to sell than one built around England v Australia, samoa v Tonga, NZ v Fiji There will be 31 matches played in the men's tournament... we can have all of this and more. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Maybe we should just have England vs. Australia in a 31 game Ashes series... give the public what they want. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, scotchy1 said: We can, but I think that to grab the wider public imagination we need big competitive games throughout the comp. I cant wait to see Tonga play. I'm not sure that's the case for casuals and none fans. Casual and non fans are just happy to see England winning. If I had to bet, I would say that England comfortably beating a couple of teams in the group stages would do more for the momentum of the tournament than seeing that them lose a tight competitive game to Australia. The problem is that us rugby league fans will tell the casual and non fans that England beating France or Scotland is rubbish and a waste of time. We have to start selling our game better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugbyLeagueGeek Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 37 minutes ago, Chris22 said: I think we all significantly overestimate how much the general public or even sporting public know about our sport. I've spoken to people over the years who have a general interest in sport yet either don't know we exist or think we are rugby union, especially down south. Completely agree with this. England racking up a big scoreline against someone like France and scoring some spectacular tries in the process would definitely capture the general public's imagination. And if it's a close and competitive game against France, then all the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, Dave T said: I accept some of those concerns, but I think watching some of the lesser (arguably more interesting) teams battling for a spot in the knockouts to meet the big guns will be intriguing. England, if successful may play Samoa, France, PNG, Fiji, New Zealand and Oz. I think that schedule is pretty perfect for TV without shoe horning another game versus the Aussies in at the start. I'm not sure we'd get quite that schedule. The first four you list are likely to be the second tier of seeds, so we'd only play at best two of them - one in the groups, one in the quarter final. It would be more like: Samoa, Jamaica, Russia in the group, followed by Fiji, NZ, Oz in the knockout. And that's OK for England, as I said, I think we can promote any of those games to the wider TV audience successfully. However, Aussie vs Ireland or NZ vs Cooks aren't necessarily games we want to put in front of primetime terrestrial audiences, but I think that can probably be avoided. I'm now more upbeat than I was earlier in the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said: Casual and non fans are just happy to see England winning. If I had to bet, I would say that England comfortably beating a couple of teams in the group stages would do more for the momentum of the tournament than seeing that them lose a tight competitive game to Australia. The problem is that us rugby league fans will tell the casual and non fans that England beating France or Scotland is rubbish and a waste of time. We have to start selling our game better. Exactly. Who on earth knows the quality of the teams that England have played to get to the semi finals of the Women's Football World Cup... they just want to see them win and score some goals. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluded pom? Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: Exactly. Who on earth knows the quality of the teams that England have played to get to the semi finals of the Women's Football World Cup... they just want to see them win and score some goals. Thailand anyone? I know England never played them but you get the gist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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