fighting irish Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 He might yet MOK, he might yet. My view is that he is playing Devils Advocate. While the ''dreamers'' come up with the big ideas, he's sounding an alarm, warning us all not to weaken the existing structure while we attempt to stimulate growth elsewhere. We need to take heed of his warnings and new plans to spread the game should include contingencies to manage the risks and avert the worst of Parksider's predictions. That's the responsible pragmatic paternal approach and I see it as a valuable contribution to the debate. The problem I have with his position, is that he openly confesses his belief that it's impossible to develop the game anywhere else, other than where its already played. As a corollary of that belief, he opines any attempt to spread the game into new areas, is a waste of time and money and worse, very likely to jeopardise the (extremely fragile) status quo. I am diametrically opposed to his point of view. I believe our game is undeniably excellent. I believe that because its excellent, it is (and will be) very appealing to new people the world over if its presented in a confident and professional way (as evinced by the spontaneous appearance of new fledgling nations in recent years). So while I value his input, I'm afraid he wouldn't get my vote, to steer the ship. He seems resigned to the inevitable decline of our sport and offers nothing (no ideas) to slow the rate of decline, let alone stop the rot completely and stimulate growth. It would break my heart to see our game continue to deteriorate in the public eye, or in terms of participation numbers, or standards of play on the field, so its not enough, to do nothing, to stand by and just accept a hopeless, withering view of the future. In my opinion, we have to grow or die. We have to speculate, to some extent. We need leaders who are real believers in the value of our sport, who are genuinely proud to represent us and confident in the games ability to garner new people in increasing numbers, as our existing followers age and die away and who will make serious detailed plans to ensure the games survival and long term prosperity. Here's the rub, I don't think we can rely on the RFL to do it all for us. We as individuals, can't afford to stand aside and wait for our saviour to appear. If we love the game, we should get involved, do more. Start kids teams, support amateur clubs, create new student and school teams, become a referee, coach, organiser or fund raiser. Build the game in some small way, wherever you live. That's what's happening in Belgrade, in Nigeria, in Jamaica, in Brazil, in Norway etc etc. If they can do it, starting with nothing, why can't we in Cumbria, Yorkshire or Lancashire, or anywhere else for that matter? We should turn our attention to these efforts and really celebrate and publicise, new clubs in new areas wherever they appear. (We are often contemptuous of them). It doesn't matter whether they can compete with heartland clubs. We should encourage them to stick at it and welcome them into the fold, offer our advice, and cooperation to nurture their development. All most of them want (when they start) is a little advice, and someone to play against. Let Super League and RFL try to manage the top end while we, the lovers of the game, mobilise and develop the grass roots wherever we can. Bob Brown of Hemel Hempstead will tell you, Parksider is wrong, it can be done if you want it enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, fighting irish said: Great post I don’t agree with Parky’s fatalism on expansion either. I do tend to agree with his central argument that expansion without player development isn’t expansion, however. And while I’m not anti-Toronto, I have severe doubts that gambling with nigh-on 125 years of British rugby league tradition to accommodate here-today, possibly gone-tomorrow North American clubs is the way forward. In any case, I suspect Parky is right that the American Dream is dead. It died with the Super League coup and the defenestration of Nigel Wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnleywelsh Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, fighting irish said: He might yet MOK, he might yet. My view is that he is playing Devils Advocate. While the ''dreamers'' come up with the big ideas, he's sounding an alarm, warning us all not to weaken the existing structure while we attempt to stimulate growth elsewhere. We need to take heed of his warnings and new plans to spread the game should include contingencies to manage the risks and avert the worst of Parksider's predictions. That's the responsible pragmatic paternal approach and I see it as a valuable contribution to the debate. The problem I have with his position, is that he openly confesses his belief that it's impossible to develop the game anywhere else, other than where its already played. As a corollary of that belief, he opines any attempt to spread the game into new areas, is a waste of time and money and worse, very likely to jeopardise the (extremely fragile) status quo. I am diametrically opposed to his point of view. I believe our game is undeniably excellent. I believe that because its excellent, it is (and will be) very appealing to new people the world over if its presented in a confident and professional way (as evinced by the spontaneous appearance of new fledgling nations in recent years). So while I value his input, I'm afraid he wouldn't get my vote, to steer the ship. He seems resigned to the inevitable decline of our sport and offers nothing (no ideas) to slow the rate of decline, let alone stop the rot completely and stimulate growth. It would break my heart to see our game continue to deteriorate in the public eye, or in terms of participation numbers, or standards of play on the field, so its not enough, to do nothing, to stand by and just accept a hopeless, withering view of the future. In my opinion, we have to grow or die. We have to speculate, to some extent. We need leaders who are real believers in the value of our sport, who are genuinely proud to represent us and confident in the games ability to garner new people in increasing numbers, as our existing followers age and die away and who will make serious detailed plans to ensure the games survival and long term prosperity. Here's the rub, I don't think we can rely on the RFL to do it all for us. We as individuals, can't afford to stand aside and wait for our saviour to appear. If we love the game, we should get involved, do more. Start kids teams, support amateur clubs, create new student and school teams, become a referee, coach, organiser or fund raiser. Build the game in some small way, wherever you live. That's what's happening in Belgrade, in Nigeria, in Jamaica, in Brazil, in Norway etc etc. If they can do it, starting with nothing, why can't we in Cumbria, Yorkshire or Lancashire, or anywhere else for that matter? We should turn our attention to these efforts and really celebrate and publicise, new clubs in new areas wherever they appear. (We are often contemptuous of them). It doesn't matter whether they can compete with heartland clubs. We should encourage them to stick at it and welcome them into the fold, offer our advice, and cooperation to nurture their development. All most of them want (when they start) is a little advice, and someone to play against. Let Super League and RFL try to manage the top end while we, the lovers of the game, mobilise and develop the grass roots wherever we can. Bob Brown of Hemel Hempstead will tell you, Parksider is wrong, it can be done if you want it enough. Brilliant post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted July 12, 2019 Author Share Posted July 12, 2019 I have (somewhat belatedly I admit) come to realize it is impossible to discuss anything with Parksider. He does not wish to debate, or give reasons for his opinions that he states as facts. "I am right, you are wrong." If you say A, he says not-A. Not B, or C, or D, different ideas for the future. Just not-A - your way will not work, best continue on as we always have, because it's so successful. And now others are starting to accept his doom-and-gloom scenario. I don't know, maybe the SL owners all think like he does. Sad, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Parksider Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 3 hours ago, fighting irish said: The problem I have with his (Parksiders) position, is that he openly confesses his belief that it's impossible to develop the game anywhere else, other than where its already played. He opines any attempt to spread the game into new areas, is a waste of time and money. In my opinion, we have to grow or die. We have to speculate, to some extent. If we love the game, we should get involved, do more. How rude can someone be? I have been on this fine website many years and you only a matter of months with a few fleeting visits, yet you seem to know all about me and what I think? I have never said it's impossible to develop the game anywhere else? I looked at the RLIF International standings not long ago and was cheered by the 49 RL countries listed, a lot more than when I started to follow the game over 50 years ago, so I obviously know the game can be developed anywhere. You have been very rude to me before for which you apologised and here you are at it again?. Never have I said attempts to "grow the game" elsewhere are a waste of time and money, if we are talking North America I was the one who suggested the "idea" you say I am bereft of to give such as Toronto, Boston and other like clubs all the time they needed to actually "grow their game" in the Championship. TWP started with NA players in their team like Ngwati, Burroughs and Eichner, and could have gone on to encourage and develop more players like this to join their club and other NA clubs, and strengthen the USA and the Canadian International sides. However not one TWP fan on here was interested, Nor was Argyle. He sacked them all off because all he wanted was a Superlague team to play with ASAP. When Canada RL visited Lamport offering memberships Argyle walked straight past them. He could have joined them, he could have funded growth in the grassroots game there. He chose not to. Equally Perez was all talk about developing players from grid iron, but that got abandoned very quickly once TWP were in the league structure? Do you not think that somewhere amongst the thousands of college athletes there would certainly have been some very talented lads eager to have a go at playing Rugby league along with getting a modest wage from Mr. Argylle to do so. But neither of these guys wanted to Speculate and do the hard yards and "grow" the North American game. Your "grow or die" is an empty slogan that will give you some "Like this" approvals. However the growth from nothing to pro teams for our Superleague clubs happened from 1864 to the advent of the pro Northern Rugby League in the first decade of the last century which has stayed both still and successful for over 100 years with a current £200M TV contract. Not long ago I set out the nigh on 50 attempts to add to our famous pro clubs all of which sadly failed to "grow" from south shields to south wales whom I championed on here but was derided for it All these were admirable attempts at growth nonetheless. History has shown it hasn't been a case of grow or die at all. You are wrong, your slogan is wrong. You are also wrong to tell any of us who get involved in the game whether it's playing, reffing, researching and preserving the history, sponsoring, or just plain going along to matches whether it's The Grand final of Leeds and Saints or my local Trinity.v. Northumbria in the student league in which I played a bit in way back........to "do more" ........This is not an "idea" at all, and it is again quite rude. I deeply appreciate anyone who does what they can for Rugby League and I say this to them, and in particular I have friends doing wonders with Masters, But I do not instruct them to "do more" the choice is entirely theirs...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, SL17 said: You do come up shy your good self when taken out of your comfort zone. You do have quoted posts you have ignored. As do we all. And I admit my knowledge of the history of the game is not the greatest so I shy away from such debates. But some of us are worse offenders than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 9 hours ago, Man of Kent said: I did. Possibly the most salient point in relation to this thread is Toronto getting “laughed out of the room” if they want a TV deal without more NA clubs. As Super League has spoken about a quota of three foreign clubs - and Toulouse is favoured to join Catalans - where does that leave TWP’s plans? More than likely it leaves them needing a share of the Sky TV deal, or another plan which can be implemented without involving SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 12 hours ago, TBone said: Not sure how many of you have listened to the 5 Live podcast entitled "The NRL's most wanted". The guests are Shane Richardson (former CEO of a number of RL clubs inc Gateshead and South Sydney Rabbitohs) and Mark Evans (former CEO of Melbourne Storm and Harlequins Rugby). They discuss amongst other things the topic of SL expansion. I found it interesting, particularly the bit about setting up a new franchise, what happened at Gateshead and London, and Mark Evans thoughts on his involvement with Boston and the wider possibilities in NA. Good points there from both Shane Richardson and Mark Evans, which reinforce the view that the Toronto/New York/Ottawa venture isn't viable within the British structure, it can only become viable outside that structure. That then would require a whole new and separate structure which would be a transatlantic structure in order to have something new, different and "sexy" to sell to broadcasters. That is clearly the only way to make it fly. Very interesting how Evans goes to state that Bayern, FC Barcelona and others play in the "real league" which he identifies as the Champions League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 48 minutes ago, SL17 said: Does that not mean you shouldn’t become opinionated? You are having a pop at someone because they won’t reply to you. Yet you do the same thing., A lack of knowledge isn’t a reason to put someone down. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jampot Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Well, there's been a lot of debate on here as to whether "The American dream" is dead or not, with some even going as ridiculously and laughably far as to suggest that TWP might have deliberately lost against the Broncos to avoid being rejected by SL! TWP are the strong favourites for the promotion spot, they're miles ahead, and so later this year we will get to see whether they are admitted to SL or not. If they are not, that will seem a major block to RL in North America and it may signal the end of any potential development there and "The American dream", if you like. If they are admitted, I don't see how anyone can claim that "The American dream" is dead. So why don't we all chill and wait and see what happens later this year if they earn the promotion spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manxmanc Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Jampot said: Well, there's been a lot of debate on here as to whether "The American dream" is dead or not, with some even going as ridiculously and laughably far as to suggest that TWP might have deliberately lost against the Broncos to avoid being rejected by SL! TWP are the strong favourites for the promotion spot, they're miles ahead, and so later this year we will get to see whether they are admitted to SL or not. If they are not, that will seem a major block to RL in North America and it may signal the end of any potential development there and "The American dream", if you like. If they are admitted, I don't see how anyone can claim that "The American dream" is dead. So why don't we all chill and wait and see what happens later this year if they earn the promotion spot? That seems fair enough... and to get back to the thread, the TWP v Featherstone game is on later - hopefully, a competitive affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 11 hours ago, Man of Kent said: I don’t agree with Parky’s fatalism on expansion either. I do tend to agree with his central argument that expansion without player development isn’t expansion, however. And while I’m not anti-Toronto, I have severe doubts that gambling with nigh-on 125 years of British rugby league tradition to accommodate here-today, possibly gone-tomorrow North American clubs is the way forward. In any case, I suspect Parky is right that the American Dream is dead. It died with the Super League coup and the defenestration of Nigel Wood. Is Melbourne expansion then? For over a decade hardly a single local player made the grade there. Now they have over 24,000 members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Scubby said: Is Melbourne expansion then? For over a decade hardly a single local player made the grade there. Now they have over 24,000 members. The Melbourne Rugby League (or the MRL) is a rugby league football competition located in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. As of the 2018 season, there are currently 17 competing teams across the varying age groups who are affiliated with the Melbourne Storm junior system. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Rugby_League In 1998, the Storm established an affiliation with Queensland Cup side the Norths Devilsand used the club as a feeder for their first grade team. The relationship would prove to be a fruitful one as 13 of the 17 players to compete for the Storm in the 2006 NRL Grand Final had played for the Devils in previous years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Storm#Feeder_clubs https://www.melbournestorm.com.au/news/2018/08/15/storm-and-tigers-further-extend-feeder-partnership/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: The Melbourne Rugby League (or the MRL) is a rugby league football competition located in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. As of the 2018 season, there are currently 17 competing teams across the varying age groups who are affiliated with the Melbourne Storm junior system. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Rugby_League In 1998, the Storm established an affiliation with Queensland Cup side the Norths Devilsand used the club as a feeder for their first grade team. The relationship would prove to be a fruitful one as 13 of the 17 players to compete for the Storm in the 2006 NRL Grand Final had played for the Devils in previous years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Storm#Feeder_clubs https://www.melbournestorm.com.au/news/2018/08/15/storm-and-tigers-further-extend-feeder-partnership/ North Red Devils is in Brisbane. You knew that of course? So basically what Toronto have done with Skolars And this is in a country where Rugby League is one of the biggest sports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegendOfTexEvans Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 12 hours ago, Man of Kent said: I don’t agree with Parky’s fatalism on expansion either. I do tend to agree with his central argument that expansion without player development isn’t expansion, however. And while I’m not anti-Toronto, I have severe doubts that gambling with nigh-on 125 years of British rugby league tradition to accommodate here-today, possibly gone-tomorrow North American clubs is the way forward. In any case, I suspect Parky is right that the American Dream is dead. It died with the Super League coup and the defenestration of Nigel Wood. My concern was the American Dream was a distraction thrown up to avoid talking about the mismanagement of the game and lack of real expansion and vision for the game. People making decisions appeared to be directly benefiting from certain decisions happening, in terms of hospitality and be too involved at a personal level. Rugby League is a small world and its not difficult in the age of social media and a few connections to get facts and stories checked out. Especially if you have had any hands on involvement with the game. Its easy to learn as much about the events going on in Canada and the USA as it is Lancashire and Yorkshire. You soon learn to raise the odd eye brow to the message carried by certain Rugby League journalists. The sport flips dangerously between fantasists and isolationists, with no space in between for the pragmatic. Matthew 7:24-27 The Wise and Foolish Builders “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBone Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Scubby said: Is Melbourne expansion then? For over a decade hardly a single local player made the grade there. Now they have over 24,000 members. Well, according to Mark Evans (former CEO - on the 5Live podcast), the cost of creating and sustaining Melbourne Storm has been circa AU$100m! Thats one hell of an investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, TBone said: Well, according to Mark Evans (former CEO - on the 5Live podcast), the cost of creating and sustaining Melbourne Storm has been circa AU$100m! Thats one hell of an investment. Yes, and they now have more members than every NRL club except Brisbane, Souths and The Eels. That is one hell of an achievement where AFL is absolute king. What does that say about the other 12 NRL clubs where people supposedly live and breath RL? This stuff takes time, effort, money and perseverance - something RL has never had. Many want to judge Toronto or Toulouse or whoever on 3 years not 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 I think people are making too much of this issue...a few games have been bumped by Catalans is all (nothing more...nothing less), If TWP continue their winning ways and get through Championship there will be movement on this file; if not then there probably won't be. Need to get to SL ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegendOfTexEvans Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 22 minutes ago, Kayakman said: I think people are making too much of this issue...a few games have been bumped by Catalans is all (nothing more...nothing less), If TWP continue their winning ways and get through Championship there will be movement on this file; if not then there probably won't be. Need to get to SL ASAP. Expanding the league to 13 with a Toronto in Super League benefits both Championship and Super League. Super League games is getting a bit Scooby-Doo, cutting out a loop fixture is only a good thing. Championship is silly having a full time team in with part-timers, de-values the whole competition. Toronto, should be a given a chance to deliver the goods in an expanded Super League. It answers questions for both cheer leaders and doubters of the Toronto club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said: Expanding the league to 13 with a Toronto in Super League benefits both Championship and Super League. Super League games is getting a bit Scooby-Doo, cutting out a loop fixture is only a good thing. Championship is silly having a full time team in with part-timers, de-values the whole competition. Toronto, should be a given a chance to deliver the goods in an expanded Super League. It answers questions for both cheer leaders and doubters of the Toronto club. Finally got you coming around to my way of thinking...it took a while but the common sense finally got in there and took hold...you are now coming along nicely....stay on the true straight and narrow...the closest distance between tow (sic) points is a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 59 minutes ago, Scubby said: So basically what Toronto have done with Skolars Er, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegendOfTexEvans Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Kayakman said: Finally got you coming around to my way of thinking...it took a while but the common sense finally got in there and took hold...you are now coming along nicely....stay on the true straight and narrow...the closest distance between tow (sic) points is a straight line. Not changed any of my thinking, still don't believe the club is sustainable, I would'nt buy a used car from the people running the club. Just think its what needs to happen. Pointless just keeping Toronto in Championship. We a need a moment of truth. It would make next season more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Just now, Man of Kent said: Er, no. What is the difference between Melbourne twinning with North Devils in Brisbane (1000+ miles away) and what Toronto might do with Skolars over the next couple of years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLegendOfTexEvans Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Man of Kent said: Er, no. The cheque is in the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said: Not changed any of my thinking, still don't believe the club is sustainable, I would'nt buy a used car from the people running the club. Just think its what needs to happen. Pointless just keeping Toronto in Championship. We a need a moment of truth. It would make next season more interesting. See, just when things started going well for ya you gotta go and ruin everything! Some never learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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