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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

Wigan's problem was getting into bed with Dave Whelan and believing the stadium being shared between and benefiting both teams nonsense. Also allowing the proceeds from Central Park to disappear but it had little choice in that after being taken over by Dave Whelan. The trouble is Wigan Athletic are worthless without the stadium and Dave Whelan knows this. I would love Wigan to build their own stadium but Lenegan has no appetite for doing so and constantly spouts what a good deal Wigan have, which I do not believe.

You mean Dave Whelan the ex footballer, who made his money selling football based sports goods and was Chirman/owner of Wigan Athletic, well, whoever would have expected that outcome?

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5 minutes ago, Clogiron said:

You mean Dave Whelan the ex footballer, who made his money selling football based sports goods and was Chirman/owner of Wigan Athletic, well, whoever would have expected that outcome?

Indeed.

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As long as the national media ignore RL, which I can’t imagine will ever change (unless possibly Toronto and NY make super league and are successful in it with 5 figure crowds) the game will always struggle financially, and if kids aren’t playing regularly it will lose fans over time - simple really. 

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34 minutes ago, Clogiron said:

You mean Dave Whelan the ex footballer, who made his money selling football based sports goods and was Chirman/owner of Wigan Athletic, well, whoever would have expected that outcome?

Ironically he’s actually much more of a rugby fan than he is football. He would fly back from Barbados for big Wigan games but wouldn’t do similar for any number of Latics games.

However, he’s a businessman before anything else and saw a good opportunity when Wigan were riddled with debt in Central Park’s final years and were on the brink of moving to Bolton.

That said, for the facility that they have along with the security of their tenancy, they don’t have a bad deal at all in the scheme of things.

Although it didn’t seem it at the time, they may well have landed lucky on the transfer of stadium ownership a few years ago as there will have to be some serious money spent on renewing a lot of the stadium facilities in the coming years.  

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2 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Ironically he’s actually much more of a rugby fan than he is football. He would fly back from Barbados for big Wigan games but wouldn’t do similar for any number of Latics games.

However, he’s a businessman before anything else and saw a good opportunity when Wigan were riddled with debt in Central Park’s final years and were on the brink of moving to Bolton.

That said, for the facility that they have along with the security of their tenancy, they don’t have a bad deal at all in the scheme of things.

Although it didn’t seem it at the time, they may well have landed lucky on the transfer of stadium ownership a few years ago as there will have to be some serious money spent on renewing a lot of the stadium facilities in the coming years.  

But it can't have been very easy to compete with the money that the fooball club have had coming in over the pas few years from the premiership and a FA cup win,, you would think a fair proportion of that many millions would be still available to them or am I wrong, football is of only a passing intrest to me now, the money in it is ridiculously extreme to take it seriously for me?

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10 hours ago, owls said:

With Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton all struggling

 

Are Swinton struggling? On and off the pitch we are in better health than we have been for years. Can't remember ever feeling so optimistic about the future of the club.

We're heading in the right direction and the turnaround from two years ago when the club was at death's door has been superb. It's a long process putting things right from decades of mismanagement but I firmly believe the Lions are on the up. I'm not deluded thinking everything is rosy but there are plenty of things to look forward to under the current chairman and board.

Grounds are a big thing but there are as many clubs who haven't lost their home who have had trouble financially as those that left. For every Oldham and Swinton there is a Keighley and Workington.

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Glad to hear Swinton doing well, as I lived there from 1946 to 1968. 

Re ownership by any club of one's own ground.

How much does a ground cost to build or buy? i

Imagine its a modest £5 million for a small ground, plus annual running costs. All for 15 games a year? Where would a club get the money? Gift? Loan? Mortgage sucured on the ground? 

All absorbs money that could be spent on a coach, players etc. Club gets in financial difficulties. What next? Has to sell the ground. Why not start from scratch renting a ground and spending money on making the club more successful.?

Of course, all clubs are different and there is no magic bullet, but the dream of  club owning its own ground can easily turn into a nightmare. 

Same with mergers and takeovers. Those in the recent past may not have appeared to work, but no one can accurately forecast what would have happened had they not taken place. 

Again, its not all about current fans, either. It's about new fans. It's about lapsed fans, too. It's about replacing old fans unable or unwilling to go to games, with young fans willing and able to go. 

 

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5 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

No these clubs have had their chance at the top table and failed, throwing good money after bad isn’t going to solve anything. I hope they can continue to operate as a Championship or Championship One club, but they shouldn’t get special treatment.

 

Special treatment - like the RL buying the lease for Odsal so that Bradford Bulls could still play there ?

Also , as well as for financial reasons  , Oldham were 'encouraged' to move to Boundary Park because of "Framing The Future" - a document that didn't seem to apply to clubs on the other side of The Pennines.

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When have mergers ever worked though? The only successful UK example I can think of off the top of my head is Inverness Caley Thistle. Fans hate them and the new club is not their own; otherwise why wouldn’t Hearts and Hibs, Bristol’s City and Rovers, Hull FC and Hull KR etc etc have merged to form stronger clubs. Even worse those examples are in the same town, merging teams from different towns would be doomed to failure from the off. 

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33 minutes ago, Eddie said:

When have mergers ever worked though? The only successful UK example I can think of off the top of my head is Inverness Caley Thistle. Fans hate them and the new club is not their own; otherwise why wouldn’t Hearts and Hibs, Bristol’s City and Rovers, Hull FC and Hull KR etc etc have merged to form stronger clubs. Even worse those examples are in the same town, merging teams from different towns would be doomed to failure from the off. 

They worked out well for both Hull and Huddersfield.

- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

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There has to be an attractive home for the heartlands clubs with a fan base and expansion clubs cashed up and geographically suitable. Oh wait for it two SL tens with P&R and a 3 year licence and a view to expand the 20.

The safe haven is created for the Bradfords, Widnes, Leigh, TW, TO etc to grow from whilst fans see better RL and savour the dream of promotion, something philanthropists buy into.

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18 hours ago, Damien said:

Wigan's problem was getting into bed with Dave Whelan and believing the stadium being shared between and benefiting both teams nonsense. Also allowing the proceeds from Central Park to disappear but it had little choice in that after being taken over by Dave Whelan. The trouble is Wigan Athletic are worthless without the stadium and Dave Whelan knows this. I would love Wigan to build their own stadium but Lenegan has no appetite for doing so and constantly spouts what a good deal Wigan have, which I do not believe.

In my days as a plastic Wiganer, I was always told by Pieater workmates, that the entire Athletic push for the Premiership was financed by Wigan RL.  I don't know whether this is true or not. What I do know is that many soccer people in Wigan follow, Everton, Liverpool, Bolton, City, United or Blackburn.  Not many seemed to be Athletic supporters.  I suppose the reason is Athletic's relatively late entrance into the Football League.  Without the Warriors at the DW I don't think the ground would be viable economically.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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17 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Ironically he’s actually much more of a rugby fan than he is football. He would fly back from Barbados for big Wigan games but wouldn’t do similar for any number of Latics games.

However, he’s a businessman before anything else and saw a good opportunity when Wigan were riddled with debt in Central Park’s final years and were on the brink of moving to Bolton.

That said, for the facility that they have along with the security of their tenancy, they don’t have a bad deal at all in the scheme of things.

Although it didn’t seem it at the time, they may well have landed lucky on the transfer of stadium ownership a few years ago as there will have to be some serious money spent on renewing a lot of the stadium facilities in the coming years.  

I always understood it was Whelan's money that financed Ellery going to Central Park

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Before the JJB was built we had Central Park(much loved but crumbling).and Springfield Park (Widely known as Pneumonia Park not much there to crumble) The town needed someone with ambition and Whelan was that man.Who else was going to build a new ,desperately needed stadium?The warriors had aground but no money,the council supplied the site .Dave Whelan put the deal together,and if he hadn’t I dom’t Know where we would be today.

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On 01/07/2019 at 16:46, Damien said:

Once you sell your ground and have no replacement you lose your soul and it becomes a slow decline. Swinton and Oldham have shown this and I really hope Rochdale aren't going down the same round now they have no say in Spotland after the RFL sold their stake.

I would like the RFL to back the purchase of land for each of these clubs in their own towns to develop grounds and build again. Even just a modest stadium with a clubhouse and small stand is enough for the attendances that these clubs are getting and it can be developed as the clubs grow. With grants etc available, and even the World Cup funding money, I don't see why it shouldn't be feasible.

To whom did the RFL sell their share too?

also when did they buy a share - I thought rochdale RLFC part owned the ground ?

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1 hour ago, Pie tries said:

To whom did the RFL sell their share too?

also when did they buy a share - I thought rochdale RLFC part owned the ground ?

The Football club. Presumably the RFL bailed out Rochdale Hornets at some point, hence holding the share.

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On 01/07/2019 at 19:04, Clogiron said:

You mean Dave Whelan the ex footballer, who made his money selling football based sports goods and was Chirman/owner of Wigan Athletic, well, whoever would have expected that outcome?

Dave Whelan was a shareholder in Wigan Rugby for many years before he had anything to do with Wigan Athletic. He made his initial fortune operating a supermarket in Wigan town centre, he sold that to Morrisons for a large wedge and bought a small time sports shop called JJB Sports just at the right time. The time was just as it became popular to wear replica tops as opposed to having a scarf and a bob hat, a lot of what he sold in the early days were Wigan shirts and Aussie replicas.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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5 hours ago, Jao 711 said:

Before the JJB was built we had Central Park(much loved but crumbling).and Springfield Park (Widely known as Pneumonia Park not much there to crumble) The town needed someone with ambition and Whelan was that man.Who else was going to build a new ,desperately needed stadium?The warriors had aground but no money,the council supplied the site .Dave Whelan put the deal together,and if he hadn’t I dom’t Know where we would be today.

Whelan's initial plan was to rebuild Central Park, for that Jack Robinson had to sell Central Park to Whelan. Robinson famously or infamously  said that no third rate soccer club was going to play on Central Park. Jack Robinson's arrogance in thinking he could outmanoeuvre Whelan, who by then was worth a few hundred million £, was breathtaking.

It is interesting that the documents for the planning application for the building of the "JJB" stadium include a traffic impact assessment for Friday nights and it is described as a multi-purpose sports stadium. The ground had to be multi-purpose to get access to the various grants available.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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