Dunbar Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 5 hours ago, deluded pom? said: I hope not. Are you an FC fan DP? If so, would you not want him because you don't think he is good enough or because of these incidents? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluded pom? Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: Are you an FC fan DP? If so, would you not want him because you don't think he is good enough or because of these incidents? A bit of both. Not good enough IMO. Too many mistakes in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 18 minutes ago, deluded pom? said: A bit of both. Not good enough IMO. Too many mistakes in him. I think he probably does have more errors in him than you would like but it's worth putting this into context. A couple of seasons ago his error rate was very high and he still suffers from that reputation now but this season he has made 7 errors in 11 appearances which is not a horrible return. These two incidents of gouging are a huge blot on his career but as a prop he would be one of the very best in Super League, I would have him in every squad in a heartbeat and the only team I don't think he would be a guaranteed automatic starter would be Saints with Walmsley and Thompson available. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 12 hours ago, dkw said: My opinion is its quite difficult to prove, but conversely its also pretty difficult to disprove so will the burden of proof be on Burgess then? Unfortunately the burden of proof, well in this country, is that it is on the prosecution. That comes from the RFL disciplinary being based on English law. Don't know what the Aussies base it on. Private prosecutions, in English law, are based on the balance of probabilities, which is looser than the criminal definition in English law. I presume we work on the balance of probability. The Aussies do what the Aussies do!!! Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, Padge said: Unfortunately the burden of proof, well in this country, is that it is on the prosecution. That comes from the RFL disciplinary being based on English law. Don't know what the Aussies base it on. Private prosecutions, in English law, are based on the balance of probabilities, which is looser than the criminal definition in English law. I presume we work on the balance of probability. The Aussies do what the Aussies do!!! I really don't know in cases like this how intent can be proven or disproven. Proving he meant to do it is almost impossible unless he started the game by saying he was going to gouge Farrah when he gets the chance. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I really don't know in cases like this how intent can be proven or disproven. Proving he meant to do it is almost impossible unless he started the game by saying he was going to gouge Farrah when he gets the chance. It is down to at some point someone having here him say what he was going to do or after the event him saying what he did and he deserved it. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevoh Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 I just watched this gouge on YouTube which also included film of the same player gouging during a test match just last year. With the video evidence available that I watched, had he been playing the other code then he would be banned for at least a year, probably two years. An ex-England captain was banned for 26 weeks for gouging based just on a player's testimony without any video evidence or even witnessed by a match official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 34 minutes ago, Stevoh said: I just watched this gouge on YouTube which also included film of the same player gouging during a test match just last year. With the video evidence available that I watched, had he been playing the other code then he would be banned for at least a year, probably two years. An ex-England captain was banned for 26 weeks for gouging based just on a player's testimony without any video evidence or even witnessed by a match official. Interestingly the other code does appear to have softened on this a bit in recent times. They did used to be far stricter on misconduct, they seem to be going closer to our level of punishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevoh Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Dave T said: Interestingly the other code does appear to have softened on this a bit in recent times. They did used to be far stricter on misconduct, they seem to be going closer to our level of punishments. Only in NZ - anything near the eyes starts at draconian and then moves up from there. RU knows that an NFL style lawsuit is only a matter of when, not if so all contact with the head is now a card by default, just the colour that is mitigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 45 minutes ago, Stevoh said: Only in NZ - anything near the eyes starts at draconian and then moves up from there. RU knows that an NFL style lawsuit is only a matter of when, not if so all contact with the head is now a card by default, just the colour that is mitigated. Without taking this too far cross-code, a brief search comes up with a ban of 7 weeks for a player in 2017, a 10 and an 8 week ban in 2016. There was an article in 2010 about them handing out life bans for it. Those punishments are in line with what the NRL gave Burgess, although it should be noted this was his 2nd offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevoh Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dave T said: Without taking this too far cross-code, a brief search comes up with a ban of 7 weeks for a player in 2017, a 10 and an 8 week ban in 2016. There was an article in 2010 about them handing out life bans for it. Those punishments are in line with what the NRL gave Burgess, although it should be noted this was his 2nd offence. I haven't checked to see what evidence existed for those bans - I am more equating what would happen if there was evidence as clear as the Burgess video(s) show. Most bans for gouging are literally derived from one man's word against another. Chris Ashton (black no.14) was banned for 10 weeks for gouging white no.13 based just on the video evidence below... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 On 02/07/2019 at 19:10, The Future is League said: If he leaves the NRL i would suggest the Catalans. I would think Toronto are more likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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