Lam to stay, Sarginson to leave.

[Bring back the Boyd]

4 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Whilst this ought to keep Wigan organised  next season, if Hasting then gets homesick then that leaves them looking for yet another 6... which would not be easy.

Sargison started average this season and it looked he would not get a new contract, but he has been looking sharp recently. Cap issues as ever. Younger cheaper players coming through. Clubs ought to be interested in him. 

I think Williams is a great player and Wigan will miss him. What a shame the British game has such low esteem and  pulling power and we lose quality players.

I had the very same thoughts. Gaining an excellent 7 at the expense of an even better 6—— if Wigan can find or already have a decent scrum half they will be a very difficult team to live with next season . Just hope Wire find a 7 before them

[RP London]

9 hours ago, Damien said:

 Lenegan clearly stated that its okay to let players go because they will come back. It is his policy and to justify this he has given a safety net to numerous players and re-signed various ones. Every one has come back an inferior player to what they was before and almost every one has left again the club again after not doing much. Again you may disagree but no club has re-signed as many players as Wigan over the last decade.

getting away from the name calling... What Lenegan is doing is understandable and is good business (to be fair Real Madrid do it all the time, granted with much younger players that are not making the grade there and then)... its not giving the players a safety net its giving Lenegan and Wigan one. They are getting first refusal on the player not the other way round, if Wigan dont think they are good enough anymore they dont have to sign them, but if they are coming back for personal reasons etc then Wigan dont necessarily want to see a great player going to another club in the same division, they would never have sold them to another Super League club they only did it because it is the NRL. 

The "safety blanket" is a wise move, it is exactly what any team should be doing with players going to the NRL... But you dont HAVE to sign them back you can pass on the option.. its that decision to re-sign them that is at fault not the "safety blanket". 

his view "it is ok to let them go as they will come back" is also taken a touch out of context IMHO. Do we really think he has any power to stop them going to the NRL at the moment? if he stops them then they go at the end of their contract and he has no ability to put a clause into anything. Therefore he doenst make an enemy of a good player, he negotiates a fee and he negotiates a "safety blanket" so he gets them back if he wants. Frankly if the owner of my club was not doing this and was just digging his heels in saying "you have a contract, tough" and they just walk at the end, no fee, no come back clause etc I would be livid.

Give credit where it is due and blame in equal proportion. Lenegan is doing what is best for the club and the player. The re-recruitment team (scouts, medics etc) need a kicking for some of the choices of exercising the option 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, RP London said:

getting away from the name calling... What Lenegan is doing is understandable and is good business (to be fair Real Madrid do it all the time, granted with much younger players that are not making the grade there and then)... its not giving the players a safety net its giving Lenegan and Wigan one. They are getting first refusal on the player not the other way round, if Wigan dont think they are good enough anymore they dont have to sign them, but if they are coming back for personal reasons etc then Wigan dont necessarily want to see a great player going to another club in the same division, they would never have sold them to another Super League club they only did it because it is the NRL. 

The "safety blanket" is a wise move, it is exactly what any team should be doing with players going to the NRL... But you dont HAVE to sign them back you can pass on the option.. its that decision to re-sign them that is at fault not the "safety blanket". 

his view "it is ok to let them go as they will come back" is also taken a touch out of context IMHO. Do we really think he has any power to stop them going to the NRL at the moment? if he stops them then they go at the end of their contract and he has no ability to put a clause into anything. Therefore he doenst make an enemy of a good player, he negotiates a fee and he negotiates a "safety blanket" so he gets them back if he wants. Frankly if the owner of my club was not doing this and was just digging his heels in saying "you have a contract, tough" and they just walk at the end, no fee, no come back clause etc I would be livid.

Give credit where it is due and blame in equal proportion. Lenegan is doing what is best for the club and the player. The re-recruitment team (scouts, medics etc) need a kicking for some of the choices of exercising the option 

Sorry there are so many reasons why that is incorrect but we are getting way off topic. I have no issue with Lenegan letting players go but I have serious issues with the culture and what is driving players to leave. No other team has a revolving door of players leaving and there are very good reasons why that is the case at Wigan. In terms of players coming back Lenegan has a major say on recruitment and certainly can't be excused like you are trying to do. Players coming back are a self fulfilling prophecy for him. What he said certainly wasn't taken out of context either.

[RP London]

34 minutes ago, Damien said:

1. Sorry there are so many reasons why that is incorrect but we are getting way off topic. 2. I have no issue with Lenegan letting players go but I have serious issues with the culture and what is driving players to leave. 3. No other team has a revolving door of players leaving and there are very good reasons why that is the case at Wigan. 4. In terms of players coming back Lenegan has a major say on recruitment and certainly can't be excused like you are trying to do. 5. Players coming back are a self fulfilling prophecy for him. 6. What he said certainly wasn't taken out of context either.

1. I'd like to hear them please. Its not off topic at all its about Wigans recruitment and retention.. 

2. you certainly seem to have an issue with him letting players go.. reading your posts its one of your major gripes... Culture etc yes has an issue and Lenegan needs to sort that out, but perhaps these players are part of the culture that needs changing? If your issue is with the culture then say that, this is the first that has popped up here as far as i can see, the rest has been about "he shouldnt be letting them go with the justification that 'they will come back'".. i agree there seems to be a cultural issue at Wigan 

3. really? what about the likes of Salford who are "fire saling" according to some. If you are a top team in the UK at the moment then the NRL are going to come sniffing for talent which is where a lot of yours are going, and a fair few people dont think Sarginson is up to the task so would you rather he stayed just so the "revolving door" image isnt there?

4. I am not trying to excuse him, I am trying to break the issue down into smaller parts, some of what he is doing including the "safety net" is intelligent and good business, as is selling at the right time to get a fee or this clause rather than having a disinterested player waiting for the end of his contract so he can leave. As I clearly stated at the end of the post blame who ever is part of the re-recruitment for this, if that is lenegan then fine if it is not then leave him out of it. How does he decide, is it down to him or is he given information from people on how well he is doing, whether he is actually fit etc.. Lenegan will delegate most of that and much of the recruitment decisions will be Radlinski (who i would hold responsible for some very very poor decision making in the last few years). But if Lenegan pulls the strings that much then fine lay the re-signing issues at his door, but building the option into these moves is not uncommon and it is a good idea, actually actioning on them when the time comes, maybe not so much. (first refusal does not mean you HAVE to take them, the clue is in the title "first refusal")

5. if you really think that is how he is running the club, "i've said something so i better make sure i make it come true" then I worry for you and Wigan. He puts in something wise, a first refusal on players going to the NRL, with the idea that they will come back.. funny that as most players have limited time in Aus for one reason or another (family, visa, not getting enough game time) so he puts an option in the contract. Is he really just taking them back because he can and because of what he said... i would say that is rubbish. Sarginson was timing, Tomkins was a gamble but one worth taking, Burgess seems to have done ok.. so which ones has he got spectacularly wrong?

6. agree to disagree, I believe you are using it out of context and being disingenuous. 

[DavidM]

Lam getting the job was  a no brainer . Sarginson getting the elbow was a double no brainer , how he ever got where he has is beyond me he’s tripe

[Rupert Prince]

10 hours ago, Damien said:

You really need to use a dictionary before posting and using words you don't understand.

Lydon and Gregory never played for Wigan before Widnes so Wigan didn't bring them back. What happened with them is absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. You are talking absolute tripe now and seriously scraping the barrel, as is your silly prejudice opinion. Desperate and pathetic.

Of course I know that Lydon and Gregory didn't play for Wigan before they "came back". They sensibly left their local amateur Wigan clubs and turned down opportunity to join Wigan and signed for better clubs rather than go to Wigan.  They made us look stupid for years, but Wigan directors were pleased to bring them back home. The parallel is clear but you are too one eyed to see it.  

And you ignore the fact that Wigan were grateful to bring back Sarginson because we had I think suddenly lost Gelling and we needed a centre badly.  Rather than criticise him as a player I would be sad that he has had too many injuries.

There is nothing wrong with a player coming back to a club and no evidence of Wigan trying not to keep players or being willing to ship players out on the cheap.

Some were expecting and praying that Wigan would lose 3 games on the trot so Lam would be sacked, which really was desperate and pathetic.

[Rupert Prince]

9 hours ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

I had the very same thoughts. Gaining an excellent 7 at the expense of an even better 6—— if Wigan can find or already have a decent scrum half they will be a very difficult team to live with next season . Just hope Wire find a 7 before them

Won't Widdop play 7?

Sammut will be a useful 7 if needed. It may be that one or other of them prefers one edge or the other. Between them we may be able to blood some academy players. 

But unless he settles really well in, Hastings will be thinking that good form might encourage a suitable NRL club to sign him. I guess he has 12 months to decide whether or not he is better suited to England or Australia.  If he leaves then Wigan will be short of a 6, and by then definitely we will be needing a reliable 7.

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, RP London said:

1. I'd like to hear them please. Its not off topic at all its about Wigans recruitment and retention.. 

2. you certainly seem to have an issue with him letting players go.. reading your posts its one of your major gripes... Culture etc yes has an issue and Lenegan needs to sort that out, but perhaps these players are part of the culture that needs changing? If your issue is with the culture then say that, this is the first that has popped up here as far as i can see, the rest has been about "he shouldnt be letting them go with the justification that 'they will come back'".. i agree there seems to be a cultural issue at Wigan 

3. really? what about the likes of Salford who are "fire saling" according to some. If you are a top team in the UK at the moment then the NRL are going to come sniffing for talent which is where a lot of yours are going, and a fair few people dont think Sarginson is up to the task so would you rather he stayed just so the "revolving door" image isnt there?

4. I am not trying to excuse him, I am trying to break the issue down into smaller parts, some of what he is doing including the "safety net" is intelligent and good business, as is selling at the right time to get a fee or this clause rather than having a disinterested player waiting for the end of his contract so he can leave. As I clearly stated at the end of the post blame who ever is part of the re-recruitment for this, if that is lenegan then fine if it is not then leave him out of it. How does he decide, is it down to him or is he given information from people on how well he is doing, whether he is actually fit etc.. Lenegan will delegate most of that and much of the recruitment decisions will be Radlinski (who i would hold responsible for some very very poor decision making in the last few years). But if Lenegan pulls the strings that much then fine lay the re-signing issues at his door, but building the option into these moves is not uncommon and it is a good idea, actually actioning on them when the time comes, maybe not so much. (first refusal does not mean you HAVE to take them, the clue is in the title "first refusal")

5. if you really think that is how he is running the club, "i've said something so i better make sure i make it come true" then I worry for you and Wigan. He puts in something wise, a first refusal on players going to the NRL, with the idea that they will come back.. funny that as most players have limited time in Aus for one reason or another (family, visa, not getting enough game time) so he puts an option in the contract. Is he really just taking them back because he can and because of what he said... i would say that is rubbish. Sarginson was timing, Tomkins was a gamble but one worth taking, Burgess seems to have done ok.. so which ones has he got spectacularly wrong?

6. agree to disagree, I believe you are using it out of context and being disingenuous. 

I actually did do on and expand slightly which I did not want to do. Your very reply is why and I have little time or inclination to go round in a circular argument quoting points with 8 line replies to a one line sentence. I was going to reply in kind but frankly its not that important to me so instead I'll keep this brief (which now I have got to the end have realised was impossible!).

Again I have no issue with players being allowed to leave and you seem to be taking stuff out of context to spoil for a fight. Ian Lenegan has said and done many things since he took over at Wigan that has created the situation we have now. He has been there 12 years and this has been an issue for many of the latter years. Players like Sarginson were signed by him and players like Burgess and Williams weren't even at the club when he took over. He has created the culture that they have walked into. He has been in charge while contract negotiations have been carried out with said young players and left them getting paid little whilst coming through and playing Super League on low salaries. Riches have been promised down the line in exchange for that initial low pay and players have left because they never came in subsequent negotiations. Create a culture and feeling that every player is dispensable and replaceable and don't be surprised when they then turn round and treat the club the same way. I could go into this far more but am not going to.

What I will give Lenegan credit for and what he has done well is appointing the right people in Maguire initially and then Wane and provided the right resources at academy level. Maguire in particular revolutionised the club and built the structure that laid the foundations for everything after. This allied to the Wigan production line, stemming from its amateur clubs as much as anything else, has papered over many cracks in the everyone is replaceable philosophy. Those cracks have shown this season, you may disagree. I would also agree on Radlinski and that he is part of the issue but for some reason he seems indispensable.

I will never criticise a player for leaving and getting paid better elsewhere or wanting to test themselves in the NRL. I have every issue with trying to justify players leaving, and ignoring all the factors that lead to that situation, by saying its okay because they will come back. Players now see the club purely as a stepping stone to riches elsewhere. Even coaches and back office staff at the club do with numerous ones leaving to go to RU and in particular Sale. I don't really care what Salford do and comparing Wigan to Salford as a club is being disingenuous as they certainly are not a top team. Leeds, Warrington and Saints have kept the core of their teams for years and make quality signings. Only the odd player has left to go to the NRL or RU. Wigan's drastically changes on a regular basis and consists largely of project signings on the cheap. Some of these work like George Carmont and Ben Flower, some don't like Karl Pryce and Gabe Hamlin. Many are distinctly average. Again that has worked to some extent with strong homegrown players like Sean O'Loughlin around and leaders like Leuluai and Green and youth coming through. When they aren't there because they are being sold or their powers are dwindling or indeed because the youth isn't coming through its a different story.

Not one player that Wigan have re-signed as come back as good a player as the one that left. Leuluai was signed at the tail end of his career and was meant to be in a coaching role this year, but is still playing due to poor recruitment. Sarginson has been poor and wasn't even good the first time around to want to sign him back. Joel Tomkins came back a crock and did nothing. Sam Tomkins came back injured, missed good periods of his first two seasons back and left after the third. Lee Mossop was an injury prone the first time around and was a flop the second who Wigan re-signed despite barely playing for Parramatta due to injury. The jury is still out for me on Burgess and personally I don't think he is half the player he was when he first came through and had speed to burn.

I will leave it there and we will have to agree to disagree. However I am certainly not using one line out of context as everything that Lenegan has said and done, both in interaction at fan events and interviews, on recruitment leads me to that conclusion.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

Of course I know that Lydon and Gregory didn't play for Wigan before they "came back". They sensibly left their local amateur Wigan clubs and turned down opportunity to join Wigan and signed for better clubs rather than go to Wigan.  They made us look stupid for years, but Wigan directors were pleased to bring them back home. The parallel is clear but you are too one eyed to see it.  

Wigan had signed the best Scrum half at that age and the England schoolboys scrum half, a player also from Wigan. Gregory could not hold a candle to him, he actually admitted so in his book Pintsize, and as a result he was not wanted by Wigan. Sorry that doesn't fit into your one eyed viewpoint, nice story though. I'm not sure the story with Lydon.

[RP London]

41 minutes ago, Damien said:

I actually did do on and expand slightly which I did not want to do. Your very reply is why and I have little time or inclination to go round in a circular argument quoting points with 8 line replies to a one line sentence. I was going to reply in kind but frankly its not that important to me so instead I'll keep this brief (which now I have got to the end have realised was impossible!).

1. Again I have no issue with players being allowed to leave and you seem to be taking stuff out of context to spoil for a fight.

2. Ian Lenegan has said and done many things since he took over at Wigan that has created the situation we have now. He has been there 12 years and this has been an issue for many of the latter years. Players like Sarginson were signed by him and players like Burgess and Williams weren't even at the club when he took over. He has created the culture that they have walked into. He has been in charge while contract negotiations have been carried out with said young players and left them getting paid little whilst coming through and playing Super League on low salaries. Riches have been promised down the line in exchange for that initial low pay and players have left because they never came in subsequent negotiations. Create a culture and feeling that every player is dispensable and replaceable and don't be surprised when they then turn round and treat the club the same way. I could go into this far more but am not going to.

3. What I will give Lenegan credit for and what he has done well is appointing the right people in Maguire initially and then Wane and provided the right resources at academy level. Maguire in particular revolutionised the club and built the structure that laid the foundations for everything after. This allied to the Wigan production line, stemming from its amateur clubs as much as anything else, has papered over many cracks in the everyone is replaceable philosophy. Those cracks have shown this season, you may disagree. I would also agree on Radlinski and that he is part of the issue but for some reason he seems indispensable.

4. I will never criticise a player for leaving and getting paid better elsewhere or wanting to test themselves in the NRL. I have every issue with trying to justify players leaving, and ignoring all the factors that lead to that situation, by saying its okay because they will come back. Players now see the club purely as a stepping stone to riches elsewhere. Even coaches and back office staff at the club do with numerous ones leaving to go to RU and in particular Sale. I don't really care what Salford do and comparing Wigan to Salford as a club is being disingenuous as they certainly are not a top team. Leeds, Warrington and Saints have kept the core of their teams for years and make quality signings. Only the odd player has left to go to the NRL or RU. Wigan's drastically changes on a regular basis and consists largely of project signings on the cheap. Some of these work like George Carmont and Ben Flower, some don't like Karl Pryce and Gabe Hamlin. Many are distinctly average. Again that has worked to some extent with strong homegrown players like Sean O'Loughlin around and leaders like Leuluai and Green and youth coming through. When they aren't there because they are being sold or their powers are dwindling or indeed because the youth isn't coming through its a different story.

5. Not one player that Wigan have re-signed as come back as good a player as the one that left. Leuluai was signed at the tail end of his career and was meant to be in a coaching role this year, but is still playing due to poor recruitment. Sarginson has been poor and wasn't even good the first time around to want to sign him back. Joel Tomkins came back a crock and did nothing. Sam Tomkins came back injured, missed good periods of his first two seasons back and left after the third. Lee Mossop was an injury prone the first time around and was a flop the second who Wigan re-signed despite barely playing for Parramatta due to injury. The jury is still out for me on Burgess and personally I don't think he is half the player he was when he first came through and had speed to burn.

I will leave it there and we will have to agree to disagree. However I am certainly not using one line out of context as everything that Lenegan has said and done, both in interaction at fan events and interviews, on recruitment leads me to that conclusion.

1. I'm not spoiling for a fight nor taking things out of context. I dont massively disagree with you now that you have explained your position. It did not come across like that at all with the odd line here and there that you had used IMHO.

2. With regards the culture, a pay them less at a lower level let them go somewhere else for experience and come back a better person/player etc is a business tool used by many massive companies very successfully, whether it is a good tool for professional sport I am not sure. I would probably say not. I never took issue with why players were leaving, I never even brought it up, my comments were because you had an issue with the "safety net" which is eminently sensible especially if you are using the tactic above. fundamentally though it is a very risky idea in a short career where their best years could be spent elsewhere and I 100% agree with you on that. 

3. totally agree.. 

4. there are a few things rolled up into one there, i dont disagree with what you are saying but to get a solution you need to pick apart each point. For example with coaches look at Sean Long and Martin Gleeson.. its open season with a cheque book by RU on anyone involved its not a specifically "Wigan issue". The whole point of comparisons is not to compare Wigan as a club to Salford as a club but of the situation of a club with a "revolving door".. it often happens at clubs, another comparison could be Leeds in the last couple of years where they have lost players and brought players in .. its the transition years and often happens with new coaches etc. also happens in football etc, the more settled the backroom and the more sustained success the less of a revolving door you get.. again its an issue many clubs face at points in their cycle it is not a specifically "wigan issue". 

5. i'm not sure I would agree with all your assessments there either before or after their return. Some also are unlucky and could have happened to any player, however, as I said before you didnt HAVE to re-sign them and the fact you did is an issue with the recruitment team and what they are doing. 

I think when you look at what you have won since 2010... 1 World Club Challenge, 4 Super league titles, 2 hub caps & 2 challenge cups, only outside of the top 4 once.. its not a bad record with all this going on.. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Damien said:

Is that a street in Leigh?

Now now Damien, you know that Leigh is in Wigan don't you?

After a lifetimes involvement in the game one accrues contact with a lot of people especially those in the towns around your own, I have brought different topics to this site which have been treated with derision until they are publicly posted, mostly my information sources are reliable, we will just have to wait and see.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Jim Prendle said:

The you need to find a new street because your current one is hugely unreliable.

Maybe Jim, maybe not just passing on what more than one source is saying, no skin of my nose if he is on his uppers or not.

[overtheborder]

Glad there seems to be some stability building again at the club, changing coaches is usually a transitional period for any club, but I think with Wigan the last time they really had to have a transitional period was when Maguire took over. Good for everyone involved I think now and hopefully Lammy can start to build a philosophy and culture at the club.

[latchford albion]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

Wigan had signed the best Scrum half at that age and the England schoolboys scrum half, a player also from Wigan. Gregory could not hold a candle to him, he actually admitted so in his book Pintsize, and as a result he was not wanted by Wigan. Sorry that doesn't fit into your one eyed viewpoint, nice story though. I'm not sure the story with Lydon.

When Gregory signed for Widnes Shaun Edwards was 14 years old and the Wigan scrum half at the time was Les Bolton.

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, latchford albion said:

When Gregory signed for Widnes Shaun Edwards was 14 years old and the Wigan scrum half at the time was Les Bolton.

I completely fail to see your point or the relevance of it.

[latchford albion]

16 minutes ago, Damien said:

I completely fail to see your point or the relevance of it.

 I thought you were arguing that Wigan didn't sign Andy Gregory because they already had Shaun Edwards.  Apologies if I've grabbed the wrong end of the stick, it's been a long day and I've got an Ofsted inspection tomorrow.

[wackojacko]

Bevan French rumoured to have signed too, could be partnering Hastings in the halves although I thought he was more of a fullback, not sure where he'd slot in.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/the-mole-manly-sea-eagles-brad-parker-parramatta-eels-bevan-french/57aceafd-a606-48d8-997d-c677a2359b72

[DavidM]

Wing mainly can play fullback . Very fast , pretty lightweight but was all the rage then vanished off the scene 

[Jim Prendle]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Maybe Jim, maybe not just passing on what more than one source is saying, no skin of my nose if he is on his uppers or not.

Like I said earlier, you need some new sources.

[Harry Stottle]

54 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Like I said earlier, you need some new sources.

Well pray tell if you are aware that my information is pure fabrication and has no substance whatsoever, has I said in my first post on the subject,  his actions and frugal management of the club over the recent past suggest that he is being very cautious with the coffers.

[Padge]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well pray tell if you are aware that my information is pure fabrication and has no substance whatsoever, has I said in my first post on the subject,  his actions and frugal management of the club over the recent past suggest that he is being very cautious with the coffers.

Come on then, post your evidence, source anything that helps to verify what you claim.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Padge said:

Come on then, post your evidence, source anything that helps to verify what you claim.

Now now Padge, being a Corbynista such as yourself you will understandably respect why I would not reveal my sources of information!

[Padge]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Now now Padge, being a Corbynista such as yourself you will understandably respect why I would not reveal my sources of information!

So you don't have any information, I didn't ask where it came from, I asked you for it.

And a Corbynista I am most certainly not.

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, wackojacko said:

Bevan French rumoured to have signed too, could be partnering Hastings in the halves although I thought he was more of a fullback, not sure where he'd slot in.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/the-mole-manly-sea-eagles-brad-parker-parramatta-eels-bevan-french/57aceafd-a606-48d8-997d-c677a2359b72

I’m sure sweaty told us he was signing for Leigh

It would be a strange signing for Wigan as they have plenty of wingers 

[Padge]

1 minute ago, DoubleD said:

I’m sure sweaty told us he was signing for Leigh

It would be a strange signing for Wigan as they have plenty of INJURED wingers 

Hope you don't mind but a touch of accuracy added.