Jump to content
Total Rugby League Fans Forum
Sign in to follow this  
weloveyouwakefield2

Referees ‘coaching ‘

Recommended Posts

Why do referees feel the need to influence what players do?  Shouting five, five, five continually when a team doesn’t kick the ball immediately or shout forty, forty.. when it looks like a player is just going to let the ball into touch for a forty twenty. Also continually telling someone there offside, all these could be said ONCE but not over and over, let the players decide what they are going to do then apply the rules. 

The referees have enough to do without coaching the players!

  • Like 4
  • Confused 3

f3gms4.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, weloveyouwakefield2 said:

Why do referees feel the need to influence what players do?  Shouting five, five, five continually when a team doesn’t kick the ball immediately or shout forty, forty.. when it looks like a player is just going to let the ball into touch for a forty twenty. Also continually telling someone there offside, all these could be said ONCE but not over and over, let the players decide what they are going to do then apply the rules. 

The referees have enough to do without coaching the players!

They do it to try to keep the game flowing. We don't want to see dozens of penalties every game. Much better to try to stop the offence happening in the first place.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, MZH said:

They do it to try to keep the game flowing. We don't want to see dozens of penalties every game. Much better to try to stop the offence happening in the first place.

Spot on.

The ref has a duty to keep the game flowing as well as enforcing, when necessary, the laws of the game.

Edited by Padge
  • Like 1

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, weloveyouwakefield2 said:

Why do referees feel the need to influence what players do?  Shouting five, five, five continually when a team doesn’t kick the ball immediately or shout forty, forty.. when it looks like a player is just going to let the ball into touch for a forty twenty. Also continually telling someone there offside, all these could be said ONCE but not over and over, let the players decide what they are going to do then apply the rules. 

The referees have enough to do without coaching the players!

They aren't coaching they are warning.

  • Like 3

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MZH said:

They do it to try to keep the game flowing. We don't want to see dozens of penalties every game. Much better to try to stop the offence happening in the first place.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried, the fact that players are not left to make the decisions themselves without the ref telling them or the player waiting for the ref to tell them is precisely why there are so many penalties, this is basic human psychology 101. This is replicated in other walks of life.

You put the onus of responsibility to change the behaviour onto the person potentially committing the offence, make them think about their actions and the potential punishment. Remove the commands by the ref to how we used to have it and yes, penalties would increase BUT players and coaches would have to adapt very, very quickly IF the officials are penalising every time they should be or be completely penalised out of a game. It wouldn't take long!

Examples. Ref shouts "mooooove", player/s looks up, waits a few more seconds and then gets off, ref does nothing, player does exactly the same ad-infinitum, pushing even more as to how long they can hold a player down until they get penalised. Previously, ref says nothing, player takes too long, ref penalises, player has to be more cautious as he has no prompt, it's he/they having to make the decision as to when to get off. It's no surprise that the PTB was far less messy and faster.

Also the same to offsides from a kick downfield, players have to make better judgement, ref can then spend more time looking at what's occurring for players onside not looking and instructing players who are blithely running downfield/into the 10 knowing full well they are offside. Penalise a player offside and continue to do it until players get the message. Also penalise players who encroach from an offside position when the receiving player hasn't moved 10m which happens far too often!

You stop the offence happening in the first place more often by putting the onus onto the player to make the decision as to when to move/act in whatever aspect of the game that is.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once again, referees are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Too many penalties spoils the game, too few also spoils the game. Who'd be a ref?

The problem with your example is that defenders are allowed different amounts of time in the tackle. A defender in a "dominant" or "surrender" tackle is given more leeway than, say, the defender who makes a desperation tackle after a line break. Do we really want the players guessing the referees interpretation of the tackle and hence how long they can stay in the ruck?

Warn players if there are about to infringe, penalise them if they do. Keep the game flowing.

As for the shout of "40, 40..." on 40-20 attempts, that could also be for the other officials so they know what the call is.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How is a player supposed to know what a referee is thinking?

A player is held when a referee says he is, a player is offside when a referee says he is, a player has laid on in the tackle when a referee says he has. 

How on earth do you expect a player to play to a referees interpretations if the referee keeps them to himself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

How is a player supposed to know what a referee is thinking?

....

How on earth do you expect a player to play to a referees interpretations if the referee keeps them to himself?

What an astoundingly ridiculous thing to say. Take it to its logical conclusion and see how much sense it makes.

The sport has allowed itself to drift into sacrificing far too much in the search of a faster flowing game. If it needs doing, be brave enough to change the laws, not an individual’s interpretation of them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

What an astoundingly ridiculous thing to say. Take it to its logical conclusion and see how much sense it makes.

The sport has allowed itself to drift into sacrificing far too much in the search of a faster flowing game. If it needs doing, be brave enough to change the laws, not an individual’s interpretation of them.

The ref would have have a stop watch running on every tackle.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cerulean said:

What an astoundingly ridiculous thing to say. Take it to its logical conclusion and see how much sense it makes.

The sport has allowed itself to drift into sacrificing far too much in the search of a faster flowing game. If it needs doing, be brave enough to change the laws, not an individual’s interpretation of them.

The laws.are the individuals interpretation of them.

You play to the referees whistle. It's the one the first things you are ever taught. 

It's like some people have never even been in the same hemisphere as an actual game never mind watched or played it. It is utterly astonishing that anyone with any game experience whatsoever would think less communication between referee and player would make a better game

Edited by scotchy1
  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Just as  a matter of interest ... has anyone complaining about the way a ref does his job actually done it themselves ?

That one always gets an airing ... and it’s pointless . Most folk haven’t been PM , US President , top sportsperson , actor or most other things in the public domain but they still comment on them . Refs like them are fair comment on their displays , like it or don’t . It ain’t never gonna change , for refs and all sports officials . Everybody does it 

Edited by DavidM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I read the title I thought it was about the excellent coaching received by referees from players like sinfield, briers and wilkin.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, ELBOWSEYE said:

When I read the title I thought it was about the excellent coaching received by referees from players like sinfield, briers and wilkin.

There’s a separate thread on Cameron Smith ... he’s the daddy he can coach two at the same time 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DavidM said:

That one always gets an airing ... and it’s pointless . Most folk haven’t been PM , US President , top sportsperson , actor or most other things in the public domain but they still comment on them . Refs like them are fair comment on their displays , like it or don’t . It ain’t never gonna change , for refs and all sports officials . Everybody does it 

Yes, comment on them by all means ... I was just wondering if anyone has done the job.

Did I actually criticise anyone who has posted on the subject ?  No !

So just like a ref's interpretation of a law, you have made your own interpretation of my post. ... in which I never said that such comments should not be made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/07/2019 at 20:43, Padge said:

Spot on.

The ref has a duty to keep the game flowing as well as enforcing, when necessary, the laws of the game.

A windmill for Hull KR this evening for three penalties on the bounce. Five for Leeds and just a slap on the wrist.

Consistency?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SL17 said:

A windmill for Hull KR this evening for three penalties on the bounce. Five for Leeds and just a slap on the wrist.

Consistency?

List me what all the penalties were for, where on the pitch they were, the time period between them, tell me what the ref said to players when he gave the penalties to individual players and I may be able to comment. Without all the information it is just the ref doing his job as far as I'm concerned.

Ever been a referee at a decent level?

  • Like 2

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

 

It's like some people have never even been in the same hemisphere as an actual game never mind watched or played it. It is utterly astonishing that anyone with any game experience whatsoever would think less communication between referee and player would make a better game

You are easily astonished, aren't you? Please consider that their may just occasionally be a tiny element of validity in the opinions of those with whom you disagree.

Watched, played, taught, coached RL for decades. I found that coaching from the touchline had little effect: players were a little too busy to listen. I found that when refereeing, the less said, the better: in most walks of life, repeat the same comments over and over again for long enough and it becomes meaningless twaddle. Forum behaviour show that.

I watched Leeds v HKR on tv last night with, for once, the sound on. The referee pestered, coached advised, instructed, announced, admonished from before the kick-off and throughout with hardly a pause for breath. It didn’t seem to enhance the flow of play, or stop Leeds with their hands on the ball at the end of the tackle, or moving off the mark when playing the ball. In fact, for all that he said, I saw little modification in behaviour throughout: perhaps he should have said more. At least HKR enhanced the flow with adventurous play and entertaining rugby.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Padge said:

 

Ever been a referee at a decent level?

Yes I have, and there are some good points above and some absolute cobblers, but I’ll just give one anecdote, end of season game, two mid table teams, effectively nowt to play for. I’m having this very conversation with the two coaches before the game, they make a suggestion, why don’t I penalise everything I see rather than giving warnings about “next time” etc.

So I do, for 10 minutes at which point I decide to abandon the experiment as we’ve already had a penalty a minute.

if this is what you as fans want then so be it but I don’t think you do, do you? 

  • Like 2

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Phil said:

Yes I have, and there are some good points above and some absolute cobblers, but I’ll just give one anecdote, end of season game, two mid table teams, effectively nowt to play for. I’m having this very conversation with the two coaches before the game, they make a suggestion, why don’t I penalise everything I see rather than giving warnings about “next time” etc.

So I do, for 10 minutes at which point I decide to abandon the experiment as we’ve already had a penalty a minute.

if this is what you as fans want then so be it but I don’t think you do, do you? 

That's a load of bollards Phil, it must have been more than one per minute. 😉

😃

  • Haha 1

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sometimes wish that the refs would actually coach my team! 😀


Four legs good - two legs bad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Phil said:

Yes I have, and there are some good points above and some absolute cobblers, but I’ll just give one anecdote, end of season game, two mid table teams, effectively nowt to play for. I’m having this very conversation with the two coaches before the game, they make a suggestion, why don’t I penalise everything I see rather than giving warnings about “next time” etc.

So I do, for 10 minutes at which point I decide to abandon the experiment as we’ve already had a penalty a minute.

if this is what you as fans want then so be it but I don’t think you do, do you? 

yep, a problem.. No problem with warning as long as next time it is penalised. 

Although by not penalising your giving that teams a helping hand or another way penalising the other team for letting the team that get a warning to get away with it.   Penalties make a huge momentum benefit to a team... thats the underlying problem

If a player knows its typically a warning at least the first time, then surely they don't try to "behave" and it becomes the way you play, as surely penalties makes them have to learn/behave eventually.   Of course needs all ref's and backing from administrators (RFL etc) if its going to work as no doubt initially for a few weeks loads of moaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Padge said:

That's a load of bollards Phil, it must have been more than one per minute. 😉

😃

It probably was, this is years ago now 


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Padge said:

List me what all the penalties were for, where on the pitch they were, the time period between them, tell me what the ref said to players when he gave the penalties to individual players and I may be able to comment. Without all the information it is just the ref doing his job as far as I'm concerned.

Ever been a referee at a decent level?

The question? Is consistency!  3 on the bounce obviously outweighs 5 on the bounce.

Too many grey areas..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/07/2019 at 11:28, Dunedan said:

Once again, referees are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Too many penalties spoils the game, too few also spoils the game. Who'd be a ref?

The problem with your example is that defenders are allowed different amounts of time in the tackle. A defender in a "dominant" or "surrender" tackle is given more leeway than, say, the defender who makes a desperation tackle after a line break. Do we really want the players guessing the referees interpretation of the tackle and hence how long they can stay in the ruck?

Warn players if there are about to infringe, penalise them if they do. Keep the game flowing.

As for the shout of "40, 40..." on 40-20 attempts, that could also be for the other officials so they know what the call is.

As I explained, penalising all the time may well make the spectacle poor to start with, however players/coaches have to change otherwise they'll get marched downfield and get next to no posession. It doesn't spoil the game, it's the players spoiling the game. When the players play within the laws, and they will have to more often because they know the ref won't prompt and won't not penalise, then the game will improve very, very rapidly.

Human beings are predictable, we see how the example of making people taking responsibility for change of behaviour based on knowing they will absolutely be punished every single time does work. An example of why motorists drive like morons most of the time is because like rugby players they know they can get with it more often than not, actually massive disparity in getting caught to not, hence why so many people die/get maimed. Whilst the ultimate outcome is different (people not getting killed on the pitch), the psychology is identical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...