Bring back exiles game and war of the roses

[Tommygilf]

The focus has to be on internationals.

England (even if SL only if the NRL won't play ball and if so please don't call it the knights), Wales and France through the season. Exiles could be part of that series guaranteeing each side at least 1 home game a year.

Include sides like Jamaica, Ireland, Scotland, Italy etc. in future. 

Take the international game seriously and make it regular and the rest may just fall into place.

[JonM]

12 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I don’t see why Roses shouldn’t be brought back. Based on 1896 borders to appease any trivial detractors. Two game series, with an England v France test culminating in three Rep game weekends. 

Look at the attendances the fixture got:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_League_War_of_the_Roses

If after more than 100 years, it's failed to catch on, what are the chances it will now?

Does any other major British sport have an intermediate level between club and national side? I can't think of one.

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The focus has to be on internationals.

England (even if SL only if the NRL won't play ball and if so please don't call it the knights), Wales and France through the season. Exiles could be part of that series guaranteeing each side at least 1 home game a year.

Include sides like Jamaica, Ireland, Scotland, Italy etc. in future. 

Take the international game seriously and make it regular and the rest may just fall into place.

100% this!

I would love us to have something like the state of origin but we dont have the history/infrastructure/borders/ feeling that they do.. however England v wales v france is the sort of thing that gets the blood pumping in the same way for all those countries.

[17 stone giant]

7 minutes ago, JonM said:

Does any other major British sport have an intermediate level between club and national side? I can't think of one.

Off the top of my head, I can't either. However, it could be argued that they don't need to, whereas rugby league maybe does need to.

If we take England in football, cricket and rugby union, there are plenty of viable opponents for England teams to play. I say viable in the sense that they would be well attended, make money, and be genuinely competitive matches.

Who is there in rugby league for England to play - especially at home where we have an extra advantage? Only really Australia and New Zealand, as things currently stand.

[17 stone giant]

18 minutes ago, RP London said:

however England v wales v france is the sort of thing that gets the blood pumping in the same way for all those countries.

I just think that's way too simplistic. It makes it sound as though you can put on those matches in big stadiums and 30000+ passionate fans would turn up. In reality, you'd be lucky to get 5000, because most people would know that it wasn't an even contest.

England's matches against France since 2010 have ended 44-6, 36-6, 40-6, 84-4, 34-6, 48-4, 44-6, 32-8, 60-6.

England against Wales since 2008: 80-12, 42-4, 48-12, 74-0

I wonder how many of those massively one sided matches, got anyone's "blood pumping".

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I just think that's way too simplistic. It makes it sound as though you can put on those matches in big stadiums and 30000+ passionate fans would turn up. In reality, you'd be lucky to get 5000, because most people would know that it wasn't an even contest.

England's matches against France since 2010 have ended 44-6, 36-6, 40-6, 84-4, 34-6, 48-4, 44-6, 32-8, 60-6.

England against Wales since 2008: 80-12, 42-4, 48-12, 74-0

I wonder how many of those massively one sided matches, got anyone's "blood pumping".

don't talk nonsense i haven't made out any such thing about 30000+ passionate fans FFS!.. 

the state of origin took a few years to "grip the nation" for a start and as was said in the post i was quoting we don't need the NRL players and actually i would actively not have them (as i have stated in about a million posts on similar subjects) so to help keep the games a bit more even. 

All of this is slowly slowly... but even at the start they will get more than some fictitious "war of the roses" (I am a passionate yorkshireman and couldn't give a stuff about it) or Exiles match which I though was a waste of space the last time it was out.

and of course it is a bit simplistic.. I am not going to spend time coming up with a detailed 15 point plan for an international game for which I have not control on an internet forum while at work to be fair!

[17 stone giant]

56 minutes ago, RP London said:

don't talk nonsense i haven't made out any such thing about 30000+ passionate fans FFS!.. 

I know you weren't, but the reality is that when you talk about rivalries that supposedly get the blood pumping, in most other major sports that does result in large crowds and large tv audiences.

I recognise that you were talking more about the long term, but I guess I'm just a bit sceptical because I've been hearing that sort of positive talk from people within RL for 25 years or more.

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I know you weren't, but the reality is that when you talk about rivalries that supposedly get the blood pumping, in most other major sports that does result in large crowds and large tv audiences.

I recognise that you were talking more about the long term, but I guess I'm just a bit sceptical because I've been hearing that sort of positive talk from people within RL for 25 years or more.

if we were expecting 30k off the first hit then we may as well do nothing (which is exactly what we are doing). 

RL has been too short term for too long. we just need to do something and stick with it and this is the one thing that has the possibility of doing something unlike the roses or exiles concept. If we did this regularly with FTA TV coverage then it can grow..

and lets be fair, on the bit in bold, we're not a major sport we're a minor sport whether we like it or not and whether we want to admit it or not, but in reality we have 2-3 "major sports" in this country, Football, RU (like it or not) and perhaps cricket (and even then only certain events) that can possibly look to get 30,000 to international/rep games. 

[17 stone giant]

22 minutes ago, RP London said:

RL has been too short term for too long. we just need to do something and stick with it and this is the one thing that has the possibility of doing something unlike the roses or exiles concept. If we did this regularly with FTA TV coverage then it can grow..

I suppose that's the judgement the sport has to make - what avenues does it go down, and what does it decide isn't ever going to work and therefore isn't worth pursuing.

I hope that Wales and France both do develop - I've certainly got high hopes for France, because they have the population size that I think could one day mean they were genuinely competitive as a Tier 1 nation.

Wales I'm less optimistic about. I think they can produce a handful of great players, but I doubt whether their population size will enable Wales to ever have a RL team that can compete with the Tier 1 nations. I think that football and rugby union will entice away the best talent. I really hope I'm wrong, but that's just how I see things.

And I just worry that even if we started today, we're all going to have maybe 15 or 20 years of watching one-sided matches, before we can even hope to see matches between England and Wales/France that will genuinely get our blood pumping. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, because it probably is and we should do it. But is there nothing else we can do as well in the meantime - Roses or Origin - while we're waiting for this development to happen?

[RP London]

16 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

And I just worry that even if we started today, we're all going to have maybe 15 or 20 years of watching one-sided matches, before we can even hope to see matches between England and Wales/France that will genuinely get our blood pumping. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, because it probably is and we should do it. But is there nothing else we can do as well in the meantime - Roses or Origin - while we're waiting for this development to happen?

we're always 15-20 years away which stops people doing anything.. if we start now that 15-20 years goes by, if we dont then we are always 15-20 years away.. 

with regards the Roses... just look at what is said here from West of the Pennines.. if you cannot get 50% of your target audience to give a toss (for GUBRATS.. I'll balance you out, your up for it in the west i'm not keen on the east).. I would love this concept to work but it just wont IMHO. there is no other "Origin" possibility... i've spent years on this board and discussed it many times and every single time there is no satisfactory way of splitting the country i half and getting people to give a sh*t.... There is nothing any of us are really tied to like our club/national team Aussies have always had their states and felt for them... 

[craig hamilton]

No and no, for me.

Exiles was a good concept in principle, à la the Barbarians in RU but was not given enough time to embed as an annual event. The branding was also amateurish and quite cheesy, in my opinion.

The Lancashire versus Yorkshire game hold no appeal for me as I am Cumbrian. If we are ever to rid the game of the northern stereotype then this is something to avoid.

 

If anything, more international games.

[17 stone giant]

8 hours ago, craig hamilton said:

The Lancashire versus Yorkshire game hold no appeal for me as I am Cumbrian.

Presumably therefore matches such as Queensland v NSW, Wigan v St Helens, and Australia v NZ also hold no appeal for you?

[Oxford]

13 hours ago, craig hamilton said:

...................   but was not given enough time to embed as an annual event.

You could put approximately 5000 items in the space provided.

Add that to the lack of belief in your product illustrated by the Scarlet Pimpernel style of marketing and you'd have to whip it away before someone noticed how effective you were.

[craig hamilton]

7 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Presumably therefore matches such as Queensland v NSW, Wigan v St Helens, and Australia v NZ also hold no appeal for you?

Not the same, I'm afraid. Of course those matches hold an appeal for me but a Yorkshire versus Lancashire does not engage me in the same way as it would a native of those counties.

[GeordieSaint]

1 hour ago, craig hamilton said:

Not the same, I'm afraid. Of course those matches hold an appeal for me but a Yorkshire versus Lancashire does not engage me in the same way as it would a native of those counties.

Jeez... not often you talk sense; but agreed in this case!  

France vs England in France is the fixture we should be pursuing. It doesn't matter if England thump them. It's about giving the team an opportunity to develop and work on structures. It's about allowing the team to get together and develop bonds and relationships. You will not get that with parochial half measures like an English Origin concept, which if we are being honest, nobody really cares about other than the East of the Pennines.

An international weekend mirroring what's happening in the Southern Hemisphere is the correct approach. France vs England, Ireland vs Scotland and Wales vs Jamaica (since most play over here) makes absolute sense (clearly games can alternate between those nations).  

[Big Red Keev]

Personally I would be on board with both the Exiles and "Origin" games as concepts, but it would require the buy in of all the clubs, the RFL/Super League and the majority of supporters and based on this thread alone its clear that this wouldn't happen.

This being the case what would people think of re-embracing the GB Lions beyond the upcoming tour, and holding a mini tournament, to be held during the NRL Origin period, that includes England (England A), England Knights (England B), and the combined Celtic Nations, and treating it as an opportunity to make the combined GB squad.

I'm sure this isnt a new idea, and I'm sure plenty can point out why i'm an idiot but it occurs to me it would be a relatively cheap and easy way of providing reasonably competitive Games for England without Entire squads of players having to travel from one side of the planet to the other.

Anybody have any thoughts?

 

 

[17 stone giant]

On 18/07/2019 at 08:06, craig hamilton said:

Not the same, I'm afraid. Of course those matches hold an appeal for me but a Yorkshire versus Lancashire does not engage me in the same way as it would a native of those counties.

I understand what you're saying, but couldn't you also look at it more positively? I'm from Hampshire so I don't have any stake in Yorkshire v Lancashire either - even less so in Queensland v NSW - but if I was watching some of the best players in the SL line up for both teams, and the crowds were good, then I'd have some interest in it. It would be top level sport, and there aren't lots of RL matches that I want to watch, because I don't support any particular club.

Granted I've made assumptions about the crowds being good etc. - and I'll freely admit that my interest would be affected by how seriously the match was treated by players and fans.

But just to illustrate what I mean - I've watched on YouTube last years legend's origin. I liked it because it was players that I know from representing England/GB in the past. I didn't actually care who won, but it was nice just to see a game that I could connect with. Personally, I would feel the same about a origin game at professional level. If it was done properly, I'd watch it.

I agree that I'd rather watch England/GB play, but they need to be matches that are fairly even. I don't want to watch us put 80 points on some nation that doesn't really play RL to any great standard. Given that there is a shortage of suitable opponents for England/GB, I thought an origin type match might help to bridge the gap between club matches and international matches. But I'm happy to accept that there's no interest in it. It's not a big deal for me. I've got lots of other stuff to do anyway. I'm not sitting around desperate for an origin match to take place.