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5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I used sarcasm to highlight your assumption that I thought Hull and Wakefields reserves were of any sort of decent quality(your victim mentality again) was misplaced. 

My apologies that it was too subtle for you. I thought I had laid it on pretty heavily

The trouble is distinguishing when you are being sarcastic or being your normal self. I will learn one day.

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I'm quite happy that they have made this decision and from the detail it looks like the have put quite a bit of thought into it. 

However, the most important thing is that they stick to a plan, as continual change must play havoc with developing players, especially late teens/early twenties as age group changes come and go.  I'm already resigned to the annual changes in the structure of the professional game but for player development we need a well thought out plan that meets the needs of the game as a whole and will be around for a long time.

 

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7 minutes ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

Chris Lister, a director of Halifax RLFC, has confirmed that they have applied. Fax have been running a Reserve Grade for years and have matched and beaten the reserves of Wigan, St.Helens, Hull/Hull KR, Wakefield, Warrington over the years. They lost 30-20 tonight away at Wakefield. Much like Fev etc the Reserve Grade team is financed by the Supporters Trust, with directors topping up any shortfall. The Supporters trust usually raise 30K

First Graders like Chester Butler (Welsh International), Ed Barber, Elliott Morris, Sion Jones (Welsh Student International) The Davies Brothers (Welsh student Internationals) James Woodburn-Hall (England Student International), Conor McGrath are in the Fax First team Squad. Theres Jamaican, German and Welsh Student internationals that played tonight for Fax. The benefits for the International game at various levels is also plain to see. The Welsh boys had never played League until studying at Leeds.

The  development of players like that, and the proper pathways to facilitate that, are what I like to see. When done well like that it is one of the major benefits that the lower leagues and its clubs bring and justifies their funding. Its also a reason not to contract and to have as many clubs as possible covering as many areas as possible. 

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20 minutes ago, Damien said:

It actually is. If Fev and Keighley can run reserves this season after all the issues that you describe then anyone can. There is certainly no excuse for Super League clubs that receive £1.8 million a year in funding.

Of course they can run a reserve team Pilk’s or St Pats can run reserve teams but would they be any use to Saints or Wigan. For SL reserve teams to be of any use the championship would have to revert to part time otherwise clubs are just wasting money. 

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5 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Of course they can run a reserve team Pilk’s or St Pats can run reserve teams but would they be any use to Saints or Wigan. For SL reserve teams to be of any use the championship would have to revert to part time otherwise clubs are just wasting money. 

Sorry that is a completely different argument to that what I had replied to which was that clubs could not afford to. Clubs that receive £1.8 million in funding, of course they can afford it. These are the same clubs that still said they couldn't afford it when their funding was increased by £500,000 in the latest TV deal. Its a very lazy, convenient excuse from clubs.

I completely disagree with your second sentence too. There certainly isn't anywhere near as much extra expense as people, who are against reserves, are trying to make out. Most clubs already have many, if not all, the coaches and a good portion of the necessary players anyway. Allowing clubs to retain their players in house, receiving top quality training, being taught good habits etc and playing to their systems and coaching is priceless. As is squad players being able to return from injury in a reserve competition or new signings being able to be introduced in a lower key environment. That is before you even consider the development needs of young players that can develop in a higher level than the u19s against more mature and more physical players.

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35 minutes ago, newbe said:

Might make Championship n League 1 a more honest contest. 

I don't think this and DR/loans need to be put in the same basket tbh.

Plus seeing as though the academies are being reduced to u18s, the current u19s format may just be extended by some clubs. Thus having little actual impact other than renaming.

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3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Sorry that is a completely different argument to that what I had replied to which was that clubs could not afford to. Clubs that receive £1.8 million in funding, of course they can afford it. These are the same clubs that still said they couldn't afford it when their funding was increased by £500,000 in the latest TV deal. Its a very lazy, convenient excuse from clubs.

I completely disagree with your second sentence too. There certainly isn't anywhere near as much extra expense as people, who are against reserves, are trying to make out. Most clubs already have many, if not all, the coaches and a good portion of the necessary players anyway. Allowing clubs to retain their players in house, receiving top quality training, being taught good habits etc and playing to their systems and coaching is priceless. As is squad players being able to return from injury in a reserve competition or new signings being able to be introduced in a lower key environment. That is before you even consider the development needs of young players that can develop in a higher level than the u19s against more mature and more physical players.

For SL reserves to be of any use the next best players in the country need to be in it. When this was first brought up people were saying you could run a reserve team for £300k. So if Toronto Leigh Fev Widnes Halifax Toulouse and probably a few more are spending over £1m on salary’s. What use is a reserve team for a SL club who once you’ve took costs out will be spending about £200k on salaries. This will purely be for show and have virtually no practical use whatsoever. What sort or seasoned professionals do you think squads would be retaining on that sort of money. 

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27 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

For SL reserves to be of any use the next best players in the country need to be in it. When this was first brought up people were saying you could run a reserve team for £300k. So if Toronto Leigh Fev Widnes Halifax Toulouse and probably a few more are spending over £1m on salary’s. What use is a reserve team for a SL club who once you’ve took costs out will be spending about £200k on salaries. This will purely be for show and have virtually no practical use whatsoever. What sort or seasoned professionals do you think squads would be retaining on that sort of money. 

Any figures I have seen for the cost of reserves have been no where near those amounts and any club that I have seen quote amounts have always been in double figures and sub £100k. For example Wakefield said it cost them £30,000 for a reserve team this year. Wigan said a reserve team would only cost them an extra £60,000.

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I'm sure I read that it was costing something like £50k for Halifax to run a reserves team, so not really a huge amount at that level to be sustainable. Obviously that isn't SL quality players but I don't see it being a massive additional cost for SL clubs either.

Just looking at our U19s (Saints), we've got what looks like eight in their final year so they'd be into the reserves. Plus you'd likely also have the better of the younger ones (e.g. Welsby and Simm) and those on the fringes of the first team or on dual reg who don't make the 17/19 (e.g. Amor, Richardson, Batchelor, Douglas, Costello). You're maybe looking at needing an extra seven or eight players altogether. I guess the question is where do they come from? Local amateurs (that's a big step up)? Championship teams?

I think that's a problem worth solving though. The likes of Welsby et al are likely to get much more out of playing teams of that quality than staying in the U19s or out on dual reg in L1 or the Championship.

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In terms of developing players it's only going to work if the reserve league is of a higher standard than the Championship. If it's a lower standard then it's a waste of time and the players moving from SL academy to first team would be better off playing on loan in the Championship.

It'll be interesting to see how many clubs continue to send players out on loan/DR next season.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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6 hours ago, nadera78 said:

In terms of developing players it's only going to work if the reserve league is of a higher standard than the Championship. If it's a lower standard then it's a waste of time and the players moving from SL academy to first team would be better off playing on loan in the Championship.

It'll be interesting to see how many clubs continue to send players out on loan/DR next season.

The standard is one part of the equation but I don't think we should underestimate the value of staying within a consistent coaching structure under one club.  A player bouncing from Championship to League 1 back to Academy under 19's with 3 different clubs is not going to get the chance to properly develop their game.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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7 hours ago, Damien said:

Any figures I have seen for the cost of reserves have been no where near those amounts and any club that I have seen quote amounts have always been in double figures and sub £100k. For example Wakefield said it cost them £30,000 for a reserve team this year. Wigan said a reserve team would only cost them an extra £60,000.

That makes my point for me what sort of squad are you going to be able to put together for that sort of money. Sure run an u23s side wit the allowance of a few over age players like we used to. Which would let those young players stay in a pro environment for a few extra years. Let’s not kid ourselves that adding 12 players from the amateur game on £150 a game to the 5 or 6 first team players without a game that week is somehow a genuine reserve league. 

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7 hours ago, nadera78 said:

In terms of developing players it's only going to work if the reserve league is of a higher standard than the Championship. If it's a lower standard then it's a waste of time and the players moving from SL academy to first team would be better off playing on loan in the Championship.

It'll be interesting to see how many clubs continue to send players out on loan/DR next season.

That's just not true. There are very good reasons why clubs have said time and again that they want a proper reserve grade which have already been discussed.

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7 hours ago, nadera78 said:

In terms of developing players it's only going to work if the reserve league is of a higher standard than the Championship. If it's a lower standard then it's a waste of time and the players moving from SL academy to first team would be better off playing on loan in the Championship.

It'll be interesting to see how many clubs continue to send players out on loan/DR next season.

I've heard that point before and do understand it, I just think it misses the point. 

The reserves vs championship/L1 should be a lateral choice rather than vertical in terms of player development. Some players need more time in a pro environment before they can step up to SL, similarly others might want an opportunity to show their capability in a certain teams style of play - they might suit reserves more.

Others may need a taste of the world outside SL to mature them and help them improve their game - loans and DR becoming more important on that front.

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7 hours ago, nadera78 said:

In terms of developing players it's only going to work if the reserve league is of a higher standard than the Championship. If it's a lower standard then it's a waste of time and the players moving from SL academy to first team would be better off playing on loan in the Championship.

It'll be interesting to see how many clubs continue to send players out on loan/DR next season.

I don't necessarily agree with this - some players would develop better in the Championship for instance (in fact I would hope this is a better standard than the reserve grade or IMO there's a problem), although some just wouldn't be ready to mix it up in the first team against players and teams on the fringes of SL, and that's where the reserve grade comes in. Develop players in the reserves, then if they're knocking on the door maybe look at sending them out on loan or giving them a run out in the first team. I think each player is different and so having a reserve grade gives an extra option for development, while not being the be all and end all.

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6 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

That makes my point for me what sort of squad are you going to be able to put together for that sort of money. Sure run an u23s side wit the allowance of a few over age players like we used to. Which would let those young players stay in a pro environment for a few extra years. Let’s not kid ourselves that adding 12 players from the amateur game on £150 a game to the 5 or 6 first team players without a game that week is somehow a genuine reserve league. 

This is where I can see problems arising. Just because we have compulsory reserve grade does not make it compulsory for all clubs to max it out. Some will use it to its fullest potential, some will just extend their academy process with a few non starting first teamers, and some with dare I say it budgetary concerns and lack of faith and vision will do what you suggest above.

Only time will tell.

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Just now, bobbruce said:

That makes my point for me what sort of squad are you going to be able to put together for that sort of money. Sure run an u23s side wit the allowance of a few over age players like we used to. Which would let those young players stay in a pro environment for a few extra years. Let’s not kid ourselves that adding 12 players from the amateur game on £150 a game to the 5 or 6 first team players without a game that week is somehow a genuine reserve league. 

Clubs already have many of these players and coaches. U19s is dropping down to u18s. They already have first team squads of 25 or more. There is not this huge additional expense or increase in players needed. The same amount of players will be signed at 16 as before and will work up. If anything a reserve League may actually keep players in the game, rather than them being lost at 19 when they leave it dejected if they don't make it at a Super League club. You seem to be completely ignoring these points to suit your argument.

I have not seen anyone ever mention anything about adding 12 players from the amateur game on £150 a week. That is plainly made up and nonsense.

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1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

This is where I can see problems arising. Just because we have compulsory reserve grade does not make it compulsory for all clubs to max it out. Some will use it to its fullest potential, some will just extend their academy process with a few non starting first teamers, and some with dare I say it budgetary concerns and lack of faith and vision will do what you suggest above.

Only time will tell.

I think what I’m suggesting is the extreme end of it. It will at best be the old u23s league which when we had it clubs still used DR because the standard of the league wasn’t high enough to develop the top young players. 

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1 minute ago, bobbruce said:

I think what I’m suggesting is the extreme end of it. It will at best be the old u23s league which when we had it clubs still used DR because the standard of the league wasn’t high enough to develop the top young players. 

I see what you're saying but I also think the whole game has moved since then.

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2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the effect of this on the salary cap, surely it would have to increase?

Only the top 25 players/earners (or players outside that that have played x amount of first team games) count on the cap so it shouldn’t affect it. 

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18 hours ago, DiH68 said:

Genuine question - if Toronto get promoted (1)I presume they would have to run a reserve side. Would they be purely English based (2)?

(1) The requirement is "Mandatory" so this means yes. The mandatory requirement (2) is also that the teams play "Home and Away" so Toronto could base their "A" team here but are are facing recruiting even more players (another 30) from here to be flown backwards and forwards across the Atlantic to play "A" team home matches.  I assume that Superleague clubs and anyone else involved in the Reserve Grade will not want to pay the costs for their travels and accommodation so that will be down to Mr. Argyle (If you can find him) to fund for 60 reserve players and their coaches across however many teams are in the league that they will have to play at home to in Canada. Obviously Ottawa can apply too but they are yet to sign a player for their first team.

I notice nobody wants to discuss this and I don't either. For me it's a great chance for TWP to fill their reserves with players from the USARL, from Canada RL, from Toronto Arrows, from Grid Iron, from NA rugby Union, and anybody physically capable enough and talented enough to perhaps cut it in Rugby league. This way Argyle only has to pay for the away teams to get to Toronto. Lets see if he takes this "player development" opportunity??

8 hours ago, nadera78 said:

In terms of developing players it's only going to work if the reserve league is of a higher standard than the Championship. If it's a lower standard then it's a waste of time and the players moving from SL academy to first team would be better off playing on loan in the Championship.

Good post because as usual you look at the bigger picture. What you haven't done is look carefully at the recent history of Superleague in which they have taken control of what Superleague want to do from the RFL. Last year as Lenegan announced they wanted an SL1 and an SL 2 of 10 clubs each. The way the politics worked meant that in those circumstances Superleague got voted down by Chalmers and the Championship chairmen. The tail wagged the dog because so many of those clubs saw it as the end for them.

It now looks like the dog is recruiting Championship clubs who aspire to be Superleague clubs by setting a laudable standard for player development that any club who aspires to get into Superleague has to follow. This is drawing Championship clubs who aspire to be in Superleague to start applying to be part of the Superleague reserve system which in turn qualifies them to be promoted to Superleague.

No Reserves = no Superleague. So some Championship sides are now appearing to be getting on board with this "Superleague" requirement on the basis if you can't beat them join them - at least at reserve grade level.It may be no coincidence up to 20 clubs could sign up for this.

As Rimmer goes off on his own to seek out the likes of Channel 4, Lenegan has already got some sort of lesser deal than the current one with SKY half promised, probably enough to fund 10 decent SL sides - all ones with rich owners, and accommodate another 10 sides for an SL2 whilst 16 clubs are cut adrift to be left to Rimmer to sort out.

In that likely scenario supported by by events, it may well be (Your point) that aspiring pro players will want to be aligned with one of those 20 Superleague (1) or Superleague (2) clubs, not a heavily depleted Championship club. The timing of this move appears to be deliberate to basically say to all clubs - Now YOU CHOOSE YOUR FUTURE 2021 ONWARDS - do you want to be part of SL1 & SL2 or do you want to be in a Chalmers Championship?

The vote looks to be swinging Lenegan's way......Now sit back and see who signs up and who doesn't!!

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21 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

I notice nobody wants to discuss this and I don't either. For me it's a great chance for TWP to fill their reserves with players from the USARL, from Canada RL, from Toronto Arrows, from Grid Iron, from NA rugby Union, and anybody physically capable enough and talented enough to perhaps cut it in Rugby league. This way Argyle only has to pay for the away teams to get to Toronto. Lets see if he takes this "player development" opportunity??

I agree with you.  The formation of the new reserve league could be the best thing to happen to Toronto and the development of Rugby League talent over there.  If we think it is difficult to develop new and raw talent over here (Luther Burrell for example not having a competition to cut his teeth in) then imagine how difficult it is in Toronto to find one or two talented and motivated individuals and then have no opportunity to develop them.

As we have seen over decades, a reserve league is a great non pressure incubator for individuals who are talented enough to play top level League but are not ready yet.  'If' Toronto make it to Super League then I also hope they use the reserve League format to develop local talent.  Let's both keep our fingers crossed they take advantage of this opportunity. 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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11 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

11 definite + 5 'interested'

If we end up with 16 teams, will there be two divisions? Conferences?

Can't see that a 30 game season is going to happen (it has already been said it will be a home and away schedule)

 

If it does end up being 2 divisions its going to be a bit of a kick in the teeth for any team already running a reserve team if they end up in the 2nd division.

10 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Firstly, what’s the standard going to be like? From a Saints point of view, we have Josh Simm playing weekly on dual-reg with Leigh, he seems, from what I read, to be doing quite well there but the question I ask regarding the re-introduction of a reserve grade is, is he better off playing for Saints Reserves against Leigh’s reserves, or is he better off playing for Leigh’s first team in a real competitive game at Championship level against a Bradford, Featherstone or Toronto? Looking at our current squad, Jack Ashworth and James Bentley have been success stories of regular game time at Championship level with the likes of Rochdale and Sheffield. 

In my opinion this is a big part of what is wrong with the game. Hopefully in future players like this will be sent on season long loans as in my opinion DR has just given teams a way of stock piling players which in turn dilutes the quality of the competition as a whole. 

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