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scotchy1

The Challenge Cup, visibility, coverage etc.

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

When there were 2 or 3 channels maybe. It doesnt now and hasnt for a while

The Challenge Cup final was still attracting around 5 million up to and including 1995 after the advent of multi channel TV.  There was a massive drop off in numbers following the advent of Super League - this is no coincidence.

But at all events you would agree that the names and locations of the clubs competing did not put people off watching or attending?

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19 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

The Challenge Cup final was still attracting around 5 million up to and including 1995 after the advent of multi channel TV.  There was a massive drop off in numbers following the advent of Super League - this is no coincidence.

But at all events you would agree that the names and locations of the clubs competing did not put people off watching or attending?

Far more people have multi channel TV these days than in 1995. There wasn't even digital TV or streaming then and many still had only 4 channels in 1995. Barely anyone had even heard of the internet. It was a completely different time to now.

Edited by Damien
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11 minutes ago, Damien said:

Far more people have multi channel TV these days than in 1995. There wasn't even digital TV or streaming then and many still had only 4 channels in 1995. Barely anyone had even heard of the internet. It was a completely different time to now.

Ok, I'm all ears for the reasons for the dramatic drop in audience from 1996 (down to 2.8 million) onward, to this day when we are happy to get just over a million.

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3 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

Ok, I'm all ears for the reasons for the dramatic drop in audience from 1996 (down to 2.8 million) onward, to this day when we are happy to get just over a million.

You obviously aren't if you are asking the question again!

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed. Still 2 against SL teams and 1 against presumably a good qualifier too means they're not much different to our stupid loop system now.

Cup...  start of season  Draw the Cup with 32 teams.  Carry on as before. When we get to the final 8 have a round robin, use a draw some how for home and away.  Top 4 go to semis.

Super League ... Start after the Cup... with maximum 24 rounds.

 

PS... Those who do not qualify for last 8 go into a plate competition.  Play that at Headingly.. because they need the money.

Edited by Rupert Prince
sundry edits. !!!

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8 minutes ago, Damien said:

You obviously aren't if you are asking the question again!

I am genuinely interested if you have a reason for the dramatic drop in figures from 1996 onward. What could have happened in Rugby League in 1996 to prompt this?

Any reasonable person knows the answer but I'm unsure why there are some "deniers" and what they know that no-one else does.

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7 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Cup...    Draw the Cup with 32 teams.  Carry on as before. When we get to the final 8 have a round robin, use a draw some how for home and away.  Top 4 go to semis.

Start at the beginning of season and at the end just start the SL season... with maximum 24 rounds.

 

PS... Those who do not qualify for last 8 go into a plate competition.  Play that at Headingly.. because they need the money.

I just don't think there is the hunger for knockout cups anymore like there used to be I'm afraid. Hence why I support the group stage model.

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5 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

I am genuinely interested if you have a reason for the dramatic drop in figures from 1996 onward. What could have happened in Rugby League in 1996 to prompt this?

Any reasonable person knows the answer but I'm unsure why there are some "deniers" and what they know that no-one else does.

Same thing happened in RL as happened in Football as happened in RU, at least 1 thing bigger overtook it and attitudes towards one off knockout cups changed hugely. 

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27 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

I am genuinely interested if you have a reason for the dramatic drop in figures from 1996 onward. What could have happened in Rugby League in 1996 to prompt this?

Any reasonable person knows the answer but I'm unsure why there are some "deniers" and what they know that no-one else does.

Your jousting with Damien has really got me interested but I don't understand what either of you is saying.

Is it true that viewing figures dropped from 5 million plus to 2.8 million in one year and subsequently dwindled to just over a million?

If so, why?

I don't think of myself as unreasonable nor a denier but I didn't know that dramatic drop had occurred, nor do I know why.

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

I just don't think there is the hunger for knockout cups anymore like there used to be I'm afraid. Hence why I support the group stage model.

All true enough... but...

A last 8 round robin is simply a league, so just no different to one of the 'divisions' in say a world cup.

Before last 8 round robin, have a under23 England v France game to allow sort out the fixtures. And as before, have a plate competition for those who lost.

This all strikes me as being quite straight forward and not complicated and has knock out element which keep the interest.  Maybe to complicated it, bring in seeding for the first round but at some point there would be big games in the early knock outs.

The point about Cups is that its down to luck and whats o. the day.  It should not be about who is the best of the bunch.  That is about the league and it's playoffs.  The cup is not the be all and end all.  Cup football is different... but as I have outlined then if it gives excitement to the TV audience then it could generate income.

Edited by Rupert Prince

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1 hour ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

I am genuinely interested if you have a reason for the dramatic drop in figures from 1996 onward. What could have happened in Rugby League in 1996 to prompt this?

Any reasonable person knows the answer but I'm unsure why there are some "deniers" and what they know that no-one else does.

Ok so I was genuinely intrigued by your figures and everything I have found shows them to be false. There was certainly no drop from 5 million in 1995 to 2.8 million in 1996. There was a drop of 500,000 from 3.3 million to 2.8 million which is hardly on the scale of what you are talking about. There was indeed a much bigger drop from 1992 to 1993 or from 1998 to 1999.

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Is there actually any appetite for a group stage within the Challenge Cup? 

Us fans think that there’s too many games at present at Super League level and the loop games aren’t warranted but as a club chairman, given the opportunity to potentially play your local rivals or one of the big names of the competition twice at home or to play them once at home and to then have to play a lower league side in a group stage of a cup competition, it’s  just a no-brainier and essentially that’s how the decision would ever be made, if it were ever discussed. 

Even amongst fans, I’m not sure there’s actually an appetite there. If people aren’t going to turn out for the eleventh or twelfth edition of Wigan v Warrington in two and a bit years this time as a cup game, what makes people think that there’s going to be more of an appetite for Wigan v Lower League Team and Warrington v Lower League Team in group games for the Challenge Cup? 

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15 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Is there actually any appetite for a group stage within the Challenge Cup? 

Us fans think that there’s too many games at present at Super League level and the loop games aren’t warranted but as a club chairman, given the opportunity to potentially play your local rivals or one of the big names of the competition twice at home or to play them once at home and to then have to play a lower league side in a group stage of a cup competition, it’s  just a no-brainier and essentially that’s how the decision would ever be made, if it were ever discussed. 

Even amongst fans, I’m not sure there’s actually an appetite there. If people aren’t going to turn out for the eleventh or twelfth edition of Wigan v Warrington in two and a bit years this time as a cup game, what makes people think that there’s going to be more of an appetite for Wigan v Lower League Team and Warrington v Lower League Team in group games for the Challenge Cup? 

I think there are maybe a couple of things that can help, although it is a fair challenge, as the repeat games between the top teams still get the decent crowds.

One positive is that you can sell season tickets to include the cup as you have guaranteed 3 home games. There is also the fact that a draw would still be used meaning some variety and interest around that. Finally I think the fact that it is a separate comp can keep it interesting. A team may be mid-table doing nowt in the league but get a run of wins in the cup and keep their season interesting and alive. There is also the opportunity for proper cup kits etc. 

I dont think it is the only saviour of the comp, but I think it could be better than it currently is.

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think there are maybe a couple of things that can help, although it is a fair challenge, as the repeat games between the top teams still get the decent crowds.

One positive is that you can sell season tickets to include the cup as you have guaranteed 3 home games. There is also the fact that a draw would still be used meaning some variety and interest around that. Finally I think the fact that it is a separate comp can keep it interesting. A team may be mid-table doing nowt in the league but get a run of wins in the cup and keep their season interesting and alive. There is also the opportunity for proper cup kits etc. 

I dont think it is the only saviour of the comp, but I think it could be better than it currently is.

Logistically, where are three or four extra games going to be squeezed into an already over inflated calendar? We’re not going to drop loop games for another couple of years at least.

You can sell season tickets with Cup games in the format now, it’s done in Football. Some clubs give so many as “free” and after that amount, there’s a cost and the money is taken from bank accounts, unless people opt out. No home Cup games, no freebies and no extra costs for fans. 

 

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T20 Cricket is a different format to “traditional” club cricket and creates huge income for sides (Surrey posted a pre-tax profit of £1.6m in 16/17 when hosting no Test games) and is very well attended. 

Now, I’m not suggesting we turn the Challenge Cup into some form of 7’s/9’s tournament but there’s got to be a different way to market the Challenge Cup, in the same way there’s a different way to market the T20 from classic five-day cricket and I’m sure the games are marketed at different people than the five-day game but there must be a way we can use the Challenge Cup as an opportunity to show something else rather than it just being another game in a season. 

There’s nothing different around a Cup game, nothing differentiates it from a current league game and it just doesn’t have the feel of a knockout game or a big game about Cup games. It’s just a bit bland, a bit run of the mill and a bit mundane. 

Lets market it differently and aim ourselves at a different market than 50 year-old’s. 

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28 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

T20 Cricket is a different format to “traditional” club cricket and creates huge income for sides (Surrey posted a pre-tax profit of £1.6m in 16/17 when hosting no Test games) and is very well attended. 

Now, I’m not suggesting we turn the Challenge Cup into some form of 7’s/9’s tournament but there’s got to be a different way to market the Challenge Cup, in the same way there’s a different way to market the T20 from classic five-day cricket and I’m sure the games are marketed at different people than the five-day game but there must be a way we can use the Challenge Cup as an opportunity to show something else rather than it just being another game in a season. 

There’s nothing different around a Cup game, nothing differentiates it from a current league game and it just doesn’t have the feel of a knockout game or a big game about Cup games. It’s just a bit bland, a bit run of the mill and a bit mundane. 

Lets market it differently and aim ourselves at a different market than 50 year-old’s. 

Yes it does , the loser is out , end of , that's why it's called the ' Challenge Cup ' unless you want to go to the original concept of everybody plays a knockout comp to challenge the previous year's winner ?

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8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes it does , the loser is out , end of , that's why it's called the ' Challenge Cup ' unless you want to go to the original concept of everybody plays a knockout comp to challenge the previous year's winner ?

I’m not sure what point in my post you’re replying to, tbh. 

 

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1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Logistically, where are three or four extra games going to be squeezed into an already over inflated calendar? We’re not going to drop loop games for another couple of years at least.

You can sell season tickets with Cup games in the format now, it’s done in Football. Some clubs give so many as “free” and after that amount, there’s a cost and the money is taken from bank accounts, unless people opt out. No home Cup games, no freebies and no extra costs for fans. 

 

It could only come as a replacement for existing games. 

My personal preference would be to absorb the cost tbh into the season ticket and keep the format as it is. They did it a few years back for the first proper round and the crowds held up relatively well. I've even said I would be heavily subsidising TV games to pack grounds out for the exposure we get on BBC.

Whilst I would be good with the groups format, I am a massive fan of knockout.

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2 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

All true enough... but...

A last 8 round robin is simply a league, so just no different to one of the 'divisions' in say a world cup.

Before last 8 round robin, have a under23 England v France game to allow sort out the fixtures. And as before, have a plate competition for those who lost.

This all strikes me as being quite straight forward and not complicated and has knock out element which keep the interest.  Maybe to complicated it, bring in seeding for the first round but at some point there would be big games in the early knock outs.

The point about Cups is that its down to luck and whats o. the day.  It should not be about who is the best of the bunch.  That is about the league and it's playoffs.  The cup is not the be all and end all.  Cup football is different... but as I have outlined then if it gives excitement to the TV audience then it could generate income.

I appreciate what you're saying, but the two other major European sports, football and RU, have both gone down the group stage cup route to maximise income and participation. That has to say something.

Knockout cups were massively popular for a century, they're less popular now.

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It could only come as a replacement for existing games. 

My personal preference would be to absorb the cost tbh into the season ticket and keep the format as it is. They did it a few years back for the first proper round and the crowds held up relatively well. I've even said I would be heavily subsidising TV games to pack grounds out for the exposure we get on BBC.

Whilst I would be good with the groups format, I am a massive fan of knockout.

As I and others have suggested, a H&A group stage against 3 opponents actually provides the 3 extra home games loop fixtures currently give. The only paid for games necessary therefore are the quarter finals (at one of the teams grounds), the semis (at Bolton for the foreseeable future) and the final. 

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11 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I’m not sure what point in my post you’re replying to, tbh. 

 

" There's nothing different around a cup game " , " it doesn't have the feel of a knockout game " , but it is a knockout game , loser goes home 

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Just now, Tommygilf said:

I appreciate what you're saying, but the two other major European sports, football and RU, have both gone down the group stage cup route to maximise income and participation. That has to say something.

Knockout cups were massively popular for a century, they're less popular now.

All true.  But we do not have IMHI enough clubs to produce a group stage (anymore than international cricket has)

But I do take your point and there could and should be a revision to the CC.

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Just now, Rupert Prince said:

All true.  But we do not have IMHI enough clubs to produce a group stage (anymore than international cricket has)

But I do take your point and there could and should be a revision to the CC.

Especially group games against the same opposition they play against week in week out , Champions League and Europa cup are different 

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5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Especially group games against the same opposition they play against week in week out , Champions League and Europa cup are different 

Indeed. It is completely different having group games with teams from other countries in genuinely international competitions. Does any domestic cup have group stages?

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