Chrispmartha Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said: I'm broadly in favour of licensing of some sort - I tend to think the pluses outweigh the minuses for the game overall - but we should be transparent about the downsides: how would 5 years stuck in the championship give Leigh the opportunity to do anything, particularly on the business side? Crowds and interest would be decimated. Clubs outside the top flight would become souped-up community clubs. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing because for many of them that offers a more stable long-term future. But for those on the cusp, the longer they are locked out from the top flight, the further away they will be from building a business that could survive in Superleague. In the UK at least, you can't build a Superleague club outside Superleague. Oh I don't think licensing is some kind of holy grail that will be sunlit uplands for the sport for ever more, there are no doubt downsides. regarding you last point, some clubs find it difficult to build a SL club inside SL at the moment as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: Regarding you last point, some clubs find it difficult to build a SL club inside SL at the moment as well Indeed they do, but they'd be doing even worse outside of it. Of course, that's not a reason to guarentee them a place, but it's just a fact that wherever they are at now would still be better than if locked out for 5 years. These debates always come down to the same question: how do we choose 12-ish clubs for the top flight when there's no more than about 7 clubs (at best) who can make the most of the place. As I say, I think a type of licencing is probably the answer, and there are probably clubs outside SL who could have a better shot at building something than some of those currently in. But it's not clear cut and there are profound risks to those left out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: It's an interesting question but is based on false premise that being that it is an either/or question that we have London or newcastle There's not an unlimited number of places though. Whether it's 14, 16 or 18, there's always going to be a club left out, and unfortunately for London, there's does seem to be quite a long list of clubs, both from heartland and other expansion areas, that look able to generate more value from a SL spot than London can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 We had no P&R for 70 years in RL and supposedly they were the greatest period for RL in the UK...then P&R was introduced and it spelled disaster to many clubs (my own included, a bad season led to 30 years of mediocrity and near extinction). P&R does nothing to strengthen or grow the game, it focuses the best players at a tiny group of clubs, some clubs bounce up and down in cycles usually until the money runs out chasing promotion and they go bust in some way. This isnt conjecture, its historical fact. Go take a look at the league tables. Even now we see how damaging P&R is, the same clubs are able to dominate the league, everyone else lives off scraps and the promoted team has no one it can recruit (nor can teams in the scrap recruit anyone of quality, the top four got them already). Moreover teams in the dogfight wont play academy players, no matter how talented they are, they arent consistent enough and so money is wasted on average journeyman instead who are reliable. Automatic P&R isnt part of Rugby League, and provides absolutely no positives whatsoever. Not a single one. The vast majority of clubs wont benefit from promotion, and the ones that might see movement just risk going bust year to year. Licensing was flawed, moreover it was badly run. But in my experience, and looking "big picture" it was the best state RL was in for decades. Run it properly, and despite its flaws RL will flourish and the teams that can work in the top flight will grow. Not all teams can manage that, and that might include my own team (without a rich backer) and if so, the fine. I'd rather see RL be strong and successful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Too many times in this debate the reason for not doing something is because it didnt work last time. Yet if we all ran our lives like that then we would never do anything.. the important thing is that you learn why and you adapt the plan. We also look far too much at the frankly small numbers of noses that would be put out of joint (and we only really assume that anyway) at the different levels. I think we overplay this too.. as much as there are people who say "its funny how this is brought up by Super league supporters" whereby equally many of the dissenting voices are form none super league clubs supporters.. this entire subject it as a lesson is self preservation.. P&R at present due to the state of the championship is dangerous (I am an eagles supporter so at the moment my club would be on the outside of any licensing).. either the champ needs to go full time with good funding (possible but at the moment it is some way away) or really licensing of some sort is needed. However, unlike everything else in RL time MUST be taken to decide criteria, which must be applied properly. Also time MUST be given to make sure that the clubs outside are also looked after and catered for and growth is possible. It could take years to come up with the plan and if that is what it takes then that is what it takes but it should not be fag packet or thought up on a whim. It also HAS to be given time.. the other point of looking back to the old system was not just that there were issues on how they applied the criteria but it was not given time to work and filter down (as per usual). either way i dont mind what happens but P&R needs funding below, licensing would need to be done properly. If neither is put in place properly (as above) then clubs will keep going bust when relegated or they will falter and fall when outside the ring fence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Omott91 said: Interesting opinion on the OP. https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/07/19/lessons-that-british-rugby-league-never-learn/ 8 hours ago, Omott91 said: Interesting opinion on the OP. https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/07/19/lessons-that-british-rugby-league-never-learn/ The article is sadly all too correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Lofter Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 32 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: The article is sadly all too correct. Yep.....100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I suppose it comes down to who you’re aiming yourself at. In the UK, typically P&R is a fundamental part of sport. In Football they have it and have even rolled it out Internationally in Europe now, in RU they have it, though I know there was discussion about scrapping it and in Cricket, it goes on too at domestic level too. In North America, it’s not really done. There’s no relegation in any major American sport as yet and it’s an alien concept to those sports. In Australia, again, like NA, it’s not really done. RU, RL, Football, AFL and Cricket don’t use P&R. There’s been a lot of talk centred around the 2021 TV deal and it being a seminal moment for the sport and I suppose we will be showing our game in all three areas and as such, should be taking into consideration what people in all three areas want to see. Is a relegation for Toronto going to massively effect the potential viewing figures of a Leeds v Wigan game in North America? Is relegation for Leeds this year going to effect viewership of games in Australasia for example? Now no teams should be favoured over others in our current format but it’s something that would need some analysis into going forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwis 13 6 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Here are some Available options and pros and cons that i can see for the next Super League broadcast deal. 1 - Promotion & Relegation - status quo promotion/relegation gained through on field performance. Pros - Gives Clubs outside of Super League a dream to aim for. If a club is Relegated they maybe able to gain promotion again the next year. Cons - not good for Broadcast Rights and Sponsors as no guarantee of exactly who and where the clubs in the competition will be from year to year. Competition is always at risk of being devalued by relegation, Clubs who have a bad season are always under threat and it makes long term planning difficult. Promoted Clubs have only 3-4 months notice to be prepared for a season in Super League. 2 . Conditional Promotion Relegation - promoted by on field performance but subject to meeting set criteria. Pros - Gives Clubs outside of Super League a dream to aim for. If a club is Relegated they maybe able to gain promotion again the next year. Also ensure that a team promoted fulfills the necessary criteria to be an asset to the competition and have what is required to be sustainable and potentially successful in Super League. Cons - not good for Broadcast Rights and Sponsors as no guarantee of exactly who and where the clubs in the competition will be from year to year. Competition and Clubs will have difficult with long term planning. Promoted Clubs have only 3-4 month notice to be prepared. Also a lot of work and money going into meeting criteria then can be Relegated in the next year. 3. Licensing. License Length determined by Criteria. If a club exceeds criteria it is granted a 10 year license. if a club meets Criteria they are granted a 5 year license. Clubs that Struggle to meet criteria are granted a year to year License and failure to meet criteria after a set time means relegation. Pros - Clubs can plan long term regarding signing players, developing juniors, improve facilities, attracting sponsors. Competition has certainty of who will be participating to attract TV rights bidders and competition sponsors. Merged semi pro Clubs who meet criteria can follow Catalan example such as Cumbrian Lakers or Aude Cathars and be granted long term licenses to get established & justify long term investment in facilities. Cons - Super League could be perceived as a closed shop or entry just to difficult for lower level clubs with Super League ambitions. Lower half of the competition is seen as stagnant as P & R is a tradition that some UK people know and want. 4. Regional licensing & Promotion/Relegation. All clubs must meet set Licensing Criteria. P & R would only be between clubs from the same Country/Region. Pros - long term stability for TV rights, Sponsors, planing and marketing. Regions/Countries retain a set level of representation and keep the tradition of P & R. Could help develop semi pro tiers of the sport in each respective country as a pathway to Super League. UK Championship sides gain promotion and replace UK Super League clubs. French elite sides like Avignon or a regional side like Aude Cathars could replace Catalan or Toulouse if relegated. If Toronto are Relegated Ottawa, New York or Jacksonville from North America could take there place. Cons - How P & R works would become complicated. Some work needs to be done to raise standard of French Elite to be Equal the level of UK Championship. North American domestic game needs a ton of work to improve standards to be a pathway to Super League. UK Championship Sides who meet Super League are may not be guaranteed of an opportunity for promotion on a yearly basis . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Lofter Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I think there's a P/R format in some South American soccer leagues that allows relegation but not based on a single seasons bad form. If a team consistently under performs then they become jeopardised and there's a play-off against a high functioning team from the lower league....again,calculated on several years of consistent good performance. No one gets booted for one bad season...they have to be persistently unsuccessful to be considered for the guillotine. Under this system, only long term wounded clubs get relegated and only consistently high achieving teams are eligible to replace them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluded pom? Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 What happens in Country RL in Australia? Do they have P & R? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Ant said: We had no P&R for 70 years in RL and supposedly they were the greatest period for RL in the UK...then P&R was introduced and it spelled disaster to many clubs (my own included, a bad season led to 30 years of mediocrity and near extinction). Sorry but this is a disingenuous starting point - we didn't have P&R during that era but we also didn't split the game between those inside and those outside. Everyone was in one big league. Which as far as I know is not anybody's current proposal. The options are to either use licencing and cut off the dreams of many of the game's existing clubs (or bring their dreams into a harsh meeting with reality if you prefer). Or retain the dreams but have uncertainty that top flight clubs will struggle with. Given the pain that the licencing years brought to many clubs who found themselves on the wrong side of the divide by little more than poor timing of when they were good enough I'm happy to stick with P&R. If we can get the championship strong enough so that it's not such a nightmare-ish meltdown scenario to be relegated then that would be perfect. We also have to remember our core principles here - Rugby League is a sport and one of our USPs is authenticity. Sometimes we veer too close to manufacturing systems and clubs and results to suit clear, and worthy, strategic aims. Balancing credibility with those aims is difficult but it's all too easy to ignore it, which was what drove much of the post-1995 bloodbath in the lower leagues where we a haemoraged fans that we've never really recovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Chrispmartha said: Maybe Leigh aren't/weren't better prepared to replace a SL club but that's not an argument against it. If Leigh had say a chance to reapply to SL in 5 years time that gives them plenty of incentive to drive their business and club forward to achieve that but achieve it on a solid basis rather than gambling on winning a championship Grand final and having to scrabble a squad together to hopefully avoid the drop again After 5 years of licencing Leigh's attendances would be back down to 1,300/400 , most sponsors would be saying " come and see us when you get the ' nod ' and we'll look at it ? " , We still wouldn't be producing any players So how would we be viewed as a potential replacement ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Chrispmartha said: Oh I don't think licensing is some kind of holy grail that will be sunlit uplands for the sport for ever more, there are no doubt downsides. regarding you last point, some clubs find it difficult to build a SL club inside SL at the moment as well Do you honestly believe those clubs would build any better under licencing or franchises ? From my point of view , would I want the club I support ( Leigh ) locked into a licenced SL ? , No I wouldn't , I am under no illusions ,Leigh would most likely be a bottom half of SL club , so the prospect of paying to watch ' dead rubber ' games against the other bottom half dwellers season after season doesn't fill me with enthusiasm , I'd end up just paying to watch us play the big clubs in the hope of taking a big scalp , but having to avoid being relegated would spur me on to support the team until that safety was achieved , not perfect ,but that's the way it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwis 13 6 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 hour ago, deluded pom? said: What happens in Country RL in Australia? Do they have P & R? Dont know about Australian Country RL but in NZ Rugby League the Auckland Fox memorial club competition which has a semi pro element to it has P & R. NZRL Provincial Premiership which is an end of season regional representative competition also has P & R play off with next best region from the grade below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I realise this is off topic slightly but let’s say theoretically tomorrow SL announce that next year its going to be a 14 league structure with Toronto automatically coming up and the playoffs shifting from 1-5 to 2-6 in the championship, no relegation from SL, who would lose out or complain? it means next year we can scrap loop fixtures, the bottom SL clubs can plan accordingly, the championship sides in the playoffs have a better chance than if they faced Toronto! what are the downsides? You can say some integrity has gone but by this time next year that will be forgotten about and we have a far better structure to the league and it means if Relegation is kept its a lot fairer system than having a loo sided fixture list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: Do you honestly believe those clubs would build any better under licencing or franchises ? From my point of view , would I want the club I support ( Leigh ) locked into a licenced SL ? , No I wouldn't , I am under no illusions ,Leigh would most likely be a bottom half of SL club , so the prospect of paying to watch ' dead rubber ' games against the other bottom half dwellers season after season doesn't fill me with enthusiasm , I'd end up just paying to watch us play the big clubs in the hope of taking a big scalp , but having to avoid being relegated would spur me on to support the team until that safety was achieved , not perfect ,but that's the way it is Promotion to SL and trying to get back in has nearly sent your club out of business. its all about stability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: Promotion to SL and trying to get back in has nearly sent your club out of business. its all about stability I would suggest that it doesn't help that there is an annual threat - perceived or otherwise - to get yourselves on the right side of the drawbridge before it comes up (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweaty craiq Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 hours ago, scotchy1 said: There are minority of clubs, very very few, who are running themselves in to the ground repeatedly to try and be something they arent. Let's take club x and remove fan loyalties. They run at 2.5-3k in the championship, 6k in SL but keep going pop. Trying to be an SL club is killing them. Removing that aim may very well be the best thing for them. Let the readjust and recalibrate their aim and become a really really good championship club. That's better than killing themselves being an SL club. It has value Lets work on a process of elimination to find these clubs. Bradford, Leigh, Oldham, Halifax, Workington, Widnes have appeared in SL from outside the current SL. Worky and Oldham are not in the championship. Halifax cant get 2500, and Bradford Leigh and Widnes all get over 3k. Take Bradford in their glory days so they get far greater than 6k gates in SL and you are left with Leigh or Widnes. Leigh haven't gone pop for a long time - 2002 ish they went into a cva, was London 2005? - but I suppose Widnes have done it twice in 2006/7 and 2019. What is shocking is that both these clubs drew greater than established clubs Wakey, Salford, London and Huddersfield at the gate. PS Leigh didn't lose money in either SL season and IF a few things bounced better would be building a pretty competitive club today, but that's sport and why we love it. Excluding Bradford, Leigh and Widnes from SL will not benefit any of them, in the same way that Leeds getting relegated wont benefit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 47 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: Promotion to SL and trying to get back in has nearly sent your club out of business. its all about stability Stability is boring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Pigeon Lofter said: I think there's a P/R format in some South American soccer leagues that allows relegation but not based on a single seasons bad form. If a team consistently under performs then they become jeopardised and there's a play-off against a high functioning team from the lower league....again,calculated on several years of consistent good performance. No one gets booted for one bad season...they have to be persistently unsuccessful to be considered for the guillotine. Under this system, only long term wounded clubs get relegated and only consistently high achieving teams are eligible to replace them. It’s based on average points per game over a pre-determined period (IIRC 3 years). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: It’s based on average points per game over a pre-determined period (IIRC 3 years). But again , that has its flaws , a clubs struggles bringing in juniors to build a team , then finally start to improve , then get relegated after finishing 3/4th off bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I'm baffled by Leigh fans so against licensing. They failed to maintain a position in SL under P&R, but would be front runners under licensing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ant said: I'm baffled by Leigh fans so against licensing. They failed to maintain a position in SL under P&R, but would be front runners under licensing No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, Ant said: I'm baffled by Leigh fans so against licensing. They failed to maintain a position in SL under P&R, but would be front runners under licensing Its probably as they understand the effect of licensing on a fairly large sized lower league club more than most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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