sweaty craiq Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 The farce of when the stronger teams play the weaker teams and the players rested for such games, was evened out by the middle 8's - don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moove Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronicler of Chiswick Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Oh God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said: Oh God! HKR or even Leeds could be relegated on the back of Saints resting players against London on 2 occasions , is that really fair ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: HKR or even Leeds could be relegated on the back of Saints resting players against London on 2 occasions , is that really fair ? Yeah, it is. Hull KR or Leeds getting relegated isn’t a direct result of London getting four points off Saints, it’s because over the weekly rounds of Super League, Hull KR/Leeds/Another didn’t accumulate enough points to stay in the competition themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluded pom? Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: HKR or even Leeds could be relegated on the back of Saints resting players against London on 2 occasions , is that really fair ? Sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 31 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said: The farce of when the stronger teams play the weaker teams and the players rested for such games, was evened out by the middle 8's - don't you think? I think it's cobblers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: Yeah, it is. Hull KR or Leeds getting relegated isn’t a direct result of London getting four points off Saints, it’s because over the weekly rounds of Super League, Hull KR/Leeds/Another didn’t accumulate enough points to stay in the competition themselves. Absolutely. Speaking as a Leeds fan our current predicament is entirely of our own making and we should never be reliant on other results going our way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: Yeah, it is. Hull KR or Leeds getting relegated isn’t a direct result of London getting four points off Saints, it’s because over the weekly rounds of Super League, Hull KR/Leeds/Another didn’t accumulate enough points to stay in the competition themselves. I really don't understand this logic. If we agree that Saints sent two weakened teams to London (certainly this weekend was weakened, the game earlier in the season is more debatable) then the following is true. 2 of the 8 wins that London have accumulated have come from wins against St Helens who are League leaders but sent under strength teams to London... this is a full quarter of the wins/points that London have to their name. I am happy for people to say that Saints can do what they like and send whichever squad they choose... but you cannot argue that it hasn't impacted the bottom of the table points and therefore the relegation battle. If London stay up by 2 or 4 points then these games will have had a massive impact. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I really don't understand this logic. If we agree that Saints sent two weakened teams to London (certainly this weekend was weakened, the game earlier in the season is more debatable) then the following is true. 2 of the 8 wins that London have accumulated have come from wins against St Helens who are League leaders but sent under strength teams to London... this is a full quarter of the wins/points that London have to their name. I am happy for people to say that Saints can do what they like and send whichever squad they choose... but you cannot argue that it hasn't impacted the bottom of the table points and therefore the relegation battle. If London stay up by 2 or 4 points then these games will have had a massive impact. Sending weakened teams should not be dismissed as an issue. It is a tough one to police, but what is to stop, say a gentleman's agreement to effectively give wins and fix sport events? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moove Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Anyone would think Saints threw the game yesterday. There were two points in it after an hour in what was a competitive game (the fact that Saints can field a second team which is competitive with the bottom half of the table should perhaps be more concerning re the overall quality of SL). Maybe if the likes of Leeds had shown the same effort and desire that London have this year then they might have stood a better chance of beating Saints earlier in the season (and anyone else for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dave T said: Sending weakened teams should not be dismissed as an issue. It is a tough one to police, but what is to stop, say a gentleman's agreement to effectively give wins and fix sport events? I think it is an issue and I mentioned on the London Saints match thread that the teams battling London in the relegation battle are entitled to feel aggrieved about the Saints selection this week. The consensus of opinion on that thread is that it is not an issue. I am surprised people think this way. As I say, I am happy for people to argue that Saints can do what they want but you can't argue it hasn't had an effect on the relegation battle because it clearly has. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 hour ago, GUBRATS said: HKR or even Leeds could be relegated on the back of Saints resting players against London on 2 occasions , is that really fair ? In contrast Leeds play at home to a Hull team who haven't won at Headingley for 12 years the week before a semi-final, who in all likelyhood given the backbone shown in other games this year if they had shouted boo at them would have run all the way back to Hull and they still can't get a win. So in answer to your question it evens itself out over the season. The reason teams are at the bottom is down to their own failings, nothing more, nothing less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moove Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: I think it is an issue and I mentioned on the London Saints match thread that the teams battling London in the relegation battle are entitled to feel aggrieved about the Saints selection this week. The consensus of opinion on that thread is that it is not an issue. I am surprised people think this way. As I say, I am happy for people to argue that Saints can do what they want but you can't argue it hasn't had an effect on the relegation battle because it clearly has. I'm interested in what people see as the solution for this perceived issue. The whole league set up is inherently unfair. Fixture lists aren't equal, salary spends are different, matches are played in different weathers, players get injured, players are in and out of form, teams have off days. London playing on a plastic pitch means Saints are always going to rest Lomax and Makinson because of prior injuries (two players amongst the best in their respective positions) as they did when Widnes were in SL. Do we abolish the registration of a 30-man squad (or whatever size it is)? Do we force teams to list players of each position in priority order with coaches forced to pick from the top down unless injured? How many players is it acceptable for a team to rest at once? Should Saints be forced to play a fit Roby every game even though resting him occasionally will likely help prolong his career? Should youngsters such as Eaves, Hazzard, Welsby and Simm only be allowed to play first-grade if Saints have sufficient injuries? And only allow one to play at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Is the OP trolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Moove said: I'm interested in what people see as the solution for this perceived issue. The whole league set up is inherently unfair. Fixture lists aren't equal, salary spends are different, matches are played in different weathers, players get injured, players are in and out of form, teams have off days. London playing on a plastic pitch means Saints are always going to rest Lomax and Makinson because of prior injuries (two players amongst the best in their respective positions) as they did when Widnes were in SL. Do we abolish the registration of a 30-man squad (or whatever size it is)? Do we force teams to list players of each position in priority order with coaches forced to pick from the top down unless injured? How many players is it acceptable for a team to rest at once? Should Saints be forced to play a fit Roby every game even though resting him occasionally will likely help prolong his career? Should youngsters such as Eaves, Hazzard, Welsby and Simm only be allowed to play first-grade if Saints have sufficient injuries? And only allow one to play at a time? Absolutely, its the failure of the rest of the teams in the league to give saints such a large cushion at the top to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Moove said: I'm interested in what people see as the solution for this perceived issue. The whole league set up is inherently unfair. Fixture lists aren't equal, salary spends are different, matches are played in different weathers, players get injured, players are in and out of form, teams have off days. London playing on a plastic pitch means Saints are always going to rest Lomax and Makinson because of prior injuries (two players amongst the best in their respective positions) as they did when Widnes were in SL. Do we abolish the registration of a 30-man squad (or whatever size it is)? Do we force teams to list players of each position in priority order with coaches forced to pick from the top down unless injured? How many players is it acceptable for a team to rest at once? Should Saints be forced to play a fit Roby every game even though resting him occasionally will likely help prolong his career? Should youngsters such as Eaves, Hazzard, Welsby and Simm only be allowed to play first-grade if Saints have sufficient injuries? And only allow one to play at a time? There are RFL rules around putting out a full strength team. Making 9 changes from your previous game, which lead to a hammering by the team bottom of the table should be looked into for the integrity of the comp. Next week's team selection needs to be considered. I suggest a 20 point deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Tommygilf said: Absolutely, its the failure of the rest of the teams in the league to give saints such a large cushion at the top to do this. That doesn't allow Saints to gift points in games. Selections like this leave the game wide open to corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, Moove said: I'm interested in what people see as the solution for this perceived issue. The whole league set up is inherently unfair. Fixture lists aren't equal, salary spends are different, matches are played in different weathers, players get injured, players are in and out of form, teams have off days. London playing on a plastic pitch means Saints are always going to rest Lomax and Makinson because of prior injuries (two players amongst the best in their respective positions) as they did when Widnes were in SL. Do we abolish the registration of a 30-man squad (or whatever size it is)? Do we force teams to list players of each position in priority order with coaches forced to pick from the top down unless injured? How many players is it acceptable for a team to rest at once? Should Saints be forced to play a fit Roby every game even though resting him occasionally will likely help prolong his career? Should youngsters such as Eaves, Hazzard, Welsby and Simm only be allowed to play first-grade if Saints have sufficient injuries? And only allow one to play at a time? With all of your questions here, I think you may have misinterpreted my point. As I have said a few times, I am happy with people arguing that Saints are within their rights to field whatever squad they choose... it is up to others to decide if this brings the game into disrepute or not, I am making no judgement. The point I was making is that of course it has had an effect on the outcome of the season. The top team fielding a weakened side and losing to the bottom team who are involved in an intense relegation battle is going to effect the season and to argue that it hasn't is illogical. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dave T said: That doesn't allow Saints to gift points in games. Selections like this leave the game wide open to corruption. I suppose thats a fair point. Especially as its been twice in the same circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I'm slightly annoyed that Saints sent the weakened team yesterday. But I imagine HKR fans will be absolutely fuming if they do the same the week before the CC final (should they get there...) when they play Leeds at Headingley as they'll have been double 'victims' of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moove Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: I suppose thats a fair point. Especially as its been twice in the same circumstances Well, except in neither game were the points 'gifted'. The first was won by a golden point, the second by a bigger margin but which blew out in the last 10 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moove Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, M j M said: I'm slightly annoyed that Saints sent the weakened team yesterday. But I imagine HKR fans will be absolutely fuming if they do the same the week before the CC final (should they get there...) when they play Leeds at Headingley as they'll have been double 'victims' of it. Hull KR only play Saints twice this season so they get an advantage that way. London and Leeds play Saints three times. The first time Saints played Hull KR we didn't have a full strength team either, fairly similar to the first London game actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 56 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I really don't understand this logic. If we agree that Saints sent two weakened teams to London (certainly this weekend was weakened, the game earlier in the season is more debatable) then the following is true. 2 of the 8 wins that London have accumulated have come from wins against St Helens who are League leaders but sent under strength teams to London... this is a full quarter of the wins/points that London have to their name. I am happy for people to say that Saints can do what they like and send whichever squad they choose... but you cannot argue that it hasn't impacted the bottom of the table points and therefore the relegation battle. If London stay up by 2 or 4 points then these games will have had a massive impact. Win enough games and you won’t have to worry about the results of other teams. It’s really that simple. If Hull KR/Leeds etc go down, it’s because of their own failings over the course of a season and not because of other results. Yeah, Saints have played a weakened team but then again there’s instances where injuries make teams far weaker than they’d already be, so there’s always some imbalance somewhere in the game each week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moove Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, Dunbar said: With all of your questions here, I think you may have misinterpreted my point. As I have said a few times, I am happy with people arguing that Saints are within their rights to field whatever squad they choose... it is up to others to decide if this brings the game into disrepute or not, I am making no judgement. The point I was making is that of course it has had an effect on the outcome of the season. The top team fielding a weakened side and losing to the bottom team who are involved in an intense relegation battle is going to effect the season and to argue that it hasn't is illogical. Yep that's fair enough and I won't argue that it won't have any impact. Although I stand by my view that other factors have an equal (if not greater) impact on the outcome on the table at the end of the season. The questions I posed still stand for those who believe it is bringing the game into disrepute. FWIW the regulations are not particularly clear given that they recognise anyone with a squad number as being part of the 'first team'. Applying the regulations to the letter would mean every team is guilty if they've ever rested any fit player, there are no varying degrees based on whether it's six or nine players rested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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