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SL needs to bring back the middle 8's


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34 minutes ago, Damien said:

Playing weakened teams in certain matches has happened for as long as I can remember. Its hardly a new thing and I'm sure all clubs have done it at some point.

Squad rotation is a different thing to what happened yesterday. That wasnt normal and we dont see it regularly.

The other loss v London, Saints had a stronger team.

There are rules for this kind of thing and it has always been controversial.

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Just now, Dave T said:

Squad rotation is a different thing to what happened yesterday. That wasnt normal and we dont see it regularly.

The other loss v London, Saints had a stronger team.

There are rules for this kind of thing and it has always been controversial.

It's happened plenty of times around Cup matches and towards the end of the regular games before the play offs. I see little difference.

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Just now, Damien said:

It's happened plenty of times around Cup matches and towards the end of the regular games before the play offs. I see little difference.

The scale of this selection was extreme and led to the bottom team beating the tip team by 20 points.

It is as close to throwing a game as you can get.

Other sports also frown on it and actually dish out punishments. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/14166038

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/02/22/efl-introduce-new-rules-stop-teams-playing-weakened-sides/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/saints-could-face-action-over-weak-team-hvj5t2r7s

 

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3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, happy with all of that and the Operational Rules of the RFL are very vague.

The only thing I have argued in this whole conversation is that Saints team selection effected the result... for me that is self evident.

Well if you're happy with your interpretation of the situation, why are you pounding our ears with your repetitive posts.

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If you turn this on its head it makes more sense why the rule is in place.

Lets say it is the last round of the season and the top of the table looked like this.

St.Helens 44pts

Warrington 44pts

Hull 42pts

Wigan 36pts

Catalan 32pts

Saints and Warrington are both in with a chance of winning the league if one wins and the other slips up.

In the last round Wigan play Warrington, Wigan are guaranteed 4th spot.

Hull could overtake Warrington if they win and Warrington lose and their points difference is better than Warrington's

Saints have to put a strong team.

Warrington have to put out a strong team.

Hull have to put out a strong team

Wigan can't be overtaken and can't drop lower, they can put out any team, they have one eye on the play-offs.

WIgan put out a second string side against Warrington, Warrington win easily and improve their points difference so it is better than Saints.

Saints win, but finish up in second place on points difference due to Warrington's easy win.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Faithful1865 said:

Well if you're happy with your interpretation of the situation, why are you pounding our ears with your repetitive posts.

I have to keep going till everyone agrees with me.

It is an internet forum after all.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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5 minutes ago, Padge said:

If you turn this on its head it makes more sense why the rule is in place.

Lets say it is the last round of the season and the top of the table looked like this.

St.Helens 44pts

Warrington 44pts

Hull 42pts

Wigan 36pts

Catalan 32pts

Saints and Warrington are both in with a chance of winning the league if one wins and the other slips up.

In the last round Wigan play Warrington, Wigan are guaranteed 4th spot.

Hull could overtake Warrington if they win and Warrington lose and their points difference is better than Warrington's

Saints have to put a strong team.

Warrington have to put out a strong team.

Hull have to put out a strong team

Wigan can't be overtaken and can't drop lower, they can put out any team, they have one eye on the play-offs.

WIgan put out a second string side against Warrington, Warrington win easily and improve their points difference so it is better than Saints.

Saints win, but finish up in second place on points difference due to Warrington's easy win.

 

 

 

I'm sure the Saints fans would feel exactly the same :kolobok_biggrin:

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Just now, Saint 1 said:

Was it throwing a game when we rested 8 vs Catalan earlier in the season? The same people complaining now would have been complaining then, except we won by 30. 

We were 2 points down with 20 minutes to go, ridiculous to claim that is close to throwing a game.

The make up of those teams were quite different.

There was controversy in advance, claims that Saints were happy to lose this game, and they did, by 20 against the bottom of the league. That isnt 'normal'.

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Bradford & Halifax both fielded under strength teams in the 1895 cup after their Quarter Final appearance. Not much of an outcry then?

Saints should be able to pick whatever team they like which benefits them. Other teams need to worry about their own performances & games

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10 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

The controversy in advance was drummed up by bitter opposition fans. We were 2 points down with 20 minutes left, the idea that Saints were happy to turn up and let London win is laughable, as is the idea that James Roby should be forced to play 35 games per year to keep opposition fans happy.

Wigan lost to London earlier in the year too. How dare they throw the game into disrepute like that.

Storm in a teacup and with the SL owners in charge this won’t change anyway.  

I wouldn’t be surprised if Hull field a team full of reserves next week after the CC semi.

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17 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

the idea that Saints were happy to turn up and let London win is laughable

Has anybody suggested that?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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22 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

The controversy in advance was drummed up by bitter opposition fans. We were 2 points down with 20 minutes left, the idea that Saints were happy to turn up and let London win is laughable, as is the idea that James Roby should be forced to play 35 games per year to keep opposition fans happy.

Wigan lost to London earlier in the year too. How dare they throw the game into disrepute like that.

That may be true that opposition fans picked up on it, but so did the media.

The fact it was controversial in advance, and then Saints, by far the best team in the league lost by 20 to bottom of the table shows that the selections were an issue.

You may not think it is an issue, that's fine, but let's not suggest it was just a normal thing. 

Wigan were playing terribly when they lost to London, there is no point using silly comparisons with them.

 

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That may be true that opposition fans picked up on it, but so did the media.

The fact it was controversial in advance, and then Saints, by far the best team in the league lost by 20 to bottom of the table shows that the selections were an issue.

You may not think it is an issue, that's fine, but let's not suggest it was just a normal thing. 

Wigan were playing terribly when they lost to London, there is no point using silly comparisons with them.

 

It’s also not that normal that a team is that comfortable at the top they can afford a loss and still win all the trophies on offer

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I want more teams of a similar standard, except for those from Lancashire who play in a shade of red. They should start on minus 6 points every season.

Teams who play in pink or green should start on plus 4 points.

Teams who have a slope of a pitch should start on minus 5 points.

Teams with anyone called Matty or Tommy should be relegated.

Learn to listen without distortion and learn to look without imagination.

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44 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It’s also not that normal that a team is that comfortable at the top they can afford a loss and still win all the trophies on offer

Indeed. But games arent dead rubbers, London had plenty to play for.

I suspect people are far more forgiving about this because London benefited, whereas had this been Leeds or Wigan benefiting there would have been a little more fuss. I'm not disappointed that London benefited.

But, I've said my piece, I think we should adhere to our previous rules, and those that other sports apply and hand out a punishment to prevent this kind of thing.

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28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed. But games arent dead rubbers, London had plenty to play for.

I suspect people are far more forgiving about this because London benefited, whereas had this been Leeds or Wigan benefiting there would have been a little more fuss. I'm not disappointed that London benefited.

But, I've said my piece, I think we should adhere to our previous rules, and those that other sports apply and hand out a punishment to prevent this kind of thing.

When we used to enforce this, and that is going back a long time, clubs got around it by claiming players were injured, club doctors would even certify that player A,B C etc. had some minor injury that needed rest.

The whole thing became a farce, I think that was what prompted the squad system where you name a first team squad of players and play any from that squad.

In my earlier scenario Saints supporters would be furious if Wigan stitched them up like that, Wigan supporters would find it hilarious, Warrington supporters would be more than pleased and the RFL would be clueless about what to do even though the integrity of the competition would be being brought into doubt.

Its a difficult one to enforce and police.

A solution may be that clubs name a first team squad of say 26 players (2 on field teams*) and must pick from those 26 for every game. If they want to play someone outside of the 26 then a cash equivalent of the most expensive player (as per his contract) not playing is paid to the RFL.

Teams effectively have to buy permission to put out a none first team player.

*The number could be anything, whatever is agreed.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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Saints have earned the right to put out a weakened team and only need to look after number one. However, I would suggest that they wouldn’t have done it were the champions decided by the league table, or at the very least a much bigger prize than the hub cap for finishing top of the pile. 

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3 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Saints have earned the right to put out a weakened team and only need to look after number one. However, I would suggest that they wouldn’t have done it were the champions decided by the league table, or at the very least a much bigger prize than the hub cap for finishing top of the pile. 

It would have made no difference, Saints would still need the same points from their remaining games to win the league, no matter what it was worth. The position they are in means that nobody in their right mind would back against them managing that, even if they threw another game.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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Just now, Padge said:

It would have made no difference, Saints would still need the same points from their remaining games to win the league, no matter what it was worth. The position they are in means that nobody in their right mind would back against them managing that, even if they threw another game.

I’m sure they wouldn’t have made quite so many changes if there had been a serious bounty on top spot. 

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Just now, Leyther_Matt said:

I’m sure they wouldn’t have made quite so many changes if there had been a serious bounty on top spot. 

Well my money say's they would, they are safely clear and have one eye on the cup next week.

 

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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14 hours ago, Dunbar said:

As I say, I want London to stay up as they are my local team and favourite team in Super League.

I'm surprised more people don't seem to care but that's fine... what I can't understand is those that can't even see the link between selecting an under-strength team and getting beaten.

I think you are being disingenuous to what people can see and what they cannot give a monkeys about. I cant imagine that anyone cant see the link, they simply dont worry about it as it is exactly what happens all the time, and maybe what happens in 2 weeks time with saints v wakefield (who knows). 
Saints already have a few injuries, they may get a few more niggles on the weekend and then they rest them to make sure they are good going into the pointy end of the season.. it is what you do and it is what happens and everyone in the league knows that.

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