RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 14 hours ago, Dave T said: Does it? I'm not convinced that is true. yes... in football they put out teams to match the opposition at busy periods of the year, they sometimes get it wrong. I have seen it in Football.. and only this week they have said they are resting certain payers for the Ireland v England test match in the run up to the ashes.. Rugby Union you see "rotation" in the autumn internationals with a weaker side being put out against the percieved weaker opposition, you see changes in the 6 nations when teams play Italy and I am sure you will see it at club level too. I will have to guess at some of the other sports but yes it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, RP London said: I think you are being disingenuous to what people can see and what they cannot give a monkeys about. I cant imagine that anyone cant see the link, they simply dont worry about it as it is exactly what happens all the time, and maybe what happens in 2 weeks time with saints v wakefield (who knows). Saints already have a few injuries, they may get a few more niggles on the weekend and then they rest them to make sure they are good going into the pointy end of the season.. it is what you do and it is what happens and everyone in the league knows that. Ok, fair enough... as has been pointed out already I have stated my case enough (probably too much) so I will bow to the weight of opinion. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 44 minutes ago, RP London said: yes... in football they put out teams to match the opposition at busy periods of the year, they sometimes get it wrong. I have seen it in Football.. and only this week they have said they are resting certain payers for the Ireland v England test match in the run up to the ashes.. Rugby Union you see "rotation" in the autumn internationals with a weaker side being put out against the percieved weaker opposition, you see changes in the 6 nations when teams play Italy and I am sure you will see it at club level too. I will have to guess at some of the other sports but yes it happens. Oh come on RP. Autumn internationals are friendlies. Internationals always mess about with team selections as they are standalone where you only affect yourself. We played France at Leigh without plenty first graders. Cup is fine for the same reason, you only punish yourself. In the 6N nd WCs there is a specific squad for squad rotation for these short tournaments. We are talking about wholesale testing of players in League comps. Something which affects others, there are rules against and sports actually punish. The fact that punishments are dished out shows that it isnt just an accepted part of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, Dave T said: Oh come on RP. Autumn internationals are friendlies. Internationals always mess about with team selections as they are standalone where you only affect yourself. We played France at Leigh without plenty first graders. Cup is fine for the same reason, you only punish yourself. We are talking about wholesale testing of players in League comps. Something which affects others, there are rules against and sports actually punish. The fact that punishments are dished out shows that it isnt just an accepted part of life. Punishments are dished out if you cannot justify what you are doing.. injuries happen, this week its announced Lachlan Coote is out for this week too.. so some of them are injuries, some of them will be "niggles" not worth risking etc.. I've used the international examples because off the top of my head (without following the league sports heavily) that is what I know.. to go with cricket though the ECB tell teams to rest their best players at times through the season.. as a Yorkshireman I know that the Yorkshire you face in week 1 of the season could be very different to the Yorkshire you face down the line. In RU the league carries on playing throughout the autumn internationals (and 6 nations??) so agan you can face very different teams from one month to the next.. that is without any sort of rotation for "niggles" which I am sure happens but dont know enough about. the point is all teams rotate, they pick the best team to do the job that they think they have, with games the week after to plan as well you do start to think, rest this niggle so that they are ready for the week after.. a first team player at 80% may be better than the academy player at 100% but if that first teamer is at 70% maybe the choice changes. Also lets be fair teams have off days and sometimes a player is training/playing well for his DR club and comes in and has a mare or isnt genuinely good enough but you only know that when they play.. I feel for Hull KR and those at the bottom but it happens everywhere and very often... yes a punishment gets handed down once in a blue moon by the FA etc but it is very very common in football to rotate through the squad and it is uncommon for these to get punished. i agree there are rules against this sort of thing... did Saints break them? I am not sure they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, RP London said: Punishments are dished out if you cannot justify what you are doing.. injuries happen, this week its announced Lachlan Coote is out for this week too.. so some of them are injuries, some of them will be "niggles" not worth risking etc.. I've used the international examples because off the top of my head (without following the league sports heavily) that is what I know.. to go with cricket though the ECB tell teams to rest their best players at times through the season.. as a Yorkshireman I know that the Yorkshire you face in week 1 of the season could be very different to the Yorkshire you face down the line. In RU the league carries on playing throughout the autumn internationals (and 6 nations??) so agan you can face very different teams from one month to the next.. that is without any sort of rotation for "niggles" which I am sure happens but dont know enough about. the point is all teams rotate, they pick the best team to do the job that they think they have, with games the week after to plan as well you do start to think, rest this niggle so that they are ready for the week after.. a first team player at 80% may be better than the academy player at 100% but if that first teamer is at 70% maybe the choice changes. Also lets be fair teams have off days and sometimes a player is training/playing well for his DR club and comes in and has a mare or isnt genuinely good enough but you only know that when they play.. I feel for Hull KR and those at the bottom but it happens everywhere and very often... yes a punishment gets handed down once in a blue moon by the FA etc but it is very very common in football to rotate through the squad and it is uncommon for these to get punished. Again, we need to differentiate between squad rotation and fielding a weakened team . We all know what happened the other day, and it isnt common, or normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dave T said: Again, we need to differentiate between squad rotation and fielding a weakened team . We all know what happened the other day, and it isnt common, or normal. thats said with no knowledge of the full fitness of any of the players involved. I am giving the benefit of the doubt to holbrook, saints and their medical staff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, Dave T said: Again, we need to differentiate between squad rotation and fielding a weakened team . We all know what happened the other day, and it isnt common, or normal. Who do you want to adjudicate this and who is qualified enough to tell a coach who they can and can’t pick each week? And when do you want clubs to blood youngsters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, RP London said: thats said with no knowledge of the full fitness of any of the players involved. I am giving the benefit of the doubt to holbrook, saints and their medical staff.. There is no need to. It is clear what they have done. You can be ok with that. Personally I'm not, but thats just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: Who do you want to adjudicate this and who is qualified enough to tell a coach who they can and can’t pick each week? And when do you want clubs to blood youngsters? I have already acknowledged that it may be difficult to police. But nobody can claim with a straight face that that was a perfectly normal selection policy that we see all the time. Other sports punish it, and we have in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Dave T said: There is no need to. It is clear what they have done. You can be ok with that. Personally I'm not, but thats just me. thats my point it is not clear at all.. without knowing the ins and outs you cannot possible judge whether any of them were fit enough to play.. 9 dropped out.. 4 can be easily explained with past history and injury reports we know 2 are props who often carry niggles so that would be no surprise 3 are a bit more questionable but again without knowing if Fages, Percival or Naqaima are 100% i couldnt say they were not... I would question "resting" both centres as their depth there is not great.. but these are the 3 i have more questions about, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, RP London said: thats my point it is not clear at all.. without knowing the ins and outs you cannot possible judge whether any of them were fit enough to play.. 9 dropped out.. 4 can be easily explained with past history and injury reports we know 2 are props who often carry niggles so that would be no surprise 3 are a bit more questionable but again without knowing if Fages, Percival or Naqaima are 100% i couldnt say they were not... I would question "resting" both centres as their depth there is not great.. but these are the 3 i have more questions about, EFL have agreed rules (not sure if it is for every comp or what), 5 of your starting outfield players must have played in the previous game or the subsequent game. This translates as Saints needing 6 players in the starting 13 from the previous game (or this weekend). I think they had 4. That should be enough to trigger a review. Where the difficulty comes in is that pretty much all RL players will be carrying injuries at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dave T said: EFL have agreed rules (not sure if it is for every comp or what), 5 of your starting outfield players must have played in the previous game or the subsequent game. This translates as Saints needing 6 players in the starting 13 from the previous game (or this weekend). I think they had 4. That should be enough to trigger a review. Where the difficulty comes in is that pretty much all RL players will be carrying injuries at all times. You cant equate football to RL in pure numbers and starting teams as a bench works differently.. in RL your bench is used up in football its 3 from 7 (i think its 7 now, maybe 5?) so you can hide players on it hence they have the starting team rule.. 9 out of 17 were stood down.. so thats 8 who played the week before... thats the same proportion as the EFL rule.. (rounding the half down) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, Dave T said: I have already acknowledged that it may be difficult to police. But nobody can claim with a straight face that that was a perfectly normal selection policy that we see all the time. Other sports punish it, and we have in the past. We do see changes in the lead up to the Cup Semi’s and Final, it’s quite common. Would Saints have made 9 changes if Coote, Fages and Roby were deemed fit? Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, RP London said: You cant equate football to RL in pure numbers and starting teams as a bench works differently.. in RL your bench is used up in football its 3 from 7 (i think its 7 now, maybe 5?) so you can hide players on it hence they have the starting team rule.. 9 out of 17 were stood down.. so thats 8 who played the week before... thats the same proportion as the EFL rule.. (rounding the half down) You can certainly use that as a starting point to trigger an investigation. 9 changes from the starting 13 is wholesale changes. Edit. Changes that led to a turnaround of a 22pt victory over a top 5 team to a 20 point defeat against bottom of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just now, Dave T said: You can certainly use that as a starting point to trigger an investigation. 9 changes from the starting 13 is wholesale changes. to use the starting line up as the metric disregards the game and the way it is played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just now, RP London said: to use the starting line up as the metric disregards the game and the way it is played. Maybe, they still changed over half the team with 9 from 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just now, Dave T said: Maybe, they still changed over half the team with 9 from 17. and the EFL allow this too... 6 from 11... but thats ok?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, RP London said: and the EFL allow this too... 6 from 11... but thats ok?!? They exclude golkeeper from it. But, you can't combine the 2 to suit, if you are using the number 11, then it is back to starting lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dave T said: They exclude golkeeper from it. But, you can't combine the 2 to suit, if you are using the number 11, then it is back to starting lineup. no because football works its bench differently.. frankly you cannot compare any 2 sport like for like but you brought the EFL rule up. RL will always use its bench and rotate hence you can use that.. Football does not do that, could easily not use any of its bench or have the majority with no intention of being used.. Either way I really dont see the big hoohah about this.. Injuries, niggles etc and a medical team, no issue from the authorities at the moment so why are we getting so worked up about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, RP London said: no because football works its bench differently.. frankly you cannot compare any 2 sport like for like but you brought the EFL rule up. RL will always use its bench and rotate hence you can use that.. Football does not do that, could easily not use any of its bench or have the majority with no intention of being used.. Either way I really dont see the big hoohah about this.. Injuries, niggles etc and a medical team, no issue from the authorities at the moment so why are we getting so worked up about it! happy to agree to disagree mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 As with everything - if it's open to abuse, it will be abused. The fact is Saints did play a weaker sider than in previous weeks and the result of that is clear for all to see. So people sighting possible injuries and/or players needing a rest all of a sudden are actually the ones making this debate roll on - that's not what happened. The current rules are ambiguous enough that Saints will have had no concerns about any possible consequences in doing what they did and rightly so - they haven't actually done anything wrong. The rule needs to be looked at in future would be my takeaway from this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superten Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Thought this tread was about middle 8 s. Shame as I think it would be a good idea of looking at the format again . Although tweak it . Chief Crazy Eagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 13 hours ago, RP London said: yes... in football they put out teams to match the opposition at busy periods of the year, they sometimes get it wrong. I have seen it in Football.. and only this week they have said they are resting certain payers for the Ireland v England test match in the run up to the ashes.. Rugby Union you see "rotation" in the autumn internationals with a weaker side being put out against the percieved weaker opposition, you see changes in the 6 nations when teams play Italy and I am sure you will see it at club level too. I will have to guess at some of the other sports but yes it happens. Do any of those apart from the football have relegation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 12 hours ago, GUBRATS said: Do any of those apart from the football have relegation ? yes, as pointed out in a subsequent post RU does it all over the shop domestically too as do cricket both have relegation.. just trying not to stick in massively long winded posts with example upon example and just using a couple... in this case the international ones to make that point.. the domestic ones cover this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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