Champions League structure for Cup

[Rupert Prince 904]

Dave Woods has a BBC podcast on his radical suggestion to reform the Challenge Cup.

Edited July 22 by Rupert Prince

[Yosser 624]

link;  https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07hk6v2

 

[Man of Kent 4,789]

It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears.

Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, home and away fixtures, top qualifies for QF tickets included in STs.

The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley.

Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to  ditch loop fixtures as would be required.....

Edited July 22 by Man of Kent

[Private Baldrick 1,493]

8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears.

Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, top two qualify for QF, tickets included in STs.

The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley.

Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to  ditch loop fixtures as would be required.....

16 teams in the quarter final?

[GUBRATS 2,239]

8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears.

Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, top two qualify for QF, tickets included in STs.

The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley.

Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to  ditch loop fixtures as would be required.....

So some groups have 1 SL club , others have 2 ?

If top 2 qualify ? ,That's 16 , not the quarters 

[Man of Kent 4,789]

2 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

16 teams in the quarter final?

I meant Round of 16, of course. The equivalent of the present sixth round. Edited.

[GUBRATS 2,239]

4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I meant Round of 16, of course. The equivalent of the present sixth round. Edited.

So 4 games each to lose 8 from 24 ?

Crazy

[Man of Kent 4,789]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So 4 games each to lose 8 from 24 ?

Crazy

Blow me, I’m having a mare with this. Didn’t listen properly first time around. Top club in each of the eight pools qualifies for the QF.

Edited again!! 

Edited July 22 by Man of Kent

[Marauder 790]

Why meddle with the best cup competition in rugby league.

[ojx 1,939]

It would be great of this was an early season tournament for English clubs only, with a traditional Cup final in May. #SummerRugbyForTheLeague

[OriginalMrC 1,026]

I do like the idea of this from the point of view of revenue in the early rounds. The fact is at the moment even if lower league clubs make it through to a later round, and a game against a Superleague club, it's not a big payday (like you get in football) because attendances are so poor. Knowing fixtures in advance would allow clubs to price their season tickets according and promote games. All clubs would be guaranteed extra revenue from fixed number of games early on. Would be a great opportunity for top championship clubs to measure themselves against Superleague opposition and also top amateur teams to measure themselves against league 1 teams. 

On the other hand I do also like the fact the challenge Cup is a knockout competition. Maybe this could be the structure adopted for the 1895 next season and see how it goes? 

[Denton Rovers RLFC 990]

under this format Halifax or any other non SL team wouldn't make the semi finals, it's too loaded IMHO.

aside from the timings between rounds and dates it's fine as it is.

[dixiedean 768]

Dave needs a good telling.

[dixiedean 768]

Also. This means teams in League 1 not in CC at all. Is that what past winners Workington, Oldham(?) and Hunslet want?

[RL does what Sky says 747]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Why meddle with the best cup competition in rugby league.

Agreed ... it should have stayed as it was with just a straight knockout event with all teams involved.

Ok, you might occasionally get a high-scoring win and many teams know they are never going to get to Wembley but it might just be financially good for them to face a SL club.

[Colin James 325]

6 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears.

Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, home and away fixtures, top qualifies for QF tickets included in STs.

The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley.

Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to  ditch loop fixtures as would be required.....

So SL teams drawn in the same group would play each other twice in the cup plus twice in the league, maybe at Magic too and then could meet in the play offs? 

Also Championship has 14 teams, who are they excluding to get 12 entrants from the division? More holes in this plan than a colander.

[leytherz 40]

keep the challenge cup as it is but use the 1895 cup as the blackpool bash to make the championship a fair competition

[saintspete83 381]

Pointless, how does this improve crowds or make it more competitive for the lower SL/champ sides? The only change I would bring is by introducing all of Superleague at the same time  instead of just the bottom 4 and that improves the chances of champs/league 1 getting a decent payday and exposure to a higher quality. 

[Damien 6,860]

Rugby League loves good gimmick and pointless change for the sake of it. No wonder Rimmer isn't against it, we see time and again the RFL going for a quick fix instead of them actually putting in long term steps to improve the game and the Challenge Cup.

[Oliver Clothesoff 2,615]

So the idea is for Super League teams to go from twenty nine rounds at present down to twenty two rounds plus a minimum of four Challenge Cup group games? I just cannot see clubs agreeing to it. 

I know Michael Carter has cited thirteen as being the minimum amount of home games needed to be breaking even/profitable but I take it his calculations are based off Super League opposition and not Championship opposition and I do wonder if this would impact upon any proposal of this nature. 

You have to think of the existing TV contract, we have a deal to show X amount of games over the season, a smaller league season in place and I’m not sure how we meet the threshold of live games, if we can meet it and if Sky want to show the same amount of games as the contract stated. We’d be cutting the season by 27% from 30 Super League games last year down to 22 with this proposed idea. 

 

[scotchy1 4,446]

Interesting start point. Needs a bit more meat on the bones about the how  why and when  but the CC needs changing and good to see commitment to it

[Tommygilf 2,759]

I like the idea of a group stage in the challenge cup, this however, is a poor way of doing it imo.

[Rupert Prince 904]

10 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Agreed ... it should have stayed as it was with just a straight knockout event with all teams involved.

Ok, you might occasionally get a high-scoring win and many teams know they are never going to get to Wembley but it might just be financially good for them to face a SL club.

I sympathise with that and the current Cup should bring in SL clubs at the round of 32.

However... as far as a "pool" system as per the Champions League, or the FIFA WC - I think the principle is sound.  The issue is to what extent the competition is "seeded".  In the FIFA WC for instance teams are set aside for different "pots".

For me the principle should be as much knock out as possible at an appropriate stage, and then an other knock out for the remaining 8. Also give as much opportunity to Championship and L1 teams as possible.   Add in extra games.     Plus if it is an early season competition then later on we focus on the SL (and the Championship) without loop fixtures.

Within the principle, yes for sure there is a lot to discuss about in order to reach a good balance.

[Rupert Prince 904]

As far as profitability is concerned (as per some suggestions).... There would be more games and thus more TV exposure and so more TV money.  Assuming more money is stumped up by BBC or C4 this would give the game a higher profile, possibly more advertising and sponsorship money.   This could overcome any SKY downside (if any) and indeed to what extent does having fewer SL rounds translate to fewer games on TV... or extra games could be played/ transmitted on Monday or more games transmitted on Sat/Sun.

[Oliver Clothesoff 2,615]

56 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

I sympathise with that and the current Cup should bring in SL clubs at the round of 32.

However... as far as a "pool" system as per the Champions League, or the FIFA WC - I think the principle is sound.  The issue is to what extent the competition is "seeded".  In the FIFA WC for instance teams are set aside for different "pots".

For me the principle should be as much knock out as possible at an appropriate stage, and then an other knock out for the remaining 8. Also give as much opportunity to Championship and L1 teams as possible.   Add in extra games.     Plus if it is an early season competition then later on we focus on the SL (and the Championship) without loop fixtures.

Within the principle, yes for sure there is a lot to discuss about in order to reach a good balance.

Top 8 of SL as “Pot 1”, Bottom 4 of SL and 4 highest ranking Championship sides as “Pot 2”, the next best ranked 8 Championship/L1 sides as “Pot 3”?

So based off last season: 

Pot One - St Helens, Wigan, Castleford, Hull FC, Warrington, Wakefield, Catalans, Huddersfield. 

Pot Two - Salford, Hull KR, Leeds, Widnes, London, Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh. 

Pot Three - Batley, Sheffield, Dewsbury, Barrow, Rochdale, Swinton, York, Bradford.

That’s based off Toronto and Toulouse not taking part as per this year’s CC. 

I can’t say I’d be overly enamoured by Pots Two or Three as a fan of a Super League club.