Rupert Prince 1,746 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) Dave Woods has a BBC podcast on his radical suggestion to reform the Challenge Cup. Edited July 22, 2019 by Rupert Prince Link to post Share on other sites
Yosser 645 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 link; https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07hk6v2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Man of Kent 8,060 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears. Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, home and away fixtures, top qualifies for QF tickets included in STs. The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley. Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to ditch loop fixtures as would be required..... Edited July 22, 2019 by Man of Kent 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Private Baldrick 1,933 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears. Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, top two qualify for QF, tickets included in STs. The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley. Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to ditch loop fixtures as would be required..... 16 teams in the quarter final? Link to post Share on other sites
GUBRATS 5,205 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears. Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, top two qualify for QF, tickets included in STs. The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley. Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to ditch loop fixtures as would be required..... So some groups have 1 SL club , others have 2 ? If top 2 qualify ? ,That's 16 , not the quarters Link to post Share on other sites
Man of Kent 8,060 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said: 16 teams in the quarter final? I meant Round of 16, of course. The equivalent of the present sixth round. Edited. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GUBRATS 5,205 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: I meant Round of 16, of course. The equivalent of the present sixth round. Edited. So 4 games each to lose 8 from 24 ? Crazy 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Man of Kent 8,060 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: So 4 games each to lose 8 from 24 ? Crazy Blow me, I’m having a mare with this. Didn’t listen properly first time around. Top club in each of the eight pools qualifies for the QF. Edited again!! Edited July 22, 2019 by Man of Kent Link to post Share on other sites
Marauder 1,026 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 Why meddle with the best cup competition in rugby league. Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits. http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/ Link to post Share on other sites
ojx 2,296 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 It would be great of this was an early season tournament for English clubs only, with a traditional Cup final in May. #SummerRugbyForTheLeague 2 Link to post Share on other sites
OriginalMrC 1,539 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 I do like the idea of this from the point of view of revenue in the early rounds. The fact is at the moment even if lower league clubs make it through to a later round, and a game against a Superleague club, it's not a big payday (like you get in football) because attendances are so poor. Knowing fixtures in advance would allow clubs to price their season tickets according and promote games. All clubs would be guaranteed extra revenue from fixed number of games early on. Would be a great opportunity for top championship clubs to measure themselves against Superleague opposition and also top amateur teams to measure themselves against league 1 teams. On the other hand I do also like the fact the challenge Cup is a knockout competition. Maybe this could be the structure adopted for the 1895 next season and see how it goes? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Denton Rovers RLFC 992 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 under this format Halifax or any other non SL team wouldn't make the semi finals, it's too loaded IMHO. aside from the timings between rounds and dates it's fine as it is. Link to post Share on other sites
dixiedean 839 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 Dave needs a good telling. Link to post Share on other sites
dixiedean 839 Posted July 22, 2019 Report Share Posted July 22, 2019 Also. This means teams in League 1 not in CC at all. Is that what past winners Workington, Oldham(?) and Hunslet want? Link to post Share on other sites
Colin James 403 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Man of Kent said: It’s a suggestion from Coventry Bears. Top 24 pro clubs (12 SL plus 12 Champ) in 8 groups of three, home and away fixtures, top qualifies for QF tickets included in STs. The rest, ie the remaining Champ clubs, League 1 clubs, leading amateurs, Armed Forces etc have a similar 8x3 structure in an 1895 Cup style plate comp with the final at Wembley. Rimmer not against it but acknowledges it would need Super League approval to ditch loop fixtures as would be required..... So SL teams drawn in the same group would play each other twice in the cup plus twice in the league, maybe at Magic too and then could meet in the play offs? Also Championship has 14 teams, who are they excluding to get 12 entrants from the division? More holes in this plan than a colander. Link to post Share on other sites
leytherz 79 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 keep the challenge cup as it is but use the 1895 cup as the blackpool bash to make the championship a fair competition Link to post Share on other sites
saintspete83 390 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Pointless, how does this improve crowds or make it more competitive for the lower SL/champ sides? The only change I would bring is by introducing all of Superleague at the same time instead of just the bottom 4 and that improves the chances of champs/league 1 getting a decent payday and exposure to a higher quality. Link to post Share on other sites
Damien 13,247 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Rugby League loves good gimmick and pointless change for the sake of it. No wonder Rimmer isn't against it, we see time and again the RFL going for a quick fix instead of them actually putting in long term steps to improve the game and the Challenge Cup. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Oliver Clothesoff 2,805 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 So the idea is for Super League teams to go from twenty nine rounds at present down to twenty two rounds plus a minimum of four Challenge Cup group games? I just cannot see clubs agreeing to it. I know Michael Carter has cited thirteen as being the minimum amount of home games needed to be breaking even/profitable but I take it his calculations are based off Super League opposition and not Championship opposition and I do wonder if this would impact upon any proposal of this nature. You have to think of the existing TV contract, we have a deal to show X amount of games over the season, a smaller league season in place and I’m not sure how we meet the threshold of live games, if we can meet it and if Sky want to show the same amount of games as the contract stated. We’d be cutting the season by 27% from 30 Super League games last year down to 22 with this proposed idea. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tommygilf 7,992 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 I like the idea of a group stage in the challenge cup, this however, is a poor way of doing it imo. Link to post Share on other sites
Rupert Prince 1,746 Posted July 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 As far as profitability is concerned (as per some suggestions).... There would be more games and thus more TV exposure and so more TV money. Assuming more money is stumped up by BBC or C4 this would give the game a higher profile, possibly more advertising and sponsorship money. This could overcome any SKY downside (if any) and indeed to what extent does having fewer SL rounds translate to fewer games on TV... or extra games could be played/ transmitted on Monday or more games transmitted on Sat/Sun. Link to post Share on other sites
Oliver Clothesoff 2,805 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 56 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: I sympathise with that and the current Cup should bring in SL clubs at the round of 32. However... as far as a "pool" system as per the Champions League, or the FIFA WC - I think the principle is sound. The issue is to what extent the competition is "seeded". In the FIFA WC for instance teams are set aside for different "pots". For me the principle should be as much knock out as possible at an appropriate stage, and then an other knock out for the remaining 8. Also give as much opportunity to Championship and L1 teams as possible. Add in extra games. Plus if it is an early season competition then later on we focus on the SL (and the Championship) without loop fixtures. Within the principle, yes for sure there is a lot to discuss about in order to reach a good balance. Top 8 of SL as “Pot 1”, Bottom 4 of SL and 4 highest ranking Championship sides as “Pot 2”, the next best ranked 8 Championship/L1 sides as “Pot 3”? So based off last season: Pot One - St Helens, Wigan, Castleford, Hull FC, Warrington, Wakefield, Catalans, Huddersfield. Pot Two - Salford, Hull KR, Leeds, Widnes, London, Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh. Pot Three - Batley, Sheffield, Dewsbury, Barrow, Rochdale, Swinton, York, Bradford. That’s based off Toronto and Toulouse not taking part as per this year’s CC. I can’t say I’d be overly enamoured by Pots Two or Three as a fan of a Super League club. Link to post Share on other sites
Rupert Prince 1,746 Posted July 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: Top 8 of SL as “Pot 1”, Bottom 4 of SL and 4 highest ranking Championship sides as “Pot 2”, the next best ranked 8 Championship/L1 sides as “Pot 3”? So based off last season: Pot One - St Helens, Wigan, Castleford, Hull FC, Warrington, Wakefield, Catalans, Huddersfield. Pot Two - Salford, Hull KR, Leeds, Widnes, London, Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh. Pot Three - Batley, Sheffield, Dewsbury, Barrow, Rochdale, Swinton, York, Bradford. That’s based off Toronto and Toulouse not taking part as per this year’s CC. I can’t say I’d be overly enamoured by Pots Two or Three as a fan of a Super League club. Yes. Plausible. I would've to see a bit more jeopardy in fact in terms of who in SL wins out to get in the list of 24. But frankly I believe the principle of what you have laid out seems OK. In terms of the detail there may well be lots of differences of opinion. But there is lots of opportunity within the system to have luck of the draw uncertainties. Link to post Share on other sites
RP London 3,156 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: Top 8 of SL as “Pot 1”, Bottom 4 of SL and 4 highest ranking Championship sides as “Pot 2”, the next best ranked 8 Championship/L1 sides as “Pot 3”? So based off last season: Pot One - St Helens, Wigan, Castleford, Hull FC, Warrington, Wakefield, Catalans, Huddersfield. Pot Two - Salford, Hull KR, Leeds, Widnes, London, Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh. Pot Three - Batley, Sheffield, Dewsbury, Barrow, Rochdale, Swinton, York, Bradford. That’s based off Toronto and Toulouse not taking part as per this year’s CC. I can’t say I’d be overly enamoured by Pots Two or Three as a fan of a Super League club. not a massive fan of a few of these ideas of revamping the cup as I like the fact it goes from amateur through to SL and i like the fact its a one off game and so 1 bad day and Halifax beat you etc.. however, looking at the above as an example. you could end up with a pots that are: 1. Huddersfield, Leeds, York 2. St Helens, Featherstone, Barrow 3. Wakefield, London, Bradford 4. Wigan, Salford, Sheffield 5. Cas, Widnes, Dewsbury 6. Hull, Hull KR, Batley 7. Warrington, Leigh, Rochdale, 8. Catalans, Halifax, Swinton If all of those had been played early in the season (as they probably would have been) then: 1... could go anywhere, even now if that got played I wouldnt know quite where to put my money. 2.. ok Saints all the way but you'll get that with straight knock out tournaments too. 3.. could go anywhere.. 4... early season form again pretty open, could be results against Sheffield that swing it. 5.. probably Cas 6... Batley to be power brokers like in group 4 but a tastey couple of match ups 7... youd say Warrington 8.. Probably Cats but Halifax have gone well in the cup.. probably has as much jeopardy as the straight knockouts to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites
Smudger06 1,062 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 I'm all for this option, Challenge Cup has a lot of potential but needs a revamp to achieve it. Link to post Share on other sites
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