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Rupert Prince

Champions League structure for Cup

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1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Top 8 of SL as “Pot 1”, Bottom 4 of SL and 4 highest ranking Championship sides as “Pot 2”, the next best ranked 8 Championship/L1 sides as “Pot 3”?

So based off last season: 

Pot One - St Helens, Wigan, Castleford, Hull FC, Warrington, Wakefield, Catalans, Huddersfield. 

Pot Two - Salford, Hull KR, Leeds, Widnes, London, Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh. 

Pot Three - Batley, Sheffield, Dewsbury, Barrow, Rochdale, Swinton, York, Bradford.

That’s based off Toronto and Toulouse not taking part as per this year’s CC. 

I can’t say I’d be overly enamoured by Pots Two or Three as a fan of a Super League club. 

Yes. Plausible.  I would've to see a bit more jeopardy in fact in terms of who in SL wins out to get in the list of 24.  But frankly I believe the principle of what you have laid out seems OK.  In terms of the detail there may well be lots of differences of opinion.  But there is lots of opportunity within the system to have luck of the draw uncertainties. 

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2 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Top 8 of SL as “Pot 1”, Bottom 4 of SL and 4 highest ranking Championship sides as “Pot 2”, the next best ranked 8 Championship/L1 sides as “Pot 3”?

So based off last season: 

Pot One - St Helens, Wigan, Castleford, Hull FC, Warrington, Wakefield, Catalans, Huddersfield. 

Pot Two - Salford, Hull KR, Leeds, Widnes, London, Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh. 

Pot Three - Batley, Sheffield, Dewsbury, Barrow, Rochdale, Swinton, York, Bradford.

That’s based off Toronto and Toulouse not taking part as per this year’s CC. 

I can’t say I’d be overly enamoured by Pots Two or Three as a fan of a Super League club. 

not a massive fan of a few of these ideas of revamping the cup as I like the fact it goes from amateur through to SL and i like the fact its a one off game and so 1 bad day and Halifax beat you etc.. however, looking at the above as an example. you could end up with a pots that are:

1. Huddersfield, Leeds, York 

2. St Helens, Featherstone, Barrow

3. Wakefield, London, Bradford

4. Wigan, Salford, Sheffield

5. Cas, Widnes, Dewsbury

6. Hull, Hull KR, Batley

7. Warrington, Leigh, Rochdale, 

8. Catalans, Halifax, Swinton

If all of those had been played early in the season (as they probably would have been) then:

1... could go anywhere, even now if that got played I wouldnt know quite where to put my money.

2.. ok Saints all the way but you'll get that with straight knock out tournaments too.

3.. could go anywhere..

4... early season form again pretty open, could be results against Sheffield that swing it.

5.. probably Cas

6... Batley to be power brokers like in group 4 but a tastey couple of match ups

7... youd say Warrington

8.. Probably Cats but Halifax have gone well in the cup.. 

probably has as much jeopardy as the straight knockouts to be honest.

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14 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Could even invite teams from NSW Cup & Queensland Cup and form a pool or 2 down under. 

A better option would be a 'french pot'.

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Be far better to have four teams to qualify to join the 12  super league teams  . Then have four groups of four playing each other home and away for six group games . Have top two in each group qualify for quarters with group winners receiving a home tie .

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Chief Crazy Eagle

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8 minutes ago, superten said:

Be far better to have four teams to qualify to join the 12  super league teams  . Then have four groups of four playing each other home and away for six group games . Have top two in each group qualify for quarters with group winners receiving a home tie .



Is that on top of a 16 team championship and 1895 cup season?

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Or, how about you put say, 32 teams into a hat and draw them out, with the first team drawn out playing at home and the second team drawn out being their opponent. Repeat this until you have 16 ties.

Then after those ties have been played you do the whole process again, this time with the 16 victorious teams. Keep repeating this until there are only 2 left and hey presto, those 2 are your finalists.

Complicated I know, but it may catch on. 

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2 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

Or, how about you put say, 32 teams into a hat and draw them out, with the first team drawn out playing at home and the second team drawn out being their opponent. Repeat this until you have 16 ties.

Then after those ties have been played you do the whole process again, this time with the 16 victorious teams. Keep repeating this until there are only 2 left and hey presto, those 2 are your finalists.

Complicated I know, but it may catch on. 

This is my preferred route. 

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5 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

Is that on top of a 16 team championship and 1895 cup season?

If we do get a 16 team championship and 1895 then no . But RFL have stated league structure to remain same next season and no one is sure if the 1895 will be retained . I hope it will be . If Challenge cup format is to be changed surely we need to look at the whole league structure . 


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28 minutes ago, superten said:

If we do get a 16 team championship and 1895 then no . But RFL have stated league structure to remain same next season and no one is sure if the 1895 will be retained . I hope it will be . If Challenge cup format is to be changed surely we need to look at the whole league structure . 

The rumours were there with a 16 team championship but for me personally they would need to drop the 1895 cup if this would be the case. Its a difficult one but totally agreed the league structure would need to review and probably will be if any sense. They could easily move to a conference system in the league. Like the idea of the new challenge cup and giving it a refresh Although the new "proposed" format goes against the tradition of knockout football and could also cause a conflict with the European Challenge cup in Rugby Union at the moment we have an Unique 1st Grade domestic competition format in both codes of Rugby. With the proposed Format you will get people saying you have copied that from Union etc

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19 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Dave Woods has a BBC podcast on his radical suggestion to reform the Challenge Cup.

I suggested this a while back. He obviously reads these boards and has taken my idea. Hopefully it happens, the Challenge Cup attendances are terrible, the early rounds need to be included in season tickets. Having groups with a fixed number of home games is ideal for this. 

The only thing I’d change is have 4 groups with each winner straight through to the semi finals, that would make every group game vital.

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1 hour ago, Private Baldrick said:

Or, how about you put say, 32 teams into a hat and draw them out, with the first team drawn out playing at home and the second team drawn out being their opponent. Repeat this until you have 16 ties.

Then after those ties have been played you do the whole process again, this time with the 16 victorious teams. Keep repeating this until there are only 2 left and hey presto, those 2 are your finalists.

Complicated I know, but it may catch on. 

Why hasnt it caught on then

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Just now, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I mean, it’s been going 123 years, I’m sure it’s caught on. 

Youd think after 123years it wouldnt have such awful attendencea and be one of the few programmes to underperform in their tv slot

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

Youd think after 123years it wouldnt have such awful attendencea and be one of the few programmes to underperform in their tv slot

And you think Super League teams playing Championship teams in dead rubber group games is going to increase attendances and suddenly create a surge of interest amongst TV viewers?

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Youd think after 123years it wouldnt have such awful attendencea and be one of the few programmes to underperform in their tv slot

There is no way you can say it currently underperforms until it moves to the new final date and you can compare what it currently gets versus whatever replaces it on that Bank Holiday weekend.

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7 minutes ago, Damien said:

There is no way you can say it currently underperforms until it moves to the new final date and you can compare what it currently gets versus whatever replaces it on that Bank Holiday weekend.

We can say that it underperforms, the comparison isn't between what it gets now and what it gets then, but what it gets in comparison to what it would be expected to get. 

We have been told by the BBC it underperforms to what it would be expected to get. 

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20 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

16 teams in the quarter final?

That was the Diane Abbott plan 

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3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We can say that it underperforms, the comparison isn't between what it gets now and what it gets then, but what it gets in comparison to what it would be expected to get. 

We have been told by the BBC it underperforms to what it would be expected to get. 

We can't and actually the BBC said the August Bank Holiday weekend was the worst performing for viewing figures for the whole year. You are being completelty disingenuous. We don't know what the Challenge Cup should be expected to get or if it underperforms because there is nothing to compare it against. When the Final moves then we can certainly compare. What we do know for certain is that the entire weekend is the worst weekend for the BBC regardless of what is actually shown.

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4 hours ago, RP London said:

not a massive fan of a few of these ideas of revamping the cup as I like the fact it goes from amateur through to SL and i like the fact its a one off game and so 1 bad day and Halifax beat you etc.. however, looking at the above as an example. you could end up with a pots that are:

1. Huddersfield, Leeds, York 

2. St Helens, Featherstone, Barrow

3. Wakefield, London, Bradford

4. Wigan, Salford, Sheffield

5. Cas, Widnes, Dewsbury

6. Hull, Hull KR, Batley

7. Warrington, Leigh, Rochdale, 

8. Catalans, Halifax, Swinton

If all of those had been played early in the season (as they probably would have been) then:

1... could go anywhere, even now if that got played I wouldnt know quite where to put my money.

2.. ok Saints all the way but you'll get that with straight knock out tournaments too.

3.. could go anywhere..

4... early season form again pretty open, could be results against Sheffield that swing it.

5.. probably Cas

6... Batley to be power brokers like in group 4 but a tastey couple of match ups

7... youd say Warrington

8.. Probably Cats but Halifax have gone well in the cup.. 

probably has as much jeopardy as the straight knockouts to be honest.

The selections of the pots the number of them and who is in them are entirely yours. There are other ways it can be done.

The Cup is a draw and as such is down to luck.  The current system is "seeded " already... probably too heavily seeded.

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13 minutes ago, Damien said:

We can't and actually the BBC said the August Bank Holiday weekend was the worst performing for viewing figures for the whole year. You are being completelty disingenuous. We don't know what the Challenge Cup should be expected to get or if it underperforms because there is nothing to compare it against. When the Final moves then we can certainly compare. What we do know for certain is that the entire weekend is the worst weekend for the BBC regardless of what is actually shown.

Im not being disingenuous at all. This is literally what they said “Domestic rugby league on the channel is declining with all audiences for live games below the timeslot average,” reported McIntyre, a St Helens fanatic. “For context, the 8.5 million people who view rugby league on the BBC this year is the same as the number who tuned in to watch the NFL last season.”

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Im not being disingenuous at all. This is literally what they said “Domestic rugby league on the channel is declining with all audiences for live games below the timeslot average,” reported McIntyre, a St Helens fanatic. “For context, the 8.5 million people who view rugby league on the BBC this year is the same as the number who tuned in to watch the NFL last season.”

Stop being disingenuous, that is referring to the Challenge Cup as a whole. No one knows what the timeslot average for the Challenge Cup final is until we move because we have played in that timeslot for years. That really shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend. When we move we can compare. Also if you quoted the next paragraph for context it would help:

Saturdays and BBC1 coverage guarantee the biggest audiences and yet that combination for the final drew just 1.3 million on the one Saturday of the year when half the population has gone away or out for one last bite of summer. McIntyre told MPs and Lords that the Beeb had been requesting to move the Challenge Cup final back into early summer for the last five years, especially away from August Bank Holiday which is the worst for viewing figures in the whole year! The RFL have finally listened.

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1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I suggested this a while back. He obviously reads these boards and has taken my idea. Hopefully it happens, the Challenge Cup attendances are terrible, the early rounds need to be included in season tickets. Having groups with a fixed number of home games is ideal for this. 

The only thing I’d change is have 4 groups with each winner straight through to the semi finals, that would make every group game vital.

No it wouldn't. 

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16 minutes ago, Damien said:

Stop being disingenuous, that is referring to the Challenge Cup as a whole. No one knows what the timeslot average for the Challenge Cup final is until we move because we have played in that timeslot for years. That really shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend. When we move we can compare. Also if you quoted the next paragraph for context it would help:

Saturdays and BBC1 coverage guarantee the biggest audiences and yet that combination for the final drew just 1.3 million on the one Saturday of the year when half the population has gone away or out for one last bite of summer. McIntyre told MPs and Lords that the Beeb had been requesting to move the Challenge Cup final back into early summer for the last five years, especially away from August Bank Holiday which is the worst for viewing figures in the whole year! The RFL have finally listened.

Why are you specifically talking about the challenge cup final and not the challenge cup as a whole? Nobody else mentioned the challenge cup final only. In fact the post I quoted was specifically about the challenge cup as a whole. That really shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend. 

What I said is pretty clear, the challenge cup as a whole underperforms. That is backed up by the statements from the BBC. When we move it we wont learn anything about this fact. 

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