Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?

[Man of Kent]

To be fair we don’t yet know if Toronto are a glorified Paris Saint-Germain or something more substantial/less cosmetic, so healthy scepticism is fair enough without labelling someone a yawnion troll IMO.

[DC77]

2 hours ago, Onieda FC said:

A lot of British people do not understand our sports culture, where following 4 or even more teams is normal. It's why we'll never have any "code wars" here. 

It’s a different culture completely.

The concept of franchises (businesses first, sports team second), of owners lifting the trophy first (players and coaches who won the thing taking a back seat), of teams moving around from one location to another (wherever is more profitable for the business), the transient fans, all of these cold, clinical aspects of North American sport is alien here.

Clubs (not “franchises”) here represent their local community. They are rooted in the area they represent, with the supporters feeling a deep connection to their club (probably why shared loyalty to another team is much less common). The owners meanwhile are merely custodians of the club. They stay in the background, write the checks, and then hand over the club to the next custodian when the time comes.

[ojx]

49 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

To be fair we don’t yet know if Toronto are a glorified Paris Saint-Germain or something more substantial/less cosmetic, so healthy scepticism is fair enough without labelling someone a yawnion troll IMO.

I completely agree, but someone like RaRa who is just making up incorrect (or random unsubstantiated) information on the other hand ...

[Onieda FC]

44 minutes ago, DC77 said:

It’s a different culture completely.

The concept of franchises (businesses first, sports team second), of owners lifting the trophy first (players and coaches who won the thing taking a back seat), of teams moving around from one location to another (wherever is more profitable for the business), the transient fans, all of these cold, clinical aspects of North American sport is alien here.

Clubs (not “franchises”) here represent their local community. They are rooted in the area they represent, with the supporters feeling a deep connection to their club (probably why shared loyalty to another team is much less common). The owners meanwhile are merely custodians of the club. They stay in the background, write the checks, and then hand over the club to the next custodian when the time comes.

While there are regrettable things that exist in US sports, this whole "we're better fans than you" stuff is hilarious. Come to Boston or go to New York and go to a sporting event and tell fans there's no connection. My grandfather is buried in a Red Sox hat. Our teams are our best representatives of our cities. "Clubs"- that's kind of a laugh. Manchester United, Chelsea, etc- those are as much "brands" as the Lakers, Eagles, or Cowboys. "Transient fans"- that's a laugher. Using that to paint us as bad fans would be the same as me saying the horrific racism on display in British sports from fans- unknown and shocking to us- represents you all. 

We're such bad fans our teams fill their own stadiums and don't need to rely on visiting fans for financial security. My Patriots season's tickets came in today, my family's 47th year of having tickets (passed from my father to me a few years ago), and the waiting list is years long. You can't get tickets to Maple Leafs games on gameday, and they haven't won anything since 1967. The Green Bay Packers have a 30 (thirty!) year long waiting list for seats. "Transient fans". LOL. 

[Onieda FC]

1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

I don't know about that. I have several rugby-loving friends who have no interest whatsoever in the Wolfpack or league in general.

I went to 2 New England Free Jacks games this year in my Toronto Wolfpack cap and heard nothing but "hey cool" or "man I'd like to get up and check that out." Maybe it exists in Canada and not here? 

[CanadianRugger]

2 hours ago, Onieda FC said:

While there are regrettable things that exist in US sports, this whole "we're better fans than you" stuff is hilarious. Come to Boston or go to New York and go to a sporting event and tell fans there's no connection. My grandfather is buried in a Red Sox hat. Our teams are our best representatives of our cities. "Clubs"- that's kind of a laugh. Manchester United, Chelsea, etc- those are as much "brands" as the Lakers, Eagles, or Cowboys. "Transient fans"- that's a laugher. Using that to paint us as bad fans would be the same as me saying the horrific racism on display in British sports from fans- unknown and shocking to us- represents you all. 

We're such bad fans our teams fill their own stadiums and don't need to rely on visiting fans for financial security. My Patriots season's tickets came in today, my family's 47th year of having tickets (passed from my father to me a few years ago), and the waiting list is years long. You can't get tickets to Maple Leafs games on gameday, and they haven't won anything since 1967. The Green Bay Packers have a 30 (thirty!) year long waiting list for seats. "Transient fans". LOL. 

We have ice hockey and football clubs in Canada that are every bit as old as any Rugby League Club. 

The Montreal Canadiens were founded in 1909 and have a 110 year history.  They are worth more as a brand than all of Rugby League combined.

The Toronto Argonauts were founded in 1873 and the Hamilton Tiger Cats were founded in1869.

[ojx]

1 hour ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Toronto Wolfpack are on record as saying that free tickets are a MAJOR part of their marketing push

I agree, but why did you make up specific unsabtatianted numbers?

1 hour ago, Raumati Rugby said:

There are University/College units based inside a 10/15 minute walk away from the ground.

There really aren't. A University from a different city with an office at BMO does not count, despite your googling efforts.

Also, if you were here for the Million pound game last year (which is doubtful as you seem to be fast and loose with the truth), you would know the beer garden wasn't full of 19-23 year olds. It sounds like you have made most things up for no apparent reason.

[ojx]

5 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

A/ There are collage and University campus inside a 15 minute walking area. This is not google, this is acually fact

Please again, what is this campus? Did you not see the posted maps?

5 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

B/ Students do look at the area around the ground as a vIable living area...it's cheap

Liberty village is not cheap.

6 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

C/ The Wolfpack have spent heavily in the Uni/College market

Evidence for another random claim? Unlikely. Just as your 100 tickets for each bar, and more than half FOC tickets random claims.

7 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

D/ I flew to NYC to see my best mate and we flew together to see the MPG. He's as Dublin as can be and had never seen a game of RL before and loved it and the game day experience.....he commented on how many 20 somethings were in the beer garden......he owns multiple sports bars in NYC and has said he would now look to show games, but he commented on the age of the people in the beer garden and the associated spend......ie, students, not ADULTS! His words.....not mine!

I was in the beer garden, and have been much more than you, this just is not correct. Perhaps you and your "mate" are quite aged and anyone under 35 seems like Uni student? Although I see you are already trying to change your story from students to 20 somethings.

8 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

E/ I have not lied once....loose and fast with the truth is only a comment you use because it's not YOUR truth. The reality is there are college offices and tutorial buildings inside a 10 minute walk and the area is well populated with student renters.

Making up random data is lying, describing something other than the observable truth is lying. It is very simple.

[ojx]

3 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

100 tickets is what the bar at 391 Kings (You're clever, you'll find it) is where they are given 100 tickets....pop and ask for Jimmy....he owns it and will sort you out if you need a ticket. As I've said repeatedly......this is not a negative stance, but a PRAGMATIC one. By all means look and fawn at Toronto, but don't cease to deal with problems close to home!

Sure, it's in my neighbourhood, I'll pop into Bar Hop and see if I can get my tix.

[ojx]

5 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

If you believe that the College/uni don't have units around the city you are not a Torontonian.

You said there was a campus within a 10-15 minute walk.  Changing your story to cover lies again?

5 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

 Liberty and the surrounding areas are cheaper than other burbs.

Another lie. For equivalent student accommodation, Liberty village is MUCH more expensive than the suburbs.

5 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

I deal in reality and pragmatism.

I thought pragmatism was based on fact?

5 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Toronto rely on free tickets for visual emphasis and pretty much 1 man for revenue.

Source?

5 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

The Emperors new clothes are there for all to see, but some it would seem are blind.

I'm not denying the seemingly unsustainability of TWP, just your lies.

[ojx]

1 minute ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Rents in Liberty and surrounding areas are cheaper than others. There are departments (collages) inside 15 minutes, I am pragmatic, Toronto are a loss making entity,,,,,,I do not deal in false lies, I deal in reality.

Parkdale is a surrounding area that is cheaper. The suburbs, as you stated before, are much cheaper.  What are these colleges or departments (before it was Uni campuses)? Your story is ever changing as you pursue the truth through google.

[ojx]

9 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

No need for google. I lived there for 5 years. Where are you based?

Based? I live in Parkdale, and have for a lot longer than 5 years.

And yet again,: Are the suburbs really more expensive than Liberty village for student accommodations? It is a fact that there are cheaper surrounding neighbourhoods, and also what are these colleges or departments you are on about (before it was Uni campuses)? Also where is you evidence of over half the tickets being FOC?

Those answers seem to being avoided in your posts. I suppose "Jimmy" can confirm all of this otherwise.

[Michael1812]

This guy clearly has no clue. Liberty village was gentrified around 2003 and is no mostly exsenive condos. It is definitely not cheap and there are no universities in walking distance from the ground unless you want to show us otherwise. 

[Manx RL]

[Omott91]

2 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

I deal in reality and pragmatism. Toronto rely on free tickets for visual emphasis and pretty much 1 man for revenue. When the other guy wanted more substance, he was removed.

THEIR LONG TERM VIABILITY 

Many, many sporting clubs around the world give free tickets and most English clubs are owned by ''sugar daddies''. Just curious why your focusing on Toronto? 

[The Parksider]

15 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Considering the complete lack of success Canada's national rugby union team has experienced over the past few years - I watched them get hammered by the Americans last Sunday - no wonder Argyle wants nothing to do with the rugby league bureaucrats.

This doesn't constitute an answer in any way, just a deflection. Perhaps if Argyle had actually worked with Perez once the Grid Iron conversion thing failed nearly three years ago, to start to assist Canada RL to make progress in developing RL in Toronto - and that would have had a good chance of progress given TWP were and still are a winning team with a lot of razzamatazz behind them - then there could well have been quite a bit of Junior and amateur RL going on by now.

You can change the argument round all you want and you can give answers to your own false proposals every time you post, but this doesn't in any way hide the reality Mr. Argyle has done nothing about player development - one of the two great aims of the TWP project, and something the game here has charged him with doing.

14 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

The Canadian Rugby Union is an utter disaster and makes the RFL look like a superbly run organization by comparison.

Same again as we have seen on every TWP thread for literally years now all questions on the two central issues that would make TWP a success i.e. player development and TV deals, questions asked what? maybe hundreds of times, are all met with rather cheap deflections like this. Whether Canadian RU is a disaster or not simply isn't the question.

It's a disaster that TWP set out to capture a paying TV deal and produce RL players from grid iron "pretty quickly" as Perez said, and three years on we may never see a Canadian RL professional or a single dollar from a North American TV deal. But:-

TWP sell beer...  TWP get "Eyeballs".... TWP are glamorous ... TWP are the future.... Canada RU is rubbish..

If anyone gets near to breaking this wall of prevarication, then the defence is they are somehow a troll or an Idiot. Would it not be better that the debate moved on to work out ways to make some sort of a return or success on Mr. Argylle's wealth and Mr. Perez's enthusiasm and organisational skills?

As I say we could have had a version of TWP in the Championship that was perhaps half way up the Championship and perhaps half full of North American players - after all TWP started with several and could easily have trialled union players to have a go at league etc etc. I would certainly have taken deep interest in that and gone to TWP games here to cheer them on. Argyle's money could have ensured the other half of the team were good players who would have maintained TWP's competitiveness.

Why not discuss that with me as opposed to deflecting away from the fact - as per the reality of what has happened - all Argylle is selfishly aiming for is his own English SL club playing in his backyard. Why not just admit it and discuss it Gentlemen, it would be really more interesting than justifying TWP by saying RU in Canada is rubbish....

It's just not the point

14 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

It looks like there will be plenty of time to get Ottawa to the starting gate as Perez now reckons on 2021

https://globalnews.ca/news/5698779/new-ottawa-rugby-league-team-now-expected-to-take-the-field-in-2021/

 

There could have been time this year to prepare, but I think the big issue will be what happens to TWP. If TWP win the Play Offs and as threatened by SL bosses Toulouse are promoted instead as "guests" then Ottawa would look really rather silly all ready to follow in TWP's footsteps. Worse still if Argylle then walks away where does that then leave Ottawa? It MAY be pointless Perez carrying on.

I was highly suspicious when it was announced Ottawa had not sorted out some sort of vital issue for next year (which tellingly we were not told what it was)  but it seems glaringly obvious - as much as this is ignored - that there will be a seismic moment when TWP finally win promotion and as per their guest status look to SL to verify that move.

Rimmer if you remember was directly asked if TWP won promotion would they go up? He said he had a signed agreement with SL that should be the case but he could not verify that 100% and understandably so given the SL bosses press release to the contrary that insulted North American clubs.

So for me Perez and Ottawa await the play off final to see how the wind blows. Do the Ottawa backers pull out if TWP are rejected?  

I don't know, all I know is if Ottawa were to run to a model of developing the game in NA I'd be happy with that.

[Man of Kent]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I was highly suspicious when it was announced Ottawa had not sorted out some sort of vital issue for next year (which tellingly we were not told what it was)  but it seems glaringly obvious - as much as this is ignored - that there will be a seismic moment when TWP finally win promotion and as per their guest status look to SL to verify that move.

Rimmer if you remember was directly asked if TWP won promotion would they go up? He said he had a signed agreement with SL that should be the case but he could not verify that 100% and understandably so given the SL bosses press release to the contrary that insulted North American clubs.

So for me Perez and Ottawa await the play off final to see how the wind blows. Do the Ottawa backers pull out if TWP are rejected?  

Ottawa may have to wait for the outcome of legal action if Toronto are refused entry to SL and sue the RFL...

[Loup]

15 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

FWIW, I have visited the Wolfpack on game day and I am very impressed with their set up/match-day experience, but I have to say on the day I was there (LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANDAAAAAAAAAAN) The Beer Garden was populated by a great many 19-23 yr olds..

You make that sound like it's a bad thing.

Wolfpack will immediately start to bus in coachloads of over 70s from surrounding retirement homes in order to make the Lamport crowds look more rugby-league appropriate. All on free tickets, of course.

[Loup]

8 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Rents in Liberty and surrounding areas are cheaper than others. There are departments (collages) inside 15 minutes, I am pragmatic, Toronto are a loss making entity,,,,,,I do not deal in false lies, I deal in reality.

 

Rents in Liberty Village when it was just plain old King Street West, back 20-30 years ago, were cheap because the area was a dump. Things have changed massively since then as gobs of new townhouses and apartment buildings went up. No longer cheap, in fact, very desirable.

There are three "institutes of education" within ten minutes walking distance of Lamport. Not exactly degree-granting universities, but definitely places where you can learn stuff. They are:

The Marca College of Hair and Esthetics at 900 Dufferin St (8 minute walk)

The Paramita Academy of Makeup at 1214 Queen St W (3 minute walk)

Joe Rockhead's Indoor Climbing (a hop and a skip south of Lamport)

[Marauder]

On 24/07/2019 at 21:17, Pudsey said:

Recipe for disaster. If ottawa come in same time as New York.  Clubs cant afford to go over twice in one season 

A man/woman with common sense, on to[p of that where are we going to get the players of the right standard from especially with the proposed reserve league next season.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

Approximately 25 players for Ottawa, plus an eighteen team reserve grade forced on Super League consisting of matchday squads of 17 players is 331 players needed in the next couple of years. 

Granted some of the 306 reserve grade players are likely to be players on the periphery of the first teams of Super League sides and existing Academy players but still, there’s a hell of a lot of players needed to appear magically from somewhere to make up the numbers and that 306 is just a matchday squad, most will want/need more than just seventeen players available to their reserve grade. 

It begs the question, are these players, if they can be sourced that is, going to be or a sufficient standard that it’s actually worthwhile and is the credibility of the competition going to be compromised by the standard of the competition and whether sides can actually name a full matchday squad? 

I’m digressing there but honestly, where are 300+ players going to appear from in the next two years? That’s before you ask whether they’re of a high enough standard to compete. 

It looks to me like this isn’t a well thought out plan at all, but that’s hardly surprising from the game of Rugby League. 

[CanadianRugger]

5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

This doesn't constitute an answer in any way, just a deflection. Perhaps if Argyle had actually worked with Perez once the Grid Iron conversion thing failed nearly three years ago, to start to assist Canada RL to make progress in developing RL in Toronto - and that would have had a good chance of progress given TWP were and still are a winning team with a lot of razzamatazz behind them - then there could well have been quite a bit of Junior and amateur RL going on by now.

You can change the argument round all you want and you can give answers to your own false proposals every time you post, but this doesn't in any way hide the reality Mr. Argyle has done nothing about player development - one of the two great aims of the TWP project, and something the game here has charged him with doing.

Same again as we have seen on every TWP thread for literally years now all questions on the two central issues that would make TWP a success i.e. player development and TV deals, questions asked what? maybe hundreds of times, are all met with rather cheap deflections like this. Whether Canadian RU is a disaster or not simply isn't the question.

It's a disaster that TWP set out to capture a paying TV deal and produce RL players from grid iron "pretty quickly" as Perez said, and three years on we may never see a Canadian RL professional or a single dollar from a North American TV deal. But:-

TWP sell beer...  TWP get "Eyeballs".... TWP are glamorous ... TWP are the future.... Canada RU is rubbish..

If anyone gets near to breaking this wall of prevarication, then the defence is they are somehow a troll or an Idiot. Would it not be better that the debate moved on to work out ways to make some sort of a return or success on Mr. Argylle's wealth and Mr. Perez's enthusiasm and organisational skills?

As I say we could have had a version of TWP in the Championship that was perhaps half way up the Championship and perhaps half full of North American players - after all TWP started with several and could easily have trialled union players to have a go at league etc etc. I would certainly have taken deep interest in that and gone to TWP games here to cheer them on. Argyle's money could have ensured the other half of the team were good players who would have maintained TWP's competitiveness.

Why not discuss that with me as opposed to deflecting away from the fact - as per the reality of what has happened - all Argylle is selfishly aiming for is his own English SL club playing in his backyard. Why not just admit it and discuss it Gentlemen, it would be really more interesting than justifying TWP by saying RU in Canada is rubbish....

It's just not the point

There could have been time this year to prepare, but I think the big issue will be what happens to TWP. If TWP win the Play Offs and as threatened by SL bosses Toulouse are promoted instead as "guests" then Ottawa would look really rather silly all ready to follow in TWP's footsteps. Worse still if Argylle then walks away where does that then leave Ottawa? It MAY be pointless Perez carrying on.

I was highly suspicious when it was announced Ottawa had not sorted out some sort of vital issue for next year (which tellingly we were not told what it was)  but it seems glaringly obvious - as much as this is ignored - that there will be a seismic moment when TWP finally win promotion and as per their guest status look to SL to verify that move.

Rimmer if you remember was directly asked if TWP won promotion would they go up? He said he had a signed agreement with SL that should be the case but he could not verify that 100% and understandably so given the SL bosses press release to the contrary that insulted North American clubs.

So for me Perez and Ottawa await the play off final to see how the wind blows. Do the Ottawa backers pull out if TWP are rejected?  

I don't know, all I know is if Ottawa were to run to a model of developing the game in NA I'd be happy with that.

You are now on my ignore list

[Lounge Room Lizard]

16 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Sorry. What?

How am I a troll, let alone a Union one? Is it just that I offer an opinion that differs from yours? Expand please. How have you come to this conclusion?

 

 

I called you a "Union Troll" because your posts very much remind me of other posters in the past that are Union fans,happy to post negatives, mistruths and lies about Rugby League. The whole tone of the one post I quoted you on was just very negative and seemed to be based on your opinion and facts that are not completely true. 

[TIWIT]

18 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

You are now on my ignore list

I put him on ignore for a bit, but since his every post gets quoted there's little point. It's impossible to escape him. He's like a yappy little dog chasing after you, barking its damn fool head off. And just about as (ir)relevant.

[fighting irish]

Listen fella's, if we want to go forward in harmony (ha ha) and be of good conscience, we have to be able to meet Parky's objections and allay his fears. Then we can all happily, sleep at night, knowing the Rugby League World is a safer place for everyone and the future looks more secure and more prosperous. Also, we can all see Parky as an ally, as a good friend who's got our best interests at heart after all. 

Can anyone offer an explanation as to how and when Mr Argyle's start up plan will achieve positive cash flow/profitability so that he can stop sinking all this money into it. The idea of a billionaire spending his money seems troublesome to a lot of people on here, since the club (in its present form) is unsustainable without him. (He might just pop his clogs). 

So, here we go.... how are the ''eyeballs'' converted to money and how long will it take?

Suggestions please?

Once we've crossed this hurdle, we can exercise our minds on the thorny issue of where the Canadian/American players are going to come from?