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Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?


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Is anybody actually convinced that zero interest outside the UK is better than any amount greater than zero?

It's not like ESPN is gonna send a separate camera crew to film the game themselves.  Whoever the UK broadcaster is will still be producing the games, and will receive something for that. I'm sure a cut of distribution after that, whether through the broadcaster or through SL, would make it back to them.

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21 hours ago, Moove said:

If SL entry criteria was as clear as you say it is, why is it necessary to have to search through odd interviews to find odd elements in isolation? How can you interpret that as being clear?  The point of my post was around the lack of clarity and transparency. Your response to it has done nothing to convince me that this clarity and transparency exists

PS. Please could you let me know which issue of the paper the interview with Eamonn McManus was in? As it has been referenced as stating entry criteria on behalf of SL without being quoted or referenced in any other media source I'd like to buy the back-issue and read it myself.

I am not here to convince you, we beg to differ. I still do not think the word stupid should have been in any way associated with the games administrators no matter how loosely given the problems about TWP’s entry to SL are of Mr. Argyle’s making. Argyle can if he wants help them by confirming if TWP win the play off, he will run reserves, pay for all travel, and play games home (in Canada) and away over the full season. He could also join and support Canada RL for a few "bucks".

I have set out all the club chairmen’s articles as they appear in League Weekly and League Express over the years and these are not "Odd interviews in isolation" , you've put that spin on them to make an unbelievable argument  that they are not relevant.

Ever since  the top chairmen fell out with the RFL back in 2014 the modus operandi across Messrs Hudgell, Pearson, Mcmanus, Moran, Davey and Lenegan who are the main players, for a number of years now, has been to take it in turns to publicise Superleague’s position on these and other matters. Never once has a fellow top chairman disagreed with another's press release as regard Superleague albeit Marwan Koukash who they suffered during his tenure with Salford called publicly to break entirely from the RFL (he was slapped down). Whatever you have seen Elstone say he is a new appointment and he is their servant and they clearly go above him as McManus did when in League weekly he made it clear to Denise Brady, that there was a” huge difference” between a team from France and a team from North America entering the competition (as guests). TO were heavily favoured with several reasons given, TWP were not, especially as regards player production, and an inability to play at home until Easter.

If you do not buy these RL papers then you won’t pick up on far and away the most relevant relevant material going that is published about Superleague's views on the future of their competition. How can you construct a valid argument about this so called expansion, and Superleague's position on it if you don't read what they say? then just dismiss it when I relay it to you?.

If you choose to start buying and reading one of these fine RL newspapers, I suggest League Express as it provides much needed  revenue to our hosts on here who allow us in for free. I’ve bought this since it was the Rugby Leaguer, in 1968. I think we should support our hosts by making such a modest purchase, I think we should read up what those in charge of the game are actually saying which would make for a more informed debate. 

15 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Maybe you should stop talking about it.

Why? It's a debate site, and more than that I buy all the publications of the good people who run the site so maybe I'm entitled to a say a bit more than others?.

You and others seem to take the view that censorship is a great thing. Right from the start several who thought the American dream was the future and the old village clubs the past, came up with the idea that the debate could be won if people would just put me and my views on ignore. You can see it on this thread where when I challenge the idea of "Eyeballs" being a great reason for TWP to be hailed as the future of Rugby League in the Northern Hemishere. Two childish posts appeared announcing gleefully that I was to be ignored? One poster (they know who they are) came on here and openly said I should be banned!

If I had some weird ideas that were pie in the SKY and would never work, and pedalled them daily then maybe there would be a time to "give it a rest"............  But I don't........I only hold the simple view that TWP isn't working, it's a massive loss maker, there's no player development, it's highly inconvenient to clubs here, it brings no added TV revenue, and every phoney NA club promotion comes with a real English club demotion. A transatlantic league would kill the game here - care to discuss????

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

Genuinely, take a sec to read this guff. 

Let's stop making up fake benefits here. I'm as committed as anyone to expansion, but making stuff up about value just gives naysayers ammo. 

The "value" was to be a large influx of North American Professional RL players into the game, and once Superleague was Transatlantic - half NA half M62 - then the mother of all TV deals was to be negotiated with a North American Broadcaster and of course that would be that for SKY. It's a nonsense to pretend SKY are so enthusiastic, when the plan was to remove them.

But clearly there are no players or paying TV contracts so something else has to be made up to keep the dream going. But it's a destructive dream that relegates more of our bigger clubs to follow Bulls and Widnes into the part time wilderness.

I can't imagine if the only professional clubs left here were Leeds, Hull, Saints, Wire and Wigan hopping over to North America every other week to play TWP, NY, Boston Ottawa etc fielding English players taken from relegated English clubs would really be "expansion"? Are you really really committed to that?

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3 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Is anybody actually convinced that zero interest outside the UK is better than any amount greater than zero?

It's not like ESPN is gonna send a separate camera crew to film the game themselves.  Whoever the UK broadcaster is will still be producing the games, and will receive something for that. I'm sure a cut of distribution after that, whether through the broadcaster or through SL, would make it back to them.

Yes, that is fair, and in a more mature environment Sky may get some value out of it, but there are plenty of different ways this could go - SLE could produce it's own content and sell worldwide rights itself, cutting out Sky, or they could allow Sky to own the whole lot and Sky make money from secondary rights.

At the moment, Sky's benefit is getting free content to show in the UK, as TWP pay for their production themselves.

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6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Why? It's a debate site, and more than that I buy all the publications of the good people who run the site so maybe I'm entitled to a say a bit more than others?.

You and others seem to take the view that censorship is a great thing. Right from the start several who thought the American dream was the future and the old village clubs the past, came up with the idea that the debate could be won if people would just put me and my views on ignore. You can see it on this thread where when I challenge the idea of "Eyeballs" being a great reason for TWP to be hailed as the future of Rugby League in the Northern Hemishere. Two childish posts appeared announcing gleefully that I was to be ignored? One poster (they know who they are) came on here and openly said I should be banned!

If I had some weird ideas that were pie in the SKY and would never work, and pedalled them daily then maybe there would be a time to "give it a rest"............  But I don't........I only hold the simple view that TWP isn't working, it's a massive loss maker, there's no player development, it's highly inconvenient to clubs here, it brings no added TV revenue, and every phoney NA club promotion comes with a real English club demotion. A transatlantic league would kill the game here - care to discuss????

I said that in relation to the part where you said you didn't have a clue. Maybe you wouldn't get shut down so much if you weren't talking out of your ass.

I notice you've conveniently ignored the rest of my post. And yet you go ahead and demand "debate" again.

You consistently ignore rebuttals when you don't like them, and continue to repeat your own view without addressing those, and then complain that others haven't engaged. Several have, repeatedly, but the cycle continues with your next post of the same old stuff followed by "discuss" ?

But anyway, here you go:

"But I don't........I only hold the simple view that TWP isn't working"

It's working enough enough that they've been allowed to continue. It was announced from the start that it was a 5 year project.  Nobody who wasn't part of that agreement knows what "working" does or doesn't look like. What was said in public by various parties is NOT necessarily what is actually required, just PR at the time of it happening.

At most I'd give you "it isn't working YET" , but we're not at 5 years so that's perfectly okay.

"it's a massive loss maker”

I don't think that's anyone's business but the owners, and the RFL who vetted them. It is very, very common for new ventures to lose money until they gain a foothold.  Especially in sports. MLR that just started - all the club's said they expected to lose money for a while. CPL just started here- they all said the same thing.

"there's no player development"

Not yet it seems. See 5 year comments above.  Maybe they've been quietly trying a few things that we don't know about it.  All we do know is that they haven't been kicked out for it, so it's not critical to the other parties yet. Would it be nice to see? Of course.  But it's only an issue because all of the club's struggle with it, i.e. it's not easy.

"it's highly inconvenient to clubs here"

Boo boo? From here it seems like the game is dying a slow death, kept alive by the IV drip of TV money. If a couple 6 hour flights a year, a few games on TV at different times, and a considerate schedule is what it takes to improve that situation, it's worth trying.  Going to the bank, post office,  unemployment centre,  or job interviews is inconvenient too. Doesn't mean we should all just stay home and twiddle our thumbs.

"It brings no added TV revenue"

Sigh.... YET. 5 years. TWP is obviously trying their very best to get to the top flight fast. North American TV is generally only interested in showing the best, certainly when it comes to a foreign sport. And that's because sports fans here generally only want to watch the best. The NHL has a 5 billion dollar TV deal in Canada. The next most popular level of hockey is major junior,  and they get 50 games a year on local cable, with an undisclosed value - i.e. nothing to brag about. Figuring out a way to accommodate TWP and others is the only way a TV deal is going to happen.

"every phoney NA club"

Calling them phoney is pretty demeaning and bigoted. They are regular people trying to start a professional team, just like anyone else trying to start a professional team. They care deeply and work hard to try to succeed.

"promotion comes with a real English club demotion"

Hmm... wouldn't the English club be demoted anyway? Whether they're being replaced by a UK club or a NA one? They finished bottom. 

TWP still has to win the playoffs.  To the English club that comes second...  Wouldn't they remain in the championship, whether they lost to a UK club or a NA one?

"A transatlantic league would kill the game here - care to discuss????"

That's one possible outcome. The game might die without it too. It could very well work. Lots of people think it will. We'll have to wait and see.

How's this for a scenario.  TWP gets to SL. Sportsnet agrees to pay enough for the tv rights to expand to 13 with everyone getting the same amount,  and Air Canada sponsors the whole thing by providing flights. Air Canada Super League. Toronto goes out and signs 25 Australians and releases all their Brits.

Would there be any objections left?

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6 hours ago, TheReaper said:

I said that in relation to the part where you said you didn't have a clue. Maybe you wouldn't get shut down so much if you weren't talking out of your ass.

I notice you've conveniently ignored the rest of my post. And yet you go ahead and demand "debate" again.

You consistently ignore rebuttals when you don't like them, and continue to repeat your own view without addressing those, and then complain that others haven't engaged. Several have, repeatedly, but the cycle continues with your next post of the same old stuff followed by "discuss" ?

But anyway, here you go:

"But I don't........I only hold the simple view that TWP isn't working"

It's working enough enough that they've been allowed to continue. It was announced from the start that it was a 5 year project.  Nobody who wasn't part of that agreement knows what "working" does or doesn't look like. What was said in public by various parties is NOT necessarily what is actually required, just PR at the time of it happening.

At most I'd give you "it isn't working YET" , but we're not at 5 years so that's perfectly okay.

"it's a massive loss maker”

I don't think that's anyone's business but the owners, and the RFL who vetted them. It is very, very common for new ventures to lose money until they gain a foothold.  Especially in sports. MLR that just started - all the club's said they expected to lose money for a while. CPL just started here- they all said the same thing.

"there's no player development"

Not yet it seems. See 5 year comments above.  Maybe they've been quietly trying a few things that we don't know about it.  All we do know is that they haven't been kicked out for it, so it's not critical to the other parties yet. Would it be nice to see? Of course.  But it's only an issue because all of the club's struggle with it, i.e. it's not easy.

"it's highly inconvenient to clubs here"

Boo boo? From here it seems like the game is dying a slow death, kept alive by the IV drip of TV money. If a couple 6 hour flights a year, a few games on TV at different times, and a considerate schedule is what it takes to improve that situation, it's worth trying.  Going to the bank, post office,  unemployment centre,  or job interviews is inconvenient too. Doesn't mean we should all just stay home and twiddle our thumbs.

"It brings no added TV revenue"

Sigh.... YET. 5 years. TWP is obviously trying their very best to get to the top flight fast. North American TV is generally only interested in showing the best, certainly when it comes to a foreign sport. And that's because sports fans here generally only want to watch the best. The NHL has a 5 billion dollar TV deal in Canada. The next most popular level of hockey is major junior,  and they get 50 games a year on local cable, with an undisclosed value - i.e. nothing to brag about. Figuring out a way to accommodate TWP and others is the only way a TV deal is going to happen.

"every phoney NA club"

Calling them phoney is pretty demeaning and bigoted. They are regular people trying to start a professional team, just like anyone else trying to start a professional team. They care deeply and work hard to try to succeed.

"promotion comes with a real English club demotion"

Hmm... wouldn't the English club be demoted anyway? Whether they're being replaced by a UK club or a NA one? They finished bottom. 

TWP still has to win the playoffs.  To the English club that comes second...  Wouldn't they remain in the championship, whether they lost to a UK club or a NA one?

"A transatlantic league would kill the game here - care to discuss????"

That's one possible outcome. The game might die without it too. It could very well work. Lots of people think it will. We'll have to wait and see.

How's this for a scenario.  TWP gets to SL. Sportsnet agrees to pay enough for the tv rights to expand to 13 with everyone getting the same amount,  and Air Canada sponsors the whole thing by providing flights. Air Canada Super League. Toronto goes out and signs 25 Australians and releases all their Brits.

Would there be any objections left?

??

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6 hours ago, TheReaper said:

How's this for a scenario.  TWP gets to SL. Sportsnet agrees to pay enough for the tv rights to expand to 13 with everyone getting the same amount,  and Air Canada sponsors the whole thing by providing flights. Air Canada Super League. Toronto goes out and signs 25 Australians and releases all their Brits.

Would there be any objections left?

No away fans.

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17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

One poster (they know who they are) came on here and openly said I should be banned!

I have explained it once but will do so again.

I was asking why mods were banning others while your aggressive and sometimes abusive posts were being overlooked. You and others will remember that you were openly and publically cautioned a few weeks ago. Logic says my questioning has therefore been justified.

However, if you feel differently, I apologize.      

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8 hours ago, Omott91 said:

You will remember that you were cautioned a few weeks ago. However, if you feel differently, I apologize.      

Yes I was and I took the caution. I was cautioned because someone complained directly. Please look back and note all the vile abuse I get regularly over three years now. and hardly  a single person has ever specifically being cautioned for an attack directly on myself. This is because I personally choose not to complain. I leave the mods alone as they have a tough job and a newspaper to get out every week. I take solace that when bans are asked for and insults thrown, as a substitute for reason and fact, then it's clear I'm winning the debate.

I don't accept your apology, your not alone in thinking an argument is won by locking away people who hold a fair alternative view. Think carefully about it please, throwaway apologies are cheap and easy.............

14 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Well done Mr. Reaper, a well constructed, alternative point of view. 

None of the current posts that are based on the tactic of just disagreeing with all I say are well constructed. The Reaper has latched onto the idea TWP have a five year agreement to compete in the RFL. The idea is they cannot be judged until the five years is up because it could be in year four and three quarters that Toronto Wolfpack finally sign a monster TV deal that gives them several $Million dollars a year to be screened, and also provides $Millions more to their opponents to share - one of the two actual aims of the TWP project that would qualify as "success".

The second idea is that although the fourth of five years of the agreement will be with us in a few months, again TWP cannot be judged now on the issue of player production. Whilst the general consensus is that not a single Canadian SL quality player will ever roll off what is a non-existent conveyor belt even in 15 years time we cannot judge them on this second actual criteria for judging the success of the TWP project yet. They may just have a second go at Grid Iron conversions, they may sign a load of Canada RU players or both in the next two years and finally have that Superleague quality home grown side by the end of year five.

In practice, as opposed to theory,  the argument is not well constructed unless you believe both developments are possible in the short time frame. DO YOU?

I have no comment on that, more importantly what I would say is that if TWP have a five year participation agreement with  the RFL then let them have that five years. Indeed let them have a 25 years participation agreement with the RFL so they can have the kind of time they need to work with Ottawa and New York and Boston to find more players and TV money. Because without expanding those two things as even Perez was clear about, we cannot expand the game can we my friend??

Think carefully before you get back on the fence. The participation agreement TWP have with the RFL is nothing to do with Superleague is it? It's Reapers red herring.

There is no such agreement with Superleague, which is why McManus was not breaking any agreement by warning TWP that in Superleagues judgement they do not meet Superleague Criteria. 

Man of Kent perhaps floated this idea Reaper latched onto but he was mistaken that such a participation agreement included a right to participate in Superleague. 

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13 hours ago, ojx said:

This RL racket has been operating for a while then?

  Do you mean Steve Ferres finding 'unreliable' owners - or the RFL accepting them?

  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-47091179

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/46170/missing-millions-a-jewish-cemetery-and-an-mp’s-fighting-fund-–-opposition-profile

  Reminiscent of The Crusaders going to Wrexham,perhaps.

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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14 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

No away fans.

I presume your objection is tongue in cheek but if the crowd at british grounds equals or surpasses the clubs seasons average then its a fair assumption that Toronto are responsible for the ''other than home teams'' fans.

Its a fairly new phenomenon in RL where ''away fans'' come from somewhere other than the visiting countries home nation.

There could be reasonable/significant numbers of fans at british super league games in future, who support Toronto but who live in England.

They don't have to cross the Atlantic to be Toronto fans.

This is just one, of the possible benefits of getting ''eyeballs'' via Toronto's coverage of their games. 

 

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2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Yes I was and I took the caution. I was cautioned because someone complained directly. Please look back and note all the vile abuse I get regularly over three years now. and hardly  a single person has ever specifically being cautioned for an attack directly on myself. This is because I personally choose not to complain. I leave the mods alone as they have a tough job and a newspaper to get out every week. I take solace that when bans are asked for and insults thrown, as a substitute for reason and fact, then it's clear I'm winning the debate.

I don't accept your apology, your not alone in thinking an argument is won by locking away people who hold a fair alternative view. Think carefully about it please, throwaway apologies are cheap and easy.............

None of the current posts that are based on the tactic of just disagreeing with all I say are well constructed. The Reaper has latched onto the idea TWP have a five year agreement to compete in the RFL. The idea is they cannot be judged until the five years is up because it could be in year four and three quarters that Toronto Wolfpack finally sign a monster TV deal that gives them several $Million dollars a year to be screened, and also provides $Millions more to their opponents to share - one of the two actual aims of the TWP project that would qualify as "success".

The second idea is that although the fourth of five years of the agreement will be with us in a few months, again TWP cannot be judged now on the issue of player production. Whilst the general consensus is that not a single Canadian SL quality player will ever roll off what is a non-existent conveyor belt even in 15 years time we cannot judge them on this second actual criteria for judging the success of the TWP project yet. They may just have a second go at Grid Iron conversions, they may sign a load of Canada RU players or both in the next two years and finally have that Superleague quality home grown side by the end of year five.

In practice, as opposed to theory,  the argument is not well constructed unless you believe both developments are possible in the short time frame. DO YOU?

I have no comment on that, more importantly what I would say is that if TWP have a five year participation agreement with  the RFL then let them have that five years. Indeed let them have a 25 years participation agreement with the RFL so they can have the kind of time they need to work with Ottawa and New York and Boston to find more players and TV money. Because without expanding those two things as even Perez was clear about, we cannot expand the game can we my friend??

Think carefully before you get back on the fence. The participation agreement TWP have with the RFL is nothing to do with Superleague is it? It's Reapers red herring.

There is no such agreement with Superleague, which is why McManus was not breaking any agreement by warning TWP that in Superleagues judgement they do not meet Superleague Criteria. 

Man of Kent perhaps floated this idea Reaper latched onto but he was mistaken that such a participation agreement included a right to participate in Superleague. 

I want to make a fuller response but don't have time today. I'll get back to you. 

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2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Yes I was and I took the caution. I was cautioned because someone complained directly. Please look back and note all the vile abuse I get regularly over three years now. and hardly  a single person has ever specifically being cautioned for an attack directly on myself. This is because I personally choose not to complain. I leave the mods alone as they have a tough job and a newspaper to get out every week. I take solace that when bans are asked for and insults thrown, as a substitute for reason and fact, then it's clear I'm winning the debate.

I don't accept your apology, your not alone in thinking an argument is won by locking away people who hold a fair alternative view. Think carefully about it please, throwaway apologies are cheap and easy.............

December 8th, 2018, on the ''Toronto'' thread.

''Can I ask how he got banned and people like Parky with the way he talks to people escapes even a warning?'' 

Can you please point to the area where I stated that you should be banned?

I don't know where you're from, but from where I grew up and how I was raised, I was taught to accept a sincere apology when it is offered.

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15 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

No away fans.

1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

There could be reasonable/significant numbers of fans at british super league games in future, who support Toronto but who live in England.

They don't have to cross the Atlantic to be Toronto fans.

This is just one, of the possible benefits of getting ''eyeballs'' via Toronto's coverage of their games. 

 

As we speak, more than 120 Wolfpack fans are converging at Odsal for today's match.

 

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3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

None of the current posts that are based on the tactic of just disagreeing with all I say are well constructed

There's a certain degree of irony in much of what you're posting playing the victim. In my previous post on this thread I provided a number of debating points. You chose to ignore these despite continuously claiming no one will debate with you, instead focussing on the 'PS' where I posed a simple request for information (which you refused to provide).

For someone of such experienced years (judging by your 50+ years of reading League Express) it's disappointing that you choose to behave in this way as I'm sure there's a sensible debate to be had. As I've said previously I even agree with a number of points you make, if not the way you make them. I've more than met you half-way in attempting to have such a debate (including after the aforementioned warning you got for throwing insults my way) but I think at this point it's time to call it a day. All the best.

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18 hours ago, Moove said:

There's a certain degree of irony in much of what you're posting playing the victim. In my previous post on this thread I provided a number of debating points. You chose to ignore these despite continuously claiming no one will debate with you......

For someone of such experienced years  it's disappointing that you choose to behave in this way as I'm sure there's a sensible debate to be had.  I've more than met you half-way in attempting to have such a debate  but I think at this point it's time to call it a day. All the best.

What you did was set your own agenda for me to discuss with you.

My "experience" therefore stood me in good stead not to fall for this cheap trick, that's been played for three years now where everything about TWP is on the table to discuss apart from the two things that really counted, and that was TWP delivering additional pro players to our shrinking player pool, and TWP adding  enough TV money to be able to share a significant sum each to their fellow Superleague clubs.

Like so many on here you haven't met me at all on these issues which are the only real issues that count in the debate. But now you've found a way to duck out you won't have to face the realities that TWP have not even set up any system to develop players and TWP admitted they can't get a big NATV deal without there being 5-6 NA clubs in Superleague - and that cannot happen without us abandoning SKY who must have a majority English club content.

Don't switch the debate to me because you can't discuss the realities.

18 hours ago, Omott91 said:

I don't know where you're from, but from where I grew up and how I was raised, I was taught to accept a sincere apology when it is offered.

I was taught to be open and honest with people and be prepared to admit when I was wrong and when others were right.

Like so many on here who know TWP have produced no players and set up no mechanism for it, and who are unable to ever get a big NATV deal because SL can't progressively go Transatlantic without losing SKY you want to argue any other old thing with me and not the actual point of TWP. The last time you started arguing I should be disciplined for some sort of breach of board rules. Now I should accept an apology?

It's just not the point is it?

Yet again you switch the point because you can't discuss the realities.

NO players. No TV deal     TWP failed.............................

Anyway next up is Fighting Irish's and Loup's idea that TWP are building a massive English fanbase which will follow TWP around the English grounds filling their coffers so heavily TWP will get into Superleague on that basis.

I'm afraid last season Leigh, Fax and Featherstone were the real drawcards when it came to attracting big crowds to Championship games, you see I looked up the facts, but this is another example of where people are realising TWP offer nothing to the game here so they keep inventing stuff - last week it was "Eyeballs" this week it's TWP's ever burgeoning army of English fans......

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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

What you did was set your own agenda for me to discuss with you.

My "experience" therefore stood me in good stead not to fall for this cheap trick, that's been played for three years now where everything about TWP is on the table to discuss apart from the two things that really counted, and that was TWP delivering additional pro players to our shrinking player pool, and TWP adding  enough TV money to be able to share a significant sum each to their fellow Superleague clubs.

Like so many on here you haven't met me at all on these issues which are the only real issues that count in the debate. But now you've found a way to duck out you won't have to face the realities that TWP have not even set up any system to develop players and TWP admitted they can't get a big NATV deal without there being 5-6 NA clubs in Superleague - and that cannot happen without us abandoning SKY who must have a majority English club content.

Don't switch the debate to me because you can't discuss the realities.

I was taught to be open and honest with people and be prepared to admit when I was wrong and when others were right.

Like so many on here who know TWP have produced no players and set up no mechanism for it, and who are unable to ever get a big NATV deal because SL can't progressively go Transatlantic without losing SKY you want to argue any other old thing with me and not the actual point of TWP. The last time you started arguing I should be disciplined for some sort of breach of board rules. Now I should accept an apology?

It's just not the point is it?

Yet again you switch the point because you can't discuss the realities.

NO players. No TV deal     TWP failed.............................

Anyway next up is Fighting Irish's and Loup's idea that TWP are building a massive English fanbase which will follow TWP around the English grounds filling their coffers so heavily TWP will get into Superleague on that basis.

I'm afraid last season Leigh, Fax and Featherstone were the real drawcards when it came to attracting big crowds to Championship games, you see I looked up the facts, but this is another example of where people are realising TWP offer nothing to the game here so they keep inventing stuff - last week it was "Eyeballs" this week it's TWP's ever burgeoning army of English fans......

I'm going to leave it here for now. I'll pick it up again at the end of the year when twp may be in Super league. At least then we will know who is correct.  

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4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

What you did was set your own agenda for me to discuss with you.

My "experience" therefore stood me in good stead not to fall for this cheap trick, that's been played for three years now where everything about TWP is on the table to discuss apart from the two things that really counted, and that was TWP delivering additional pro players to our shrinking player pool, and TWP adding  enough TV money to be able to share a significant sum each to their fellow Superleague clubs.

Like so many on here you haven't met me at all on these issues which are the only real issues that count in the debate.

...

Don't switch the debate to me because you can't discuss the realities.

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Yet again you switch the point because you can't discuss the realities.

NO players. No TV deal     TWP failed.............................

Pot/kettle.

I too have tried to engage with you, conceding that some of your points are valid, looking to understand the wider landscape, and sharing other ways that sport can grow, based on the experience of other sports reaching beyond their heartlands. Like others, my attempts to really engage in a wider debate have been ignored, and you returned to the only two points you are willing to consider.

The repetition of those two lines (just about every day, at length, exactly the same argument) gets very tiresome.  To many of us there are other issues that also count in the debate, and matter more. That makes me feel that you are the one who can't discuss the realities.

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4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

What you did was set your own agenda for me to discuss with you.

My "experience" therefore stood me in good stead not to fall for this cheap trick, that's been played for three years now where everything about TWP is on the table to discuss apart from the two things that really counted, and that was TWP delivering additional pro players to our shrinking player pool, and TWP adding  enough TV money to be able to share a significant sum each to their fellow Superleague clubs.

Like so many on here you haven't met me at all on these issues which are the only real issues that count in the debate. But now you've found a way to duck out you won't have to face the realities that TWP have not even set up any system to develop players and TWP admitted they can't get a big NATV deal without there being 5-6 NA clubs in Superleague - and that cannot happen without us abandoning SKY who must have a majority English club content.

Don't switch the debate to me because you can't discuss the realities.

Just to be clear, my original post which you quoted was purely about the clarity and transparency of entrance criteria to SL, nothing else. There are no tricks and no ducking. You have switched the debate, no one else. For the avoidance of doubt I will re-quote my original post here...

On 01/08/2019 at 16:12, Moove said:

That's the thing that gets me. Back in April SL had made an 'agreement in principle' with the RFL on entry criteria into SL (including a potential quota of foreign teams in the top flight) and details of the conditions were being finalised. In the time since, Ottawa and New York have been given a green light in principle from the RFL and member clubs to join the league structure, and yet there's still no transparency around what any team (TWP or otherwise) would need to do to be cleared to join SL should they win the Championship play-offs.

As a sport we're going to look utterly stupid if (most likely when) we get to the end of the 80th minute of the Championship Final and still nobody has a clue what is going on. Regardless of anyone's views on the viability/contribution of TWP and other start-up clubs, the situation is farcical.

You stated that the criteria was clear which I disagreed with (and still do) and provided a number of counter points to elements of your argument (see here). That is how debate works. Rather than further counter these points you instead switched to League Express subscriptions and have now subsequently tried to turn the conversation into player development and TV deals. I repeat, the original post above was about clarity and transparency of entrance criteria - nothing more, nothing less!

I am well aware of the realities of TWPs player development and TV deal. Why on earth would I meet you on those issues when I chuffing well agree with you on them? Jesus!!! But I repeat, they are absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted (see re-quote above), or the subsequent challenges/counter-points I made to your reply. It was solely about the clarity and transparency of entrance criteria to SL.

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