Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?

[ojx]

3 minutes ago, dealwithit said:

Run their reserves in Canada

I'm sure they can put a reserve team together. Any SL team would be welcome to send their reserves out for a game, at their own expense. 

[Onieda FC]

On 26/07/2019 at 09:26, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Haha nice one, I probably talked to you! Yeah its a decent little bar and off the beaten track a little so doesn't get too rammed with hipster idiots. The Cas connection came from Nick Youngquest who helped out coaching when he first moved over to New York after retiring. The after match victory song is the same as the Cas one as well which didn't go down well with me seeing as I'm from Fev!

Northern Territory is pretty good if you get a good day on the rooftop and get there early, but as you say its a little crowded.

You probably did man, I was having a good night- I think I spoke to everyone in the bar. 

Ahhh thanks for explaining the Cas connection there, I was wondering if it was random or not. 

[Onieda FC]

On 26/07/2019 at 03:49, The Parksider said:

 

But what is so great about our game that Americans will love it. They've rejected it for the best part of a century, but have accepted Rugby Union, a horrible game pre-1996 with it's archaic rules but like it or not an entertaining game in these modern times, changed and speeded up exactly for TV consumption.

 

Oh Parky. Parky, Parky, Parky.

Nobody "accepted" or "rejected" anything here. Rugby league is only played by a statistically small handful of people here. Rugby union is played by a slightly larger -but still small- handful. Rugby union has a tiny, tiny little corner of our sports landscape. All my friends and family who I've shown RL too, 99% NFL fans, have loved it. The vast majority of people here have never seen rugby of any kind, let alone rugby league. 

But as ever, continue with your completely fact free assertions about a America, a country you clearly know very little about. 

 

[Man of Kent]

On 25/07/2019 at 00:52, Raumati Rugby said:

In 1978, the NY Cosmos association Football Team attracted over 47k fans as an average for their home games....in 1986, they ceased to exist. There were very few (if any) local players in their squad, but with marketing and promotion, they did attract good paying crowds for a short period of time, before the Audience returned to their staple diet of NFL/NHL/NBL and Baseball......their last season saw them attract 12,000 fans, but even that wasn't enough to survive in the Big Apple.
They had wealthy backers and they were playing the #1 sport on the planet, yet they eventually failed.

My point is this. Toronto are great but they are not financially viable without their sugar daddies. They are still reliant on free tickets to fill the ground, they still pay to have their games televised and they have little in the way of development that is stand alone....as in away from CRU. Yes, they cost the UK no money, but they are essentially a Manchester team taking games OTR to Toronto. This is their 3rd season and the reality is they will struggle to sell season tickets if punters know they can rock up for free, so at what point does the reality of paying to go to games impact on their "fans"?

If we have 3 or 4 expansion sides opening in North America, all it is currently doing is diluting the player pool. If these teams, as is claimed by the author, are to be populated with "squad standard" NRL players, will the NRL sit idly by and watch as their future stars are cherry picked? 

Then there is the issue of TV coverage and the income from that. US TV execs think nothing of spending millions on new ventures, but in this century, it's no longer about guessing who is watching.....advertisers want to know exactly who is watching. As such, the need for an American TV audience is HUGE, but 3 years in, Toronto are still talking about "potential" audiences. Remember, Toronto open their doors for free to fill the ground and have fewer than 200 attend the "live" TV events at their sponsors bar. In return for $40,000,000 US  a year, they'll have to deliver more than a handful of viewers.

I don't want to come across as negative or anti-expansionist here, but I am cautious as to exactly what having 5 or 6 NA teams does for the game either in England or Australia. It's almost like it's a handy distraction to keep us from looking at the problems we have close to home.

Hard to see how Toronto can turn a profit selling beer, isn’t it? 

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Hard to see how Toronto can turn a profit selling beer, isn’t it? 

Seeing how busy the beer garden gets, they're undoubtedly making a lot on beer sales.

[Man of Kent]

4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Seeing how busy the beer garden gets, they're undoubtedly making a lot on beer sales.

That’s great, but it’s only for a couple of hours every other week. How is Toronto going to wash its face?

[yipyee]

On 24/07/2019 at 21:17, Pudsey said:

Recipe for disaster. If ottawa come in same time as New York.  Clubs cant afford to go over twice in one season 

I thought overseas clubs pay for the travel costs???

[yipyee]

On 24/07/2019 at 22:19, Oliver Clothesoff said:

It’s also approximately 6 days off work (possibly more) for the League One players, that’s 20% of some people’s annual leave, or worse, that’s the self-employed lads’ unable to work and losing wages. 

It's not worth going to America then is it.. Might as well stay at home.

All amateur clubs should cancel all tour games save the lads holidays!

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

That’s great, but it’s only for a couple of hours every other week. How is Toronto going to wash its face?

How many are engaged with the Rugby.  Can't help but think having a beer festival next to a university is a neat marketing trick but a little disingenuous from an attendance point of view.

I am not saying that's not an effective tool or does not help drive up actual attendance numbers.

But I am stoic, I think we need to be aware that technique might be a one trick pony.

 

[Cowardly Fan]

17 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

How many are engaged with the Rugby.  Can't help but think having a beer festival next to a university is a neat marketing trick but a little disingenuous from an attendance point of view.

I am not saying that's not an effective tool or does not help drive up actual attendance numbers.

But I am stoic, I think we need to be aware that technique might be a one trick pony.

 

We can't afford to be snobbish about people's understanding or interest in the sport. Look at racing - many people are mainly there for a nice day out, with just a slight interest in gambling and the actual races, but it brings revenue to the sport. Some of those fans who come for the beer garden will become more committed fans of the sport and others won't, we should welcome both.

[Oxford]

"My view is apparently that of a narrow minded traditional bigoted fan "

Got it in one!

And even if you're right it would still be wrong. As for supporting all the other expansions ... thank you for the right good laugh, I needed that!

[saintspete83]

I have seen a few times that "free tickets Toronto" can anyone give any facts on this to what % of the crowd are on freebies or have people just seen others mention free tickets and have taken it as gospel. Even better if anyone has been over to Toronto can they give a ticket insight. 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

4 hours ago, Cowardly Fan said:

We can't afford to be snobbish about people's understanding or interest in the sport. Look at racing - many people are mainly there for a nice day out, with just a slight interest in gambling and the actual races, but it brings revenue to the sport. Some of those fans who come for the beer garden will become more committed fans of the sport and others won't, we should welcome both.

You completely missed the point.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

3 hours ago, saintspete83 said:

I have seen a few times that "free tickets Toronto" can anyone give any facts on this to what % of the crowd are on freebies or have people just seen others mention free tickets and have taken it as gospel. Even better if anyone has been over to Toronto can they give a ticket insight. 

I have to laugh that Leigh and Batley have done games where its Free to enter, yet dont get the crowds of toronto. Whether Toronto do Free Tickets or not, 7 to 8000 people turn up. Toronto must be doing something right. They are  a couple of years old and a minnow in the Toronto Sports World.  Yet they get thousand to games (or Beer Drinking) and Clubs that are in alleged Heartland areas dont despite free entry.

[fighting irish]

Hasn't anyone seen the last episode of Back Chat this week?

At last, a few facts about Toronto Wolfpacks impact on the rest of the world.

They have been engaged in a process of raising the profile of the game, world-wide, a costly, and lengthy process.

Their backer, has a better idea (and a more realistic one) of what it will take to establish the game over there than anyone here does and he's prepared to put his money where his mouth is, for a long time, to make it happen.

He and his team are like manna from heaven for our game.

Whatever they are doing, they are doing it better than anyone in this country is doing and better than anyone here has ever done.

The stench of envy expressed in some of these posts  is palpable, sickening and verdant cabbage coloured.

Thank god for Toronto Wolfpack, I just hope they  can establish the game in Canada, before it collapses here in the ''god forsaken'' heartlands. 

 

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

I have to laugh that Leigh and Batley have done games where its Free to enter, yet dont get the crowds of toronto. Whether Toronto do Free Tickets or not, 7 to 8000 people turn up. Toronto must be doing something right. They are  a couple of years old and a minnow in the Toronto Sports World.  Yet they get thousand to games (or Beer Drinking) and Clubs that are in alleged Heartland areas dont despite free entry.

" Familiarity breeds contempt " , have you ever heard that saying ? , My brother in law who I work with , he stayed in the pub and watched today's match on the our league app , when I see him tomorrow , it will be " Leigh were sh*t , glad I didn't pay to watch that " , he hasn't paid to watch a Leigh game in probably 2 decades , when he used to we were playing Wigan , Saints and Leeds fairly regularly , he's the same with football , buys a Man City shirt every 4/5 years to wear in the pub , but I've been to Maine Rd and the Etihad more than him , and I'm a Utd fan who hasn't been watching them on a regular basis since the 90s 

 

[The Parksider]

12 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Hasn't anyone seen the last episode of Back Chat this week?

At last, a few facts about Toronto Wolfpacks impact on the rest of the world.They have been engaged in a process of raising the profile of the game, world-wide, a costly, and lengthy process.

Their backer, has a better idea (and a more realistic one) of what it will take to establish the game over there than anyone here does and he's prepared to put his money where his mouth is, for a long time, to make it happen.

Yes I saw it.

We didn't get any facts, Vickers was sent with a pre-prepared script to keep saying "eyeballs" and all the gentle questioning did was allow him to keep saying it. Do you have any proof that TWP are having "an impact on the rest of the world" 

He was not asked anything about their non existent player development system, he was not asked about whether they would run compulsory reserves for SL entry and I do not blame the hosts at all because they knew he could not answer those questions and it would not have been fair to trap him. and embarrass him on TV.

He had a free go to promote TWP and so he chose to tell us all many thousands of people used the free media to follow the club with their "eyeballs"....... but these people obviously paid nothing to do so and for how long they watched and whether they were that bothered we do not know. 

As for the money, the owner is prepared to lose $$Millions (so far) because as a $$Billionaire he can throw such sums away easily enough. As an Australian he has a love for Rugby League, but Rich sporting Canadians do not, they have plenty of established sports of their own, and those that like Rugby are supporting the established and growing Rugby Union game there, hence the TWP thing never took off.

Your entitled to your opinion whether you can back it or not, but I don't think you can, so we should leave TWP there.

Meanwhile I think we must do all we can to keep our game going because we English do actually play it and we do pay a lot of money to watch it and English TV will pay us to screen it and those are real facts..............

[Manxmanc]

43 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Yes I saw it.

We didn't get any facts, Vickers was sent with a pre-prepared script to keep saying "eyeballs" and all the gentle questioning did was allow him to keep saying it. Do you have any proof that TWP are having "an impact on the rest of the world" 

He was not asked anything about their non existent player development system, he was not asked about whether they would run compulsory reserves for SL entry and I do not blame the hosts at all because they knew he could not answer those questions and it would not have been fair to trap him. and embarrass him on TV.

He had a free go to promote TWP and so he chose to tell us all many thousands of people used the free media to follow the club with their "eyeballs"....... but these people obviously paid nothing to do so and for how long they watched and whether they were that bothered we do not know. 

As for the money, the owner is prepared to lose $$Millions (so far) because as a $$Billionaire he can throw such sums away easily enough. As an Australian he has a love for Rugby League, but Rich sporting Canadians do not, they have plenty of established sports of their own, and those that like Rugby are supporting the established and growing Rugby Union game there, hence the TWP thing never took off.

Your entitled to your opinion whether you can back it or not, but I don't think you can, so we should leave TWP there.

Meanwhile I think we must do all we can to keep our game going because we English do actually play it and we do pay a lot of money to watch it and English TV will pay us to screen it and those are real facts..............

You didn't enjoy that broadcast - clearly the positivity was uncomfortable watching. The TWP guy did give out what he considered to be facts, but you can hardly expect him to back it up with a pile of spreadsheets.You suggest he had a pre-prepared script; presumably, you have the evidence.

I do wonder at your constant references to the apparent strength of rugby union and the hopelessness of challenging their dominance.

By the way Ontario Rugby League are now pushing to strengthen their support for RL, in the form of after-school youth leagues, and funding three new Ontario RL teams - you'll be pleased to hear that development seems to be gaining momentum.

Finally, I am agreed that we must all do what we can  to keep our game going.

 

[Lounge Room Lizard]

17 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

" Familiarity breeds contempt " , have you ever heard that saying ? , My brother in law who I work with , he stayed in the pub and watched today's match on the our league app , when I see him tomorrow , it will be " Leigh were sh*t , glad I didn't pay to watch that " , he hasn't paid to watch a Leigh game in probably 2 decades , when he used to we were playing Wigan , Saints and Leeds fairly regularly , he's the same with football , buys a Man City shirt every 4/5 years to wear in the pub , but I've been to Maine Rd and the Etihad more than him , and I'm a Utd fan who hasn't been watching them on a regular basis since the 90s 

 

Whatever the reason, Toronto still pull in bigger crowds and sponsorship than heartland teams like Leigh, Batley and my Club Halifax. Whether we like it or not, the experience that Toronto offer to fans is a crowdpuller that sees atleast 6500 Canadians turn up to games. Does it matter if they watch the game or even understand it? For me No.

The fact is the game is struggling in its Heartlands to bring in fans-especially young people. When you look at the crowds that Toronto get most are young people. Toronto have alot to offer the game. It will take years for the first Canadian to play for them. Look at how long it took a player born in Melbourne to play first grade.

However the Game before looking to add Ottowa or any other North American team to the system need to look at all scenarios and ask the players of the lower leagues for their opinions as well as the Clubs. Many Players and Match Officials will need to take time off work in many cases for trips to France, let alone Canada. What guarentee can Ottowa offer that no away teams from the UK will have to pay anything?

[bird]

Martin Vicker's argument was that pre Wolfpack there was no demand for RL overseas rights as there was no interest. The club had shown otherwise and the rights had a monetary value. Sky were in the best position to exploit this via their world wide channel swapping arrangements. The inference being that Toronto add value to the Sky deal and hence negotiations.

[Onieda FC]

8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Yed to lose $$Millions (so far) because as a $$Billionaire he can throw such sums away easily enough. As an Australian he has a love for Rugby League, but Rich sporting Canadians do not, they have plenty of established sports of their own, and those that like Rugby are supporting the established and growing Rugby Union game there, hence the TWP thing never took off..........

Toronto Arrows play in Major League Rugby, where most of the players are "associate members" (aka part time semi-pros) and only a small handful are full time professionals. They get roughly 2k out to their games. TWP average over 7k and are fully professional. The national broadcaster's "rugby" section is completely dominated by the Wolfpack. 

Who is supporting what now?

Oh by the way, those established teams you mention- they also support the Wolfpack.

The opportunity for RL (and indeed RU) here in North America is the overwhelming majority of people have never seen and are not familiar with "rugby" beyond "a game that's like football except no pads." There is plenty of room, with over 350 some odd million people in both nations, for both to carve out their own niches. It's not a zero sum game. I watch both, most fans here will because we watch multiple different sports- that's our culture. The one vs. the other thing doesn't exist here. 

 

 

[yipyee]

On 28/07/2019 at 10:31, Cowardly Fan said:

We can't afford to be snobbish about people's understanding or interest in the sport. Look at racing - many people are mainly there for a nice day out, with just a slight interest in gambling and the actual races, but it brings revenue to the sport. Some of those fans who come for the beer garden will become more committed fans of the sport and others won't, we should welcome both.

Or be at the races for the live music afterwards.  I have known people to turn up late at the races just for the live music.

All brings punters to the races though....

[DOGFATHER]

6 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

Whatever the reason, Toronto still pull in bigger crowds and sponsorship than heartland teams like Leigh, Batley and my Club Halifax. Whether we like it or not, the experience that Toronto offer to fans is a crowdpuller that sees atleast 6500 Canadians turn up to games.

Population is a big part of it. 

Population of Batley 50k, Halifax 210k approx, Leigh 53k approx. Compare them to the population of Toronto 2.8M.

Marketing and Success is another big part of it:-

Marketing without success on the field doesn't help crowds much.

Success on it's own is not enough to pull in crowds either, without marketing.

Marketing combined with success on the field, attracts support.

[Lowdesert]

19 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Population is a big part of it. 

Population of Batley 50k, Halifax 210k approx, Leigh 53k approx. Compare them to the population of Toronto 2.8M.

Marketing and Success is another big part of it:-

Marketing without success on the field doesn't help crowds much.

Success on it's own is not enough to pull in crowds either, without marketing.

Marketing combined with success on the field, attracts support.

Marketing.  Tin Hat time DF.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

30 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Population is a big part of it. 

Population of Batley 50k, Halifax 210k approx, Leigh 53k approx. Compare them to the population of Toronto 2.8M.

Marketing and Success is another big part of it:-

Marketing without success on the field doesn't help crowds much.

Success on it's own is not enough to pull in crowds either, without marketing.

Marketing combined with success on the field, attracts support.

The sporting scene in Toronto is dominated by the likes of Baseball, Ice Hockey, Canadian Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball. What Sports dominate the Heavy Woolen area, Leigh and Halifax areas? How long have we has Rugby League in Toronto? A decade with mainly 3 or 4 amateur teams until the TWP came along. So no century long club or any real fan base.The game has been played professionaly and at amateur level for decades in London. London Broncos have had success and play in SL yet cant get even half the crowds of TWP

Leigh have had success and been in Super League as have Halifax. But the way them club have been run and marketed themselves over the years has been pathetic. That goes for much of the Game, except a couple of years at Keighley and then Bradford. And apart from one Promotion what success on the field have TWP had?

The game (Fans, Clubs, Administrators etc) in the UK keeps coming out with excuses and looking at shortcuts. Maybe the Game should look at how TWP entice 7,000 people to turn up watching a sport that is very much a minority one in the area. Instead of moaning and finding fault with TWP, it would be better to look at why they get 7000 crowds and good sponsorship. How they market themselves in an area dominated by big multi million Pound/Dollar Sports.