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Martyn Sadler

Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?

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Martin Vicker's argument was that pre Wolfpack there was no demand for RL overseas rights as there was no interest. The club had shown otherwise and the rights had a monetary value. Sky were in the best position to exploit this via their world wide channel swapping arrangements. The inference being that Toronto add value to the Sky deal and hence negotiations.

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8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Yed to lose $$Millions (so far) because as a $$Billionaire he can throw such sums away easily enough. As an Australian he has a love for Rugby League, but Rich sporting Canadians do not, they have plenty of established sports of their own, and those that like Rugby are supporting the established and growing Rugby Union game there, hence the TWP thing never took off..........

Toronto Arrows play in Major League Rugby, where most of the players are "associate members" (aka part time semi-pros) and only a small handful are full time professionals. They get roughly 2k out to their games. TWP average over 7k and are fully professional. The national broadcaster's "rugby" section is completely dominated by the Wolfpack. 

Who is supporting what now?

Oh by the way, those established teams you mention- they also support the Wolfpack.

The opportunity for RL (and indeed RU) here in North America is the overwhelming majority of people have never seen and are not familiar with "rugby" beyond "a game that's like football except no pads." There is plenty of room, with over 350 some odd million people in both nations, for both to carve out their own niches. It's not a zero sum game. I watch both, most fans here will because we watch multiple different sports- that's our culture. The one vs. the other thing doesn't exist here. 

 

 

Edited by Onieda FC
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On 28/07/2019 at 10:31, Cowardly Fan said:

We can't afford to be snobbish about people's understanding or interest in the sport. Look at racing - many people are mainly there for a nice day out, with just a slight interest in gambling and the actual races, but it brings revenue to the sport. Some of those fans who come for the beer garden will become more committed fans of the sport and others won't, we should welcome both.

Or be at the races for the live music afterwards.  I have known people to turn up late at the races just for the live music.

All brings punters to the races though....

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6 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

Whatever the reason, Toronto still pull in bigger crowds and sponsorship than heartland teams like Leigh, Batley and my Club Halifax. Whether we like it or not, the experience that Toronto offer to fans is a crowdpuller that sees atleast 6500 Canadians turn up to games.

Population is a big part of it. 

Population of Batley 50k, Halifax 210k approx, Leigh 53k approx. Compare them to the population of Toronto 2.8M.

Marketing and Success is another big part of it:-

Marketing without success on the field doesn't help crowds much.

Success on it's own is not enough to pull in crowds either, without marketing.

Marketing combined with success on the field, attracts support.

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19 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Population is a big part of it. 

Population of Batley 50k, Halifax 210k approx, Leigh 53k approx. Compare them to the population of Toronto 2.8M.

Marketing and Success is another big part of it:-

Marketing without success on the field doesn't help crowds much.

Success on it's own is not enough to pull in crowds either, without marketing.

Marketing combined with success on the field, attracts support.

Marketing.  Tin Hat time DF.

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30 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Population is a big part of it. 

Population of Batley 50k, Halifax 210k approx, Leigh 53k approx. Compare them to the population of Toronto 2.8M.

Marketing and Success is another big part of it:-

Marketing without success on the field doesn't help crowds much.

Success on it's own is not enough to pull in crowds either, without marketing.

Marketing combined with success on the field, attracts support.

The sporting scene in Toronto is dominated by the likes of Baseball, Ice Hockey, Canadian Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball. What Sports dominate the Heavy Woolen area, Leigh and Halifax areas? How long have we has Rugby League in Toronto? A decade with mainly 3 or 4 amateur teams until the TWP came along. So no century long club or any real fan base.The game has been played professionaly and at amateur level for decades in London. London Broncos have had success and play in SL yet cant get even half the crowds of TWP

Leigh have had success and been in Super League as have Halifax. But the way them club have been run and marketed themselves over the years has been pathetic. That goes for much of the Game, except a couple of years at Keighley and then Bradford. And apart from one Promotion what success on the field have TWP had?

The game (Fans, Clubs, Administrators etc) in the UK keeps coming out with excuses and looking at shortcuts. Maybe the Game should look at how TWP entice 7,000 people to turn up watching a sport that is very much a minority one in the area. Instead of moaning and finding fault with TWP, it would be better to look at why they get 7000 crowds and good sponsorship. How they market themselves in an area dominated by big multi million Pound/Dollar Sports.

 

Edited by Lounge Room Lizard
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To emulate them, they would first have to acknowledge that they are doing something good.

Not just good, but better than we are doing it.

Oooooooooh that's a big ask for the envious.

Good advice Lounge Room Lizard, just don't expect the boogers to listen. 

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1 hour ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

The sporting scene in Toronto is dominated by the likes of Baseball, Ice Hockey, Canadian Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball. What Sports dominate the Heavy Woolen area, Leigh and Halifax areas? How long have we has Rugby League in Toronto? A decade with mainly 3 or 4 amateur teams until the TWP came along. So no century long club or any real fan base.The game has been played professionaly and at amateur level for decades in London. London Broncos have had success and play in SL yet cant get even half the crowds of TWP

Leigh have had success and been in Super League as have Halifax. But the way them club have been run and marketed themselves over the years has been pathetic. That goes for much of the Game, except a couple of years at Keighley and then Bradford. And apart from one Promotion what success on the field have TWP had?

The game (Fans, Clubs, Administrators etc) in the UK keeps coming out with excuses and looking at shortcuts. Maybe the Game should look at how TWP entice 7,000 people to turn up watching a sport that is very much a minority one in the area. Instead of moaning and finding fault with TWP, it would be better to look at why they get 7000 crowds and good sponsorship. How they market themselves in an area dominated by big multi million Pound/Dollar Sports.

 

It's an attitude thing as much as anything. To some Toronto are 'cheating' by spending money and offering a good day out with rugby only a part of it. 

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I just hope they remind Derek Beaumont that it's Ottawa, otherwise Kayakman might find he has more than he can handle.


Learn to listen without distortion and learn to look without imagination.

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3 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

The sporting scene in Toronto is dominated by the likes of Baseball, Ice Hockey, Canadian Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball. What Sports dominate the Heavy Woolen area, Leigh and Halifax areas? How long have we has Rugby League in Toronto? A decade with mainly 3 or 4 amateur teams until the TWP came along. So no century long club or any real fan base.The game has been played professionaly and at amateur level for decades in London. London Broncos have had success and play in SL yet cant get even half the crowds of TWP

Leigh have had success and been in Super League as have Halifax. But the way them club have been run and marketed themselves over the years has been pathetic. That goes for much of the Game, except a couple of years at Keighley and then Bradford. And apart from one Promotion what success on the field have TWP had?

The game (Fans, Clubs, Administrators etc) in the UK keeps coming out with excuses and looking at shortcuts. Maybe the Game should look at how TWP entice 7,000 people to turn up watching a sport that is very much a minority one in the area. Instead of moaning and finding fault with TWP, it would be better to look at why they get 7000 crowds and good sponsorship. How they market themselves in an area dominated by big multi million Pound/Dollar Sports.

 

I think you might have the wrong end of the stick with my post LRL. I was merely pointing out that the population of a place the size of Toronto is a factor, when you are comparing it to towns with much smaller populations.

I am not decrying their achievements, all power to them and good on them. I think we could learn a great deal about the experience factor of game day. Sports fans in America and Canada seem a little different to those in the UK, in terms of the game being seen as part of the day out, rather than the be all and end all.

Maybe because UK fans have never had the opportunity to experience that sort of experience at any sport in the UK, excepting the NFL games played in the UK.

But we will see if the crowds are maintained once they start to lose games on a regular basis.That will be the acid test. Will 7000+ still be going if they are struggling near the bottom of the league for a few seasons? I hope they are, maybe it is different in Canada to here, and crowds are not as fickle.

Edited by DOGFATHER

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1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

But we will see if the crowds are maintained once they start to lose games on a regular basis.That will be the acid test. Will 7000+ still be going if they are struggling near the bottom of the league for a few seasons? I hope they are, maybe it is different in Canada to here, and crowds are not as fickle.

Don't worry about Toronto fans. This is Toronto fans filling the streets for a team who have not won anything since before mankind landed on the moon. 

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Here's Toronto fans going crazy for the worst soccer team I have ever seen, the '07 TFC- and I've supported Newcastle United since 1995...I've seen some garbage. 

The Toronto Blue Jays are woeful and have been woeful for decades now, when you go to visit- everyone's wearing their hat. 

Toronto supports it's teams very well, win (which they don't normally) or lose (which is their normal state). 

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1 minute ago, Onieda FC said:

Don't worry about Toronto fans. This is Toronto fans filling the streets for a team who have not won anything since before mankind landed on the moon. 

spacer.png

Here's Toronto fans going crazy for the worst soccer team I have ever seen, the '07 TFC- and I've supported Newcastle United since 1995...I've seen some garbage. 

The Toronto Blue Jays are woeful and have been woeful for decades now, when you go to visit- everyone's wearing their hat. 

Toronto supports it's teams very well, win (which they don't normally) or lose (which is their normal state). 

Can Batley move to Toronto please, with free travel for fans from the UK? 😉

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1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

I am not decrying their achievements, all power to them and good on them. I think we could learn a great deal about the experience factor of game day. Sports fans in America seem a little different to those in the UK, in terms of the game being seen as part of the day out, rather than the be all and end all.

Just for some perspective, we have fans in America who hate the razzamatazz around the game (music, ancillary stuff) and just want to watch the game. We have fans who just come out for the event. It's not one or the other, it's a mixture. Our sports leagues figured out a long time ago that both can co-exist and be catered to, without losing the other. My father (aged 68) hates the fact they play music after touchdowns at Gillette Stadium (home of the Patriots- where we've had tickets since 1971). My cousin who sits with us (aged 35), sings along. Everyone's happy as long we win. 

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OK, you live in Mississauga. Which NHL team is your fave? Oh, I don't know......Ontario?


Learn to listen without distortion and learn to look without imagination.

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2 minutes ago, Onieda FC said:

Just for some perspective, we have fans in America who hate the razzamatazz around the game (music, ancillary stuff) and just want to watch the game. We have fans who just come out for the event. It's not one or the other, it's a mixture. Our sports leagues figured out a long time ago that both can co-exist and be catered to, without losing the other. My father (aged 68) hates the fact they play music after touchdowns at Gillette Stadium (home of the Patriots- where we've had tickets since 1971). My cousin who sits with us (aged 35), sings along. Everyone's happy as long we win. 

I was more referring to the large numbers of fans that seem to turn up during the game. I thought it might have been a one off when I came over with Batley last year. But having seen a few games this season on tv, it seems to happen most weeks, where the ground looks pretty empty at kickoff time, and then steadily fills up over the first 20 minutes of the game.

I realise you guys are pretty laid back, but that is taking the Mickey 🙂  

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Just now, DOGFATHER said:

I was more referring to the large numbers of fans that seem to turn up during the game. I thought it might have been a one off when I came over with Batley last year. But having seen a few games this season on tv, it seems to happen most weeks, where the ground looks pretty empty at kickoff time, and then steadily fills up over the first 20 minutes of the game.

I realise you guys are pretty laid back, but that is taking the Mickey 🙂  

I don't live in Toronto, so I can't give you a reason for that. TTC (the public transport system) can be fickle- to say the least- which might have something to do with it. 

As long as they come, who cares when they get there haha. 

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3 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

OK, you live in Mississauga. Which NHL team is your fave? Oh, I don't know......Ontario?

If you lived in Mississauga and you don't root for the Leafs I'd imagine life would be very hard for you. I know a Bruins fan who lives in Hamilton and his wife's family gives him hell for it. 

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11 minutes ago, Onieda FC said:

If you lived in Mississauga and you don't root for the Leafs I'd imagine life would be very hard for you. I know a Bruins fan who lives in Hamilton and his wife's family gives him hell for it. 

Well done for missing the point.


Learn to listen without distortion and learn to look without imagination.

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11 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

Well done for missing the point.

I was trying to reinforce your point, I got you. I've been to power line city aka Mississauga haha. 

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1 minute ago, Onieda FC said:

I was trying to reinforce your point, I got you. I've been to power line city aka Mississauga haha. 

OK sorry, thanks. I have links to to Port Credit and Mimico.

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Learn to listen without distortion and learn to look without imagination.

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IF  Ottawa and New York do come straight into the Championship then I would look at totally revamping the whole Championship . This may sound harsh . But if we can do it for New York and Ottawa surely we must do it for other developing areas . Then create the northern premiership below the Championship . Take the championship back down to 12 teams for starters . Then select clubs history stadia and development area . So along with Ottawa and New York you could have wait for it (I know I am going to get lots of complaints about this but here goes .

1 Toulouse , 2 London Broncos , 3 Widnes Vikings , 4 Leigh , 5 Halifax ,  6 Featherstone  , 7 York , 8 London Skolars , 9 Bradford bulls 10 North Wales Crusaders ( Also if West Wales got its act together they might replace one of the Yorkshire clubs . I would rebrand them as South Wales Wanderers )        


Chief Crazy Eagle

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20 minutes ago, superten said:

IF  Ottawa and New York do come straight into the Championship then I would look at totally revamping the whole Championship . This may sound harsh . But if we can do it for New York and Ottawa surely we must do it for other developing areas . Then create the northern premiership below the Championship . Take the championship back down to 12 teams for starters . Then select clubs history stadia and development area . So along with Ottawa and New York you could have wait for it (I know I am going to get lots of complaints about this but here goes .

1 Toulouse , 2 London Broncos , 3 Widnes Vikings , 4 Leigh , 5 Halifax ,  6 Featherstone  , 7 York , 8 London Skolars , 9 Bradford bulls 10 North Wales Crusaders ( Also if West Wales got its act together they might replace one of the Yorkshire clubs . I would rebrand them as South Wales Wanderers )        

Really not happy with that 

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6 hours ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:

The sporting scene in Toronto is dominated by the likes of Baseball, Ice Hockey, Canadian Football, Soccer/Football, Basketball.

You can remove Canadian football from that list. No one in Toronto cares about the Toronto Argonauts. The Toronto Argonauts don't care - 4-20 since winning the Grey Cup in 2017. Announced crowds of 15,000 - half of them come disguised as empty seats. TWP can easily become more relevant than the Argos in the next few years.

Football fans in Toronto follow the NFL.

 

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7 hours ago, Onieda FC said:

The opportunity for RL (and indeed RU) here in North America is the overwhelming majority of people have never seen and are not familiar with "rugby" beyond "a game that's like football except no pads." There is plenty of room, with over 350 some odd million people in both nations, for both to carve out their own niches. It's not a zero sum game. I watch both, most fans here will because we watch multiple different sports- that's our culture. The one vs. the other thing doesn't exist here. 

I really don't get the Brits attitude towards other sports either. I can see how RL fans despise RU, but having no interest in other sports whatsoever? Watching all the different sports is the only reason I continue to pay for cable TV rather than cutting the cord.

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