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Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?


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On 29/07/2019 at 08:47, Manxmanc said:

Ontario Rugby League are now pushing to strengthen their support for RL, in the form of after-school youth leagues, and funding three new Ontario RL teams - you'll be pleased to hear that development seems to be gaining momentum

I'm more than pleased Canada RL under Bob Jowett is keeping a toehhold on RL in Canada as they are a member of the international RL community. But what they have to do with TWP If anything I don't know. I know Argyle blanked Jowett recently, refusing to become a member of CRL and he shows no desire to produce a professional RL player development system, probably on the basis he'll be in his seventies before the first few players arrive IF they ever do. Until then to be part of the Professional game Argyle has to 100% import the talent which he's happy to do. A $Billionaire spending $Millions is fine but any other Canadians investing in RL probably means really big personal losses for them year after year.

9 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

I recently asked a question about the reserve league and travel. I've yet to hear a realistic solution.If the reserve team rule is 100% compulsory, then Mr Argyle's going to have to up his spending. His sponsors (deal ends this year IIRC) will need to either double their spends if they are to remain a "Toronto" based side and where will he recruit from?

I am a pragmatic realist 

Hi welcome to the Pragmatic Realists Rugby League Club, all our games are played at Reality Park.

The Reserves requirement was rushed in with only months to get there, and clubs were told they must play a full "home and away" season. There were no if's and but's and the move came about, only a matter of a number of weeks before TWP are favourites to win promotion to a League where the top chairmen have already said they favour Toulouse being promoted. Meanwhile AFAIK David Argyle banned himself from the club so I dunno whether he's active anymore.

But of course Canada is the saviour of the failing game here.

9 hours ago, ojx said:

I do agree though, it is a 100% loss making venture completely reliant on a single individual. 

You left out "massive" between "100%" and "loss" but no matter my friend your posts become more pragmatic by the day

8 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I’m equally perplexed as you as to how Toronto can make a profit given what must be enormous (and growing) outlay relative to income. No amount of beer tokens are going to cover the losses.....

Forget the beer, it's a "Beer Screen" to avoid the reality that Argyle is spending massive amounts of money with very minimal return.

The top SL clubs AFAIK spend something towards £10,000,000 a year. I guess Argylle spends $$Millions with some sponsorships (which may be coming to an end) to off set that, and it will be more again if he has to ship reserve teams back and forward across the Atlantic.

But the answer to your query was always the obtaining of a NATV deal that meant NA clubs would enjoy $$Millions each a year from the NATV rights. Vickers on backchat spoke of how many media "eyeballs" there were on TWP inferring a TV deal was inevitable. But as Perez said some time ago "it would need 5-6 North American clubs involved in SL to attract an NA TV audience big enough and happy enough to pay the subscriptions"

So any pragmatist with his business head on will understand that this needs more rich North American owners to throw $$Millions into more NA clubs for a few years yet with no return. Perez indicates Ottawa are the next.........so it's all years down the line....

During which useless English clubs have to stand aside for the canadian newcomers - which SKY will not allow.

..........But all eyes at the moment should be on whether TWP win the play off, and if they do will they be blocked promotion wise on the reserves issue. Hope this doesn't come over as "Yada"

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11 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I really don't get the Brits attitude towards other sports either. I can see how RL fans despise RU, but having no interest in other sports whatsoever? Watching all the different sports is the only reason I continue to pay for cable TV rather than cutting the cord.

That isn't a British attitude to sports. 

People like what they like, and there will be some politics around RU on these boards, but I happily watch RL, football, F1, Darts, Snooker, Cricket, Boxing, Tennis, Athletics etc. and I am not unusual in this regard.

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The money being spent by Argylle is penny change as Rugby League clubs are incredibly cheap as far as sports teams are concerned.  

Plus everyone here keeps talking about David Argylle.  He is "one of a number of backers" there are a couple of others who have chosen to remain silent.  

As far as Argylle being active, this article was published a few days ago:

https://www.timescolonist.com/toronto-wolfpack-owner-endures-bumpy-ride-this-season-but-sees-good-things-ahead-1.23893339

 

 

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"University students?" That's a new one. Never fails to amaze me how people who've never visited Lamport Stadium come up with this stuff. Perhaps you could inform me which "local uni" you're talking about, because I can't think of one that's close by.

No doubt that TWP's fanbase has an average age considerably lower than you see at UK home games. There's also a higher proportion of women at TWP games. Is it so hard to imagine that young people would voluntarily choose to spend a summer afternoon in the sun enjoying an exciting new sport and craft beer?

People of all ages enjoy the beer garden. As one who knows.

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3 hours ago, Loup said:

"University students?" That's a new one. Never fails to amaze me how people who've never visited Lamport Stadium come up with this stuff. Perhaps you could inform me which "local uni" you're talking about, because I can't think of one that's close by.

No doubt that TWP's fanbase has an average age considerably lower than you see at UK home games. There's also a higher proportion of women at TWP games. Is it so hard to imagine that young people would voluntarily choose to spend a summer afternoon in the sun enjoying an exciting new sport and craft beer?

People of all ages enjoy the beer garden. As one who knows.

The closest university, Ryerson, isn't exactly known for its passionate sports population, unless yoy consider participating in an Antifa Movement, a sport.

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30 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

The closest university, Ryerson, isn't exactly known for its passionate sports population, unless yoy consider participating in an Antifa Movement, a sport.

Good basketball teams. Mattamy Centre is a nice unique arena.

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8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I'm more than pleased Canada RL under Bob Jowett is keeping a toehhold on RL in Canada as they are a member of the international RL community. But what they have to do with TWP If anything I don't know. I know Argyle blanked Jowett recently, refusing to become a member of CRL and he shows no desire to produce a professional RL player development system, probably on the basis he'll be in his seventies before the first few players arrive IF they ever do. Until then to be part of the Professional game Argyle has to 100% import the talent which he's happy to do. A $Billionaire spending $Millions is fine but any other Canadians investing in RL probably means really big personal losses for them year after year.

Considering the complete lack of success Canada's national rugby union team has experienced over the past few years - I watched them get hammered by the Americans last Sunday - no wonder Argyle wants nothing to do with the rugby league bureaucrats.

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46 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Considering the complete lack of success Canada's national rugby union team has experienced over the past few years - I watched them get hammered by the Americans last Sunday - no wonder Argyle wants nothing to do with the rugby league bureaucrats.

The Canadian Rugby Union is an utter disaster and makes the RFL look like a superbly run organization by comparison.

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On 29/07/2019 at 16:51, Onieda FC said:

Toronto Arrows play in Major League Rugby, where most of the players are "associate members" (aka part time semi-pros) and only a small handful are full time professionals. They get roughly 2k out to their games. TWP average over 7k and are fully professional. The national broadcaster's "rugby" section is completely dominated by the Wolfpack. 

Who is supporting what now?

Oh by the way, those established teams you mention- they also support the Wolfpack.

The opportunity for RL (and indeed RU) here in North America is the overwhelming majority of people have never seen and are not familiar with "rugby" beyond "a game that's like football except no pads." There is plenty of room, with over 350 some odd million people in both nations, for both to carve out their own niches. It's not a zero sum game. I watch both, most fans here will because we watch multiple different sports- that's our culture. The one vs. the other thing doesn't exist here. 

 

 

That's because the arrows dont have a tv deal with CBC.If they did then CBC would post about them. I don't think there's place for both codes due to there being dozens off sports trying to crack the North American market. Now is the time to put union to the sword. Lets not waste time.

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20 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I really don't get the Brits attitude towards other sports either. I can see how RL fans despise RU, but having no interest in other sports whatsoever? Watching all the different sports is the only reason I continue to pay for cable TV rather than cutting the cord.

That isn't strictly true , plenty of fans who attend RL games will follow football teams as well , more prominent in Lancashire than Yorkshire ( basically the Yorkshire footy teams are rubbish ) , but most will as I do , just follow on TV 

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20 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

How exactly have Toronto raised the Profile of the game world-wide? Genuine question. How many sports bars in Toronto show their games?

How has a wealthy Mining magnet got a better idea of what it takes to establish an alien sport? He made money digging stuff up and flogging it to the Chinese. That's not proof of any ability to do anything other than throw money at it and cross your fingers.

He and his team are currently buying success (failed last year BTW), giving away free tickets, spending heaps on advertising, paying to have their games broadcast and leasing tent spaces to local brewers who run beer festivals populated mainly by students from the nearby Uni.

They are doing the above better than anyone in the UK, but to be realistic, they are a 100% loss making entity. I for one would not suggest that being a loss making entity is a good thing, but if they stop giving tickets away, they run the risk of the ground being 2/3rd empty. If they stop the Beer Tents, even worse. At some stage they will need to cease with the freebies.

There is little envy from my quarter. I am very much pro expansion, but have witnessed what happens when clubs are built on little if any foundations. wealthy backers are great, but I shudder to think what would happen to the Wolfpack should Mr Argyle either die or change his mind.

The Game of RL is not "collapsing" in the UK heartlands. Yes, there are things that could and should be done better and I am quite sure that many mistakes have been made, but if you think Toronto are the answer, then you fail to understand the question.

As for "establishing the game in Canada", they are without doubt a well oiled marketing machine, but without local rivalries (at least 5 more clubs) they are swimming up-stream, so let's all pray that Mr Argyle looks both ways when crossing the road and keeps an eye on his Blood Pressure/Cholesterol. 

On the topic of "people falling in love with the game" as is often declared on here, North Americans have a history of embracing and abandoning sports (see my post about the cosmos/soccer). 1 mans obsession and money are great, but they are not going to make people love the game in a hurry.

I recently asked a question about the reserve league and travel. I've yet to hear a realistic solution. Do they base themselves 100% in Toronto, resulting in SL clubs forking out additional funds to get their 2nd string there, or do they base themselves 100% in Manchester, making the "Toronto" part of their name a farce. 
If the reserve team rule is 100% compulsory, then Mr Argyle's going to have to up his spending. His sponsors (deal ends this year IIRC) will need to either double their spends if they are to remain a "Toronto" based side and where will he recruit from?
I've said before the NSW/QLND cup sides will be where he searches and the NRL won't be keen on that.

 

Again, re-reading what I've just written, it comes across as Negative which is not what I intended. I am a pragmatic realist and for the life of me, I can't see anything else other than it all ending in tears unless the Ottawa and NYC teams manage to deliver the same sort of gates and have seriously wealthy backers with long term goals and buckets of patience. 

Union Troll

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Wolfpack will last as long as the sugar daddies want them too. Lot's of travel, big wages, not much cash from ticket revenue, they pay teams travel expenses and sponsors help cover a bit of it. New York will be even more expensive and is going to be the most difficult expansion effort in the history of our sport, it'll make London look like child's play. Ottawa will seem to be more modest and try to climb up slowly and spend a lot less on wages instead of the wolfpack who need to make it quickly or else the investors will pull out. 

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20 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

This is a Rugby forum and Toronto are a Rugby team. Discussing beer sales is pointless, especially as Toronto don't sell beer.

They offer pitches to local breweries (do we even know if these pitches are paid for or free?) and these beer festivals are promoted heavily across the nearby university campus. It's like "rag week" when there's a home game, with Uni students attending in huge numbers with many of these students leaving Toronto after their 3 or 4 year courses and returning to their home cities. 

Again, I really don't want to come across as negative, but the Wolfpack seem to be being built on little if any foundations other than a rich blokes money
 

What nearby university campus? You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. 

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1 hour ago, Themusician_2 said:

That's because the arrows dont have a tv deal with CBC.If they did then CBC would post about them. I don't think there's place for both codes due to there being dozens off sports trying to crack the North American market. Now is the time to put union to the sword. Lets not waste time.

The CBC is the Canadian national broadcaster. They cover things they don't have "deals" with all the time. Arrows are a small-time, semi-pro squad and are covered as such. They're mentioned in this story. They get the coverage their status warrants.

We don't see "codes" in North America. They're two different sports, just like American football and Canadian football are. Neither kind of rugby will ever be huge (NHL/NBA/NFL/MLS/MLB) in America or Canada, but there's still plenty of room to carve out a niche- which would still mean millions of new fans, sponsors, investment. 

Your code war is bizarre to us, 99% of people here have never seen any kind of rugby so all this worrying about union is just frankly weird. Rugby league will succeed or fail in North America on it's own merits. Worrying about union is a waste of time.

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21 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

How exactly have Toronto raised the Profile of the game world-wide? Genuine question. How many sports bars in Toronto show their games?

Quote

On the topic of "people falling in love with the game" as is often declared on here, North Americans have a history of embracing and abandoning sports (see my post about the cosmos/soccer). 1 mans obsession and money are great, but they are not going to make people love the game in a hurry.

Your Cosmos example was 100% wrong, as I pointed out previously in this thread and the existence of New York Red Bulls, NYCFC, and Major League Soccer (as well as the 3 levels of USL and NISA) prove you wrong here. 

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21 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I really don't get the Brits attitude towards other sports either. I can see how RL fans despise RU, but having no interest in other sports whatsoever? Watching all the different sports is the only reason I continue to pay for cable TV rather than cutting the cord.

A lot of British people do not understand our sports culture, where following 4 or even more teams is normal. It's why we'll never have any "code wars" here. 

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21 hours ago, Raumati Rugby said:

How exactly have Toronto raised the Profile of the game world-wide? Genuine question. How many sports bars in Toronto show their games?

How has a wealthy Mining magnet got a better idea of what it takes to establish an alien sport? He made money digging stuff up and flogging it to the Chinese. That's not proof of any ability to do anything other than throw money at it and cross your fingers.

He and his team are currently buying success (failed last year BTW), giving away free tickets, spending heaps on advertising, paying to have their games broadcast and leasing tent spaces to local brewers who run beer festivals populated mainly by students from the nearby Uni.

They are doing the above better than anyone in the UK, but to be realistic, they are a 100% loss making entity. I for one would not suggest that being a loss making entity is a good thing, but if they stop giving tickets away, they run the risk of the ground being 2/3rd empty. If they stop the Beer Tents, even worse. At some stage they will need to cease with the freebies.

There is little envy from my quarter. I am very much pro expansion, but have witnessed what happens when clubs are built on little if any foundations. wealthy backers are great, but I shudder to think what would happen to the Wolfpack should Mr Argyle either die or change his mind.

The Game of RL is not "collapsing" in the UK heartlands. Yes, there are things that could and should be done better and I am quite sure that many mistakes have been made, but if you think Toronto are the answer, then you fail to understand the question.

As for "establishing the game in Canada", they are without doubt a well oiled marketing machine, but without local rivalries (at least 5 more clubs) they are swimming up-stream, so let's all pray that Mr Argyle looks both ways when crossing the road and keeps an eye on his Blood Pressure/Cholesterol. 

On the topic of "people falling in love with the game" as is often declared on here, North Americans have a history of embracing and abandoning sports (see my post about the cosmos/soccer). 1 mans obsession and money are great, but they are not going to make people love the game in a hurry.

I recently asked a question about the reserve league and travel. I've yet to hear a realistic solution. Do they base themselves 100% in Toronto, resulting in SL clubs forking out additional funds to get their 2nd string there, or do they base themselves 100% in Manchester, making the "Toronto" part of their name a farce. 
If the reserve team rule is 100% compulsory, then Mr Argyle's going to have to up his spending. His sponsors (deal ends this year IIRC) will need to either double their spends if they are to remain a "Toronto" based side and where will he recruit from?
I've said before the NSW/QLND cup sides will be where he searches and the NRL won't be keen on that.

 

Again, re-reading what I've just written, it comes across as Negative which is not what I intended. I am a pragmatic realist and for the life of me, I can't see anything else other than it all ending in tears unless the Ottawa and NYC teams manage to deliver the same sort of gates and have seriously wealthy backers with long term goals and buckets of patience. 

Hey Ra Ra, you'll like this, its sung to the tune of the All Blacks haka:-

It was invented by a Welsh Ra Ra bloke.

It's really effective if you get in a half squat and wave your arms about.

''Humper - ty Dumper - ty Sat on the Wall

Humper - ty Dumper - ty Had a Great Fall

All the kings horses and all the kings men

Couldn't put 'Umpty together again''

what do you reckon? 

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37 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

there are 6 universities less than a 10 Minute walk from the ground. I know this having lived in Toronto for 5 years. Also, the rents in Liberty and Tibet are considerably lower than the CBD, so Students to seem to migrate there.....but hey, feel free to dig yourself a deeper hole if you so desire.

 

What the hell are you on about?

Toronto only has 3 universities and none of them are a 10 minute walk from Lamport Stadium. 

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37 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Wilfrid Laurier University Toronto Office to BMO field is a 14 minute walk. 

Wow, grasping at straws there. You raised good points, but when you just start making stuff up, it makes it look like you have an agenda or chip on your shoulder.

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2 hours ago, Onieda FC said:

A lot of British people do not understand our sports culture, where following 4 or even more teams is normal. It's why we'll never have any "code wars" here. 

I don't know about that. I have several rugby-loving friends who have no interest whatsoever in the Wolfpack or league in general.

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35 minutes ago, Raumati Rugby said:

Bars are given up to 100 tickets by the breweries to distribute and the MAJORITY of fans at games are there FOC.

Where did you come up with this magical 100 number? Please cite where more than half the fans are FOC.  There are a good deal of free tickets going around, but these are just wild guesses you are trying to pass off as facts.

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3 minutes ago, ojx said:

Wow, grasping at straws there. You raised good point, but when you just start making stuff up, it makes it look like you have an agenda or chip on your shoulder.

A poster deriding both the 'so called' heartlands and the expansion areas. That's a 1st outside of the yawnionists. 

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