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Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?


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1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

Listen fella's, if we want to go forward in harmony (ha ha) and be of good conscience, we have to be able to meet Parky's objections and allay his fears. Then we can all happily, sleep at night, knowing the Rugby League World is a safer place for everyone and the future looks more secure and more prosperous. Also, we can all see Parky as an ally, as a good friend who's got our best interests at heart after all. 

Can anyone offer an explanation as to how and when Mr Argyle's start up plan will achieve positive cash flow/profitability so that he can stop sinking all this money into it. The idea of a billionaire spending his money seems troublesome to a lot of people on here, since the club (in its present form) is unsustainable without him. (He might just pop his clogs). 

So, here we go.... how are the ''eyeballs'' converted to money and how long will it take?

Suggestions please?

Once we've crossed this hurdle, we can exercise our minds on the thorny issue of where the Canadian/American players are going to come from?

"Eyeballs" are already being converted to money as those persons buy tickets, licensed merchandise, food and drink at the matches and sponsors' products.

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1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

Can anyone offer an explanation as to how and when Mr Argyle's start up plan will achieve positive cash flow/profitability so that he can stop sinking all this money into it. The idea of a billionaire spending his money seems troublesome to a lot of people on here, since the club (in its present form) is unsustainable without him. (He might just pop his clogs). 

So, here we go.... how are the ''eyeballs'' converted to money and how long will it take?

I am sure that, over time, they can increase commercial revenue from support/sponsorship/merchandise/concessions, but that is not going to be enough to cover the whole enterprise. At some point TSN, or SportsNet would have to pay for it (or an online platform like DAZN). There are rumours of talks underway for when they get into SL, not sure about their credibility though.

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49 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

"Eyeballs" are already being converted to money as those persons buy tickets, licensed merchandise, food and drink at the matches and sponsors' products.

C'mon BP, is that the extent of your contribution, knowledge, imagination? We (Parky and me) want details, numbers, breakdowns, timescales etc. Where is the money coming from, in what proportions, how long before income exceeds outgoings yada yada yada? 

Give us more?

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6 minutes ago, ojx said:

I am sure that, over time, they can increase commercial revenue from support/sponsorship/merchandise/concessions, but that is not going to be enough to cover the whole enterprise. At some point TSN, or SportsNet would have to pay for it (or an online platform like DAZN). There are rumours of talks underway for when they get into SL, not sure about their credibility though.

Well that's a good start, thanks. Would anyone hazard a guess at what their weekly outgoings/income is at the moment? What is their average ticket price say? How much are their current sponsorship deals worth?

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3 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Well that's a good start, thanks. Would anyone hazard a guess at what their weekly outgoings/income is at the moment? What is their average ticket price say?

Good questions, I certainly don't have any answers. Here are the expenses I can think off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more:

  • Lamport Stadium rental (very cheap)
  • Their player and staff salaries (must be similar to a lower level SL team)
  • They have to rent training facilities at MMU.
  • Renting accommodations at George Brown college in Toronto.
  • Car rentals for players in Toronto.
  • Medical & Travel insurances.
  • Renting the TWP store in Liberty Village.
  • Advertising budget.
  • Game day entertainment costs: Cheerleaders, half time show and DJ for post game.
  • Security company for game day.
  • Immigration lawyers for TWP staff and visiting teams.
  • Cost of hosting "home" games on the road.
  • Coaches to and from airport for TWP and visiting teams.
  • Renting training fields for visiting teams.
  • Costs of game coverage production

Feel free to add to the list.  The biggest pluses for them are the free flights and cheap stadium.

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3 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I put him on ignore for a bit, but since his every post gets quoted there's little point. It's impossible to escape him. He's like a yappy little dog chasing after you, barking its damn fool head off. And just about as (ir)relevant.

You don't have to read anybodys post or quote 

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2 hours ago, ojx said:

Good questions, I certainly don't have any answers. Here are the expenses I can think off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more:

  • Lamport Stadium rental (very cheap)
  • Their player and staff salaries (must be similar to a lower level SL team)
  • They have to rent training facilities at MMU.
  • Renting accommodations at George Brown college in Toronto.
  • Car rentals for players in Toronto.
  • Medical & Travel insurances.
  • Renting the TWP store in Liberty Village.
  • Advertising budget.
  • Game day entertainment costs: Cheerleaders, half time show and DJ for post game.
  • Security company for game day.
  • Immigration lawyers for TWP staff and visiting teams.
  • Cost of hosting "home" games on the road.
  • Coaches to and from airport for TWP and visiting teams.
  • Renting training fields for visiting teams.

Feel free to add to the list.  The biggest pluses for them are the free flights and cheap stadium.

Hot dog cannon hire?

Will campus accommodation be acceptable to Super League players? Can’t imagine James Maloney, George Burgess, Sam Tomkins et al bunking up in student digs the night before a big game.

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2 hours ago, ojx said:

Good questions, I certainly don't have any answers. Here are the expenses I can think off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more:

  • Lamport Stadium rental (very cheap)
  • Their player and staff salaries (must be similar to a lower level SL team)
  • They have to rent training facilities at MMU.
  • Renting accommodations at George Brown college in Toronto.
  • Car rentals for players in Toronto.
  • Medical & Travel insurances.
  • Renting the TWP store in Liberty Village.
  • Advertising budget.
  • Game day entertainment costs: Cheerleaders, half time show and DJ for post game.
  • Security company for game day.
  • Immigration lawyers for TWP staff and visiting teams.
  • Cost of hosting "home" games on the road.
  • Coaches to and from airport for TWP and visiting teams.
  • Renting training fields for visiting teams.

Feel free to add to the list.  The biggest pluses for them are the free flights and cheap stadium.

Late payment on services and goods can help the cash flow along too

- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

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1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Will campus accommodation be acceptable to Super League players? Can’t imagine James Maloney, George Burgess, Sam Tomkins et al bunking up in student digs the night before a big game.

I've wondered about that too. Although (as I understand it) in the residences each players has their own bedroom.  They may well need to get  hotel partner for next year.

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2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Hot dog cannon hire?

Will campus accommodation be acceptable to Super League players? Can’t imagine James Maloney, George Burgess, Sam Tomkins et al bunking up in student digs the night before a big game.

 Not trying to be funny but did any of the two or three Super League sides that went to Toronto at the end of last year have any complaints?

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11 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Ottawa may have to wait for the outcome of legal action if Toronto are refused entry to SL and sue the RFL...

They can't sue the RFL as they were admitted as "guests" to the Championships which means they can be shown the door at any time.  When they were admitted Superleague had nothing to do with it at all. Nigel Wood let them in the Championship, then swanned off to the RLIF.  I think it's true SL were of a mind to admit the winners of the Championship to Superleague and may still do so, but there is no hard and fast contractual obligation to let TWP in. Do you think Superleague's smart Lawyer Neil Hudgell would ever have made such an error as to give TWP some sort of rights to promotion?. His club could be the one that ends up having to make way for them!!

No chance at all.....

8 hours ago, Marauder said:

A man/woman with common sense, on top of that where are we going to get the players of the right standard from especially with the proposed reserve league next season.

"Where will the players come from" is something I have asked for three years with no answer. They were supposed to come from Grid Iron conversions, now they are supposed to come from a couple of local kids teams Bob Jowett and Canada RL are  nurturing with absolutely no help from David Argyle.

The now fully decided requirement for all SL clubs to run reserves will see more academy players retained in England beyond 19 YO. In France the two clubs run their reserves in the French League. In Canada TWP need to ship in another 25 players over there or they won't qualify to join Superleague on the now Mandatory (not "proposed") SL entry requirement.

Rules is rules.......

6 hours ago, Big Picture said:

"Eyeballs" are already being converted to money as those persons buy tickets, licensed merchandise, food and drink at the matches and sponsors' products.

This is more deflection. The Eyeballs Vickers referred to were those (allegedly) watching TWP on various free media outlets not at the ground. His idea was those who had a free look at a game may want to go on to pay subscriptions to watch TWP.

But the problem is even if a percentage did pay subs to watch TWP, there's not enough money to provide Superleague with a cut of the subs. When Perez spoke about a TV deal he was talking about half a dozen NA clubs in Superleague capturing a NATV deal worth far far more than SKY pay. A deal that would be so big those English clubs left in Superleague  would be happy to be a part of such a deal because it would be so massive that they would get a very large share each, such that it would be worth them ditching HKR, Cas, Wakey, Fartown and Salford to get that deal.

Even if TWP copped a TV deal there's be no room to share it with English clubs. Vickers really did get a free ride in that interview. 

5 hours ago, fighting irish said:

C'mon BP, is that the extent of your contribution, knowledge, imagination? We (Parky and me) want details, numbers, breakdowns, timescales etc. Where is the money coming from, in what proportions, how long before income exceeds outgoings yada yada yada? 

We don't want any more deflections in which the hard questions are ignored and a different proposition is answered.

Big Picture tries to indicate "eyeballs" are being converted to money already by fans attending Lamport. But as we all know those 5,000 or so paying fans don't generate anywhere near the money it takes to run a transatlantic set up and pay the costs of others as it is, let alone TWP joining the reserves league and paying for all that because the clubs here won't be paying to send their reserves to North America.

We are seemingly at the "end game" now................

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8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

They can't sue the RFL as they were admitted as "guests" to the Championships which means they can be shown the door at any time.  When they were admitted Superleague had nothing to do with it at all. Nigel Wood let them in the Championship, then swanned off to the RLIF.  I think it's true SL were of a mind to admit the winners of the Championship to Superleague and may still do so, but there is no hard and fast contractual obligation to let TWP in. Do you think Superleague's smart Lawyer Neil Hudgell would ever have made such an error as to give TWP some sort of rights to promotion?. His club could be the one that ends up having to make way for them!!

No chance at all.....

"Where will the players come from" is something I have asked for three years with no answer. They were supposed to come from Grid Iron conversions, now they are supposed to come from a couple of local kids teams Bob Jowett and Canada RL are  nurturing with absolutely no help from David Argyle.

The now fully decided requirement for all SL clubs to run reserves will see more academy players retained in England beyond 19 YO. In France the two clubs run their reserves in the French League. In Canada TWP need to ship in another 25 players over there or they won't qualify to join Superleague on the now Mandatory (not "proposed") SL entry requirement.

Rules is rules.......

This is more deflection. The Eyeballs Vickers referred to were those (allegedly) watching TWP on various free media outlets not at the ground. His idea was those who had a free look at a game may want to go on to pay subscriptions to watch TWP.

But the problem is even if a percentage did pay subs to watch TWP, there's not enough money to provide Superleague with a cut of the subs. When Perez spoke about a TV deal he was talking about half a dozen NA clubs in Superleague capturing a NATV deal worth far far more than SKY pay. A deal that would be so big those English clubs left in Superleague  would be happy to be a part of such a deal because it would be so massive that they would get a very large share each, such that it would be worth them ditching HKR, Cas, Wakey, Fartown and Salford to get that deal.

Even if TWP copped a TV deal there's be no room to share it with English clubs. Vickers really did get a free ride in that interview. 

We don't want any more deflections in which the hard questions are ignored and a different proposition is answered.

Big Picture tries to indicate "eyeballs" are being converted to money already by fans attending Lamport. But as we all know those 5,000 or so paying fans don't generate anywhere near the money it takes to run a transatlantic set up and pay the costs of others as it is, let alone TWP joining the reserves league and paying for all that because the clubs here won't be paying to send their reserves to North America.

We are seemingly at the "end game" now................

My fear is all this reserves and overseas teams will cause a vacuum in an area of the game )Tier 4) that we (The Game) can't really afford it.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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15 hours ago, ojx said:

Good questions, I certainly don't have any answers. Here are the expenses I can think off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more:

  • Lamport Stadium rental (very cheap)
  • Their player and staff salaries (must be similar to a lower level SL team)
  • They have to rent training facilities at MMU.
  • Renting accommodations at George Brown college in Toronto.
  • Car rentals for players in Toronto.
  • Medical & Travel insurances.
  • Renting the TWP store in Liberty Village.
  • Advertising budget.
  • Game day entertainment costs: Cheerleaders, half time show and DJ for post game.
  • Security company for game day.
  • Immigration lawyers for TWP staff and visiting teams.
  • Cost of hosting "home" games on the road.
  • Coaches to and from airport for TWP and visiting teams.
  • Renting training fields for visiting teams.
  • Costs of game coverage production

Feel free to add to the list.  The biggest pluses for them are the free flights and cheap stadium.

Would you care to add some estimates ($ values) for these outgoings?

 

Also what I was really trying to get to, is what's inside David Argyle's mind.

Is this a rich man's folly that he is prepared to spend his loose cash on till he dies?

Or does he have a estimated time period where he is prepared to carry the cost until income overtakes expenditure.

If this is true, how long is that time period and how does he expect the income to grow to the point it exceeds the expenses.

He'd be a very unusual business man (in my experience) if he hasn't imagined the mechanism to achieve self sufficiency and calculated a rough timescale.

Presumably, someone at RFL or SuperLeague has seen his (at least broad brush) business plan.

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7 hours ago, SL17 said:

Toronto are a guest of the RFL. Who are they going to sue?

Well, if I’d signed a five-year participation agreement then proceeded to spend squillions on a new club, I’d be seeking legal action if that club was prevented from participating within that period.

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Well, if I’d signed a five-year participation agreement then proceeded to spend squillions on a new club, I’d be seeking legal action if that club was prevented from participating within that period.

They could participate though. Just possibly not in the top division

- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Well, if I’d signed a five-year participation agreement then proceeded to spend squillions on a new club, I’d be seeking legal action if that club was prevented from participating within that period.

Correct Me if I'm wrong, Les Dracs are technically guests too and as such have not got a guaranteed right to SL. 

I imagine that being the case TWP are at the mercy of SL and would have to come up with a package that the clubs are OK with if they want into SL. 

As mentioned above the likes of Cas, Salford and Wakey are not going to want extra costs in regards to travel as it is rumoured TWP will not pick up the tab for flights like they do now. 

It will be interesting to see what happens when and if TWP win the final. 

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22 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

............ it is rumoured TWP will not pick up the tab for flights like they do now.

This isn't new. It was always the arrangement that TWP would pick up the tab for flights and accommodation for teams as long as TWP was in League 1 and Championship.

On the one hand, we hear how some SL teams will find travel to Toronto a costly burden (assuming TWP win the playoffs for SL and aren't barred at the gate by Parky in person). On the other hand, we hear that SL teams are going to bring "thousands" of fans to Lamport Stadium.

If I were running SL, I'd be on the phone looking for an airline sponsor for the Manchester-Toronto route. If I were an airline, I'd give free travel to a squad of 25 or so in exchange for a thousand or more fare-paying passengers. Air Transat are in the process of being acquired by Air Canada and both fly that direct route.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Loup said:

This isn't new. It was always the arrangement that TWP would pick up the tab for flights and accommodation for teams as long as TWP was in League 1 and Championship.

On the one hand, we hear how some SL teams will find travel to Toronto a costly burden (assuming TWP win the playoffs for SL and aren't barred at the gate by Parky in person). On the other hand, we hear that SL teams are going to bring "thousands" of fans to Lamport Stadium.

If I were running SL, I'd be on the phone looking for an airline sponsor for the Manchester-Toronto route. If I were an airline, I'd give free travel to a squad of 25 or so in exchange for a thousand or more fare-paying passengers. Air Transat are in the process of being acquired by Air Canada and both fly that direct route.

Careful there, our new world mindset of finding solutions to problems such as those when they arise is evidently foreign to the old worlders.

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Just now, Big Picture said:

Careful there, our new world mindset of finding solutions to problems such as those when they arise is evidently foreign to the old worlders.

Oh I'm totally expecting to be moaned off the forum.

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Interesting discussion on Rugby League backchat this week on TWP and viewing figures:

Sunday's result against Widnes was circulated to 40 million people globally

10 million in the UK + 30 Million outside the UK

500,000 viewers watched Toronto vs Warrington last year

The three highest rated English games in Australia last year were:

1.  The Grand Final

2. Toronto vs Leeds

3. Toronto vs Toulouse

Oh and this just popped up today:

All Championship playoff games to be broadcast on Sky

https://www.totalrl.com/sky-to-broadcast-every-championship-play-off-game/?fbclid=IwAR0mtR65zlxBP22g-EFCtKma9TVBpqZ4AQWG2loNgXPq7AQbME86F77-Y70

 

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24 minutes ago, SL17 said:

TWP’s problem won’t be Parky. It’s SL they have to win over ( if of course they actually win the final) as you must be familiar with last minute decision making.

TWP have to gain promotion first, until then SL won’t comment. 

That's the thing that gets me. Back in April SL had made an 'agreement in principle' with the RFL on entry criteria into SL (including a potential quota of foreign teams in the top flight) and details of the conditions were being finalised. In the time since, Ottawa and New York have been given a green light in principle from the RFL and member clubs to join the league structure, and yet there's still no transparency around what any team (TWP or otherwise) would need to do to be cleared to join SL should they win the Championship play-offs.

As a sport we're going to look utterly stupid if (most likely when) we get to the end of the 80th minute of the Championship Final and still nobody has a clue what is going on. Regardless of anyone's views on the viability/contribution of TWP and other start-up clubs, the situation is farcical.

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9 minutes ago, Moove said:

As a sport we're going to look utterly stupid if (most likely when) we get to the end of the 80th minute of the Championship Final and still nobody has a clue what is going on. Regardless of anyone's views on the viability/contribution of TWP and other start-up clubs, the situation is farcical.

No, it's what makes it so interesting. Excitement on the pitch and a soap opera off it. This is true sports entertainment.

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