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Martyn Sadler

Can Ralph Rimmer get Ottawa to the starting gate?

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8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

They can't sue the RFL as they were admitted as "guests" to the Championships which means they can be shown the door at any time.  When they were admitted Superleague had nothing to do with it at all. Nigel Wood let them in the Championship, then swanned off to the RLIF.  I think it's true SL were of a mind to admit the winners of the Championship to Superleague and may still do so, but there is no hard and fast contractual obligation to let TWP in. Do you think Superleague's smart Lawyer Neil Hudgell would ever have made such an error as to give TWP some sort of rights to promotion?. His club could be the one that ends up having to make way for them!!

No chance at all.....

"Where will the players come from" is something I have asked for three years with no answer. They were supposed to come from Grid Iron conversions, now they are supposed to come from a couple of local kids teams Bob Jowett and Canada RL are  nurturing with absolutely no help from David Argyle.

The now fully decided requirement for all SL clubs to run reserves will see more academy players retained in England beyond 19 YO. In France the two clubs run their reserves in the French League. In Canada TWP need to ship in another 25 players over there or they won't qualify to join Superleague on the now Mandatory (not "proposed") SL entry requirement.

Rules is rules.......

This is more deflection. The Eyeballs Vickers referred to were those (allegedly) watching TWP on various free media outlets not at the ground. His idea was those who had a free look at a game may want to go on to pay subscriptions to watch TWP.

But the problem is even if a percentage did pay subs to watch TWP, there's not enough money to provide Superleague with a cut of the subs. When Perez spoke about a TV deal he was talking about half a dozen NA clubs in Superleague capturing a NATV deal worth far far more than SKY pay. A deal that would be so big those English clubs left in Superleague  would be happy to be a part of such a deal because it would be so massive that they would get a very large share each, such that it would be worth them ditching HKR, Cas, Wakey, Fartown and Salford to get that deal.

Even if TWP copped a TV deal there's be no room to share it with English clubs. Vickers really did get a free ride in that interview. 

We don't want any more deflections in which the hard questions are ignored and a different proposition is answered.

Big Picture tries to indicate "eyeballs" are being converted to money already by fans attending Lamport. But as we all know those 5,000 or so paying fans don't generate anywhere near the money it takes to run a transatlantic set up and pay the costs of others as it is, let alone TWP joining the reserves league and paying for all that because the clubs here won't be paying to send their reserves to North America.

We are seemingly at the "end game" now................

My fear is all this reserves and overseas teams will cause a vacuum in an area of the game )Tier 4) that we (The Game) can't really afford it.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

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15 hours ago, ojx said:

Good questions, I certainly don't have any answers. Here are the expenses I can think off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more:

  • Lamport Stadium rental (very cheap)
  • Their player and staff salaries (must be similar to a lower level SL team)
  • They have to rent training facilities at MMU.
  • Renting accommodations at George Brown college in Toronto.
  • Car rentals for players in Toronto.
  • Medical & Travel insurances.
  • Renting the TWP store in Liberty Village.
  • Advertising budget.
  • Game day entertainment costs: Cheerleaders, half time show and DJ for post game.
  • Security company for game day.
  • Immigration lawyers for TWP staff and visiting teams.
  • Cost of hosting "home" games on the road.
  • Coaches to and from airport for TWP and visiting teams.
  • Renting training fields for visiting teams.
  • Costs of game coverage production

Feel free to add to the list.  The biggest pluses for them are the free flights and cheap stadium.

Would you care to add some estimates ($ values) for these outgoings?

 

Also what I was really trying to get to, is what's inside David Argyle's mind.

Is this a rich man's folly that he is prepared to spend his loose cash on till he dies?

Or does he have a estimated time period where he is prepared to carry the cost until income overtakes expenditure.

If this is true, how long is that time period and how does he expect the income to grow to the point it exceeds the expenses.

He'd be a very unusual business man (in my experience) if he hasn't imagined the mechanism to achieve self sufficiency and calculated a rough timescale.

Presumably, someone at RFL or SuperLeague has seen his (at least broad brush) business plan.

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7 hours ago, SL17 said:

Toronto are a guest of the RFL. Who are they going to sue?

Well, if I’d signed a five-year participation agreement then proceeded to spend squillions on a new club, I’d be seeking legal action if that club was prevented from participating within that period.

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Well, if I’d signed a five-year participation agreement then proceeded to spend squillions on a new club, I’d be seeking legal action if that club was prevented from participating within that period.

They could participate though. Just possibly not in the top division


- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Well, if I’d signed a five-year participation agreement then proceeded to spend squillions on a new club, I’d be seeking legal action if that club was prevented from participating within that period.

Correct Me if I'm wrong, Les Dracs are technically guests too and as such have not got a guaranteed right to SL. 

I imagine that being the case TWP are at the mercy of SL and would have to come up with a package that the clubs are OK with if they want into SL. 

As mentioned above the likes of Cas, Salford and Wakey are not going to want extra costs in regards to travel as it is rumoured TWP will not pick up the tab for flights like they do now. 

It will be interesting to see what happens when and if TWP win the final. 

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22 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

............ it is rumoured TWP will not pick up the tab for flights like they do now.

This isn't new. It was always the arrangement that TWP would pick up the tab for flights and accommodation for teams as long as TWP was in League 1 and Championship.

On the one hand, we hear how some SL teams will find travel to Toronto a costly burden (assuming TWP win the playoffs for SL and aren't barred at the gate by Parky in person). On the other hand, we hear that SL teams are going to bring "thousands" of fans to Lamport Stadium.

If I were running SL, I'd be on the phone looking for an airline sponsor for the Manchester-Toronto route. If I were an airline, I'd give free travel to a squad of 25 or so in exchange for a thousand or more fare-paying passengers. Air Transat are in the process of being acquired by Air Canada and both fly that direct route.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Loup said:

This isn't new. It was always the arrangement that TWP would pick up the tab for flights and accommodation for teams as long as TWP was in League 1 and Championship.

On the one hand, we hear how some SL teams will find travel to Toronto a costly burden (assuming TWP win the playoffs for SL and aren't barred at the gate by Parky in person). On the other hand, we hear that SL teams are going to bring "thousands" of fans to Lamport Stadium.

If I were running SL, I'd be on the phone looking for an airline sponsor for the Manchester-Toronto route. If I were an airline, I'd give free travel to a squad of 25 or so in exchange for a thousand or more fare-paying passengers. Air Transat are in the process of being acquired by Air Canada and both fly that direct route.

Careful there, our new world mindset of finding solutions to problems such as those when they arise is evidently foreign to the old worlders.

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Just now, Big Picture said:

Careful there, our new world mindset of finding solutions to problems such as those when they arise is evidently foreign to the old worlders.

Oh I'm totally expecting to be moaned off the forum.

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1 hour ago, Loup said:

This isn't new. It was always the arrangement that TWP would pick up the tab for flights and accommodation for teams as long as TWP was in League 1 and Championship.

On the one hand, we hear how some SL teams will find travel to Toronto a costly burden (assuming TWP win the playoffs for SL and aren't barred at the gate by Parky in person). On the other hand, we hear that SL teams are going to bring "thousands" of fans to Lamport Stadium.

If I were running SL, I'd be on the phone looking for an airline sponsor for the Manchester-Toronto route. If I were an airline, I'd give free travel to a squad of 25 or so in exchange for a thousand or more fare-paying passengers. Air Transat are in the process of being acquired by Air Canada and both fly that direct route.

 

 

TWP’s problem won’t be Parky. It’s SL they have to win over ( if of course they actually win the final) as you must be familiar with last minute decision making.

TWP have to gain promotion first, until then SL won’t comment. 

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Interesting discussion on Rugby League backchat this week on TWP and viewing figures:

Sunday's result against Widnes was circulated to 40 million people globally

10 million in the UK + 30 Million outside the UK

500,000 viewers watched Toronto vs Warrington last year

The three highest rated English games in Australia last year were:

1.  The Grand Final

2. Toronto vs Leeds

3. Toronto vs Toulouse

Oh and this just popped up today:

All Championship playoff games to be broadcast on Sky

https://www.totalrl.com/sky-to-broadcast-every-championship-play-off-game/?fbclid=IwAR0mtR65zlxBP22g-EFCtKma9TVBpqZ4AQWG2loNgXPq7AQbME86F77-Y70

 

Edited by CanadianRugger
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24 minutes ago, SL17 said:

TWP’s problem won’t be Parky. It’s SL they have to win over ( if of course they actually win the final) as you must be familiar with last minute decision making.

TWP have to gain promotion first, until then SL won’t comment. 

That's the thing that gets me. Back in April SL had made an 'agreement in principle' with the RFL on entry criteria into SL (including a potential quota of foreign teams in the top flight) and details of the conditions were being finalised. In the time since, Ottawa and New York have been given a green light in principle from the RFL and member clubs to join the league structure, and yet there's still no transparency around what any team (TWP or otherwise) would need to do to be cleared to join SL should they win the Championship play-offs.

As a sport we're going to look utterly stupid if (most likely when) we get to the end of the 80th minute of the Championship Final and still nobody has a clue what is going on. Regardless of anyone's views on the viability/contribution of TWP and other start-up clubs, the situation is farcical.

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9 minutes ago, Moove said:

As a sport we're going to look utterly stupid if (most likely when) we get to the end of the 80th minute of the Championship Final and still nobody has a clue what is going on. Regardless of anyone's views on the viability/contribution of TWP and other start-up clubs, the situation is farcical.

No, it's what makes it so interesting. Excitement on the pitch and a soap opera off it. This is true sports entertainment.

Edited by ojx

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20 minutes ago, ojx said:

No, it's what makes it so interesting. Excitement on the pitch and a soap opera off it. This is true sports entertainment.

Discussions are supposedly occurring right now, but if what I heard on RL Backchat is true, while certain club chairmen don't like TWP, Sky apparently love the concept and the team.  

Edited by CanadianRugger
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7 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Would you care to add some estimates ($ values) for these outgoings?

Also what I was really trying to get to, is what's inside David Argyle's mind.

Is this a rich man's folly that he is prepared to spend his loose cash on till he dies?

Or does he have a estimated time period where he is prepared to carry the cost until income overtakes expenditure.

If this is true, how long is that time period and how does he expect the income to grow to the point it exceeds the expenses..

Sorry fighting, I really don't know the cost of each item, or what is happening in Mr. Argyle's mind. Like I said in an earlier post, I only think it can become profitable with a large enough TV deal. I have no idea if this is possible, however, one game a week doesn't seem like much content to sell. Maybe it can be packaged with Ottawa's games in 2021.

Edited by ojx
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10 minutes ago, ojx said:

Sorry fighting, I really don't know the cost of each item, or what is happening in Mr. Argyle's mind. Like I said in an earlier post, I only think it can become profitable with a large enough TV deal. I have no idea if this is possible, however, one game a week doesn't seem like much content to sell. Maybe it can be packaged with Ottawa's games in 2021.

That's especially true if half (or more) of those one match a week are in at an audience-unfriendly time on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

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1 hour ago, CanadianRugger said:

Interesting discussion on Rugby League backchat this week on TWP and viewing figures:

Sunday's result against Widnes was circulated to 40 million people globally

10 million in the UK + 30 Million outside the UK

What does this mean?

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

What does this mean?

Martin Vickers elaborated on TWP's long term strategy as well which is very simple.  The reason David Argylle is paying six figures of his own money to broadcast TWP games is to build a platform that gets eyeballs watching the sport.  The way forward to profitability for TWP is through streaming and television.  

Sky are happy about this because according to Vickers, they are getting more viewers of their Wolfpack broadcasts outside the UK than they are in the UK.

The Wolfpack is seen as a way to grow the games exposure.

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2 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Martin Vickers elaborated on TWP's long term strategy as well which is very simple.  The reason David Argylle is paying six figures of his own money to broadcast TWP games is to build a platform that gets eyeballs watching the sport.  The way forward to profitability for TWP is through streaming and television.  

Sky are happy about this because according to Vickers, they are getting more viewers of their Wolfpack broadcasts outside the UK than they are in the UK.

The Wolfpack is seen as a way to grow the games exposure.

I take it Vickers didn’t have stats at hand on how the “ OurLeague’ app is evolving.

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17 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Martin Vickers elaborated on TWP's long term strategy as well which is very simple.  The reason David Argylle is paying six figures of his own money to broadcast TWP games is to build a platform that gets eyeballs watching the sport.  Sky are happy about this because according to Vickers...........................................

Martin Vickers had a free ride to say whatever he wanted. It's naive to believe that because he was unchallenged on this it was true. As has been said by the journalists, if you want to ask searching questions of club officials, then they won't come on the programme. Vickers was therefore able to say what he wanted, and wasn't challenged on why TWP are not bothering to develop players, and what is happening about the Transatlantic League that would find a TV deal much bigger than SKY could ever provide.

SKY are not happy with the aim of the American dream that actually is a Transatlantic League that attracts a massive NATV contract and sidelines SKY. You can find this in Perez's online interviews but as above you do not want to find this, you do not want to debate either like Vickers, you play the same game of putting the truth on "ignore" as can be seen in your post on here where you and TIWIT are proud not to want to face the real debate. 

On 01/08/2019 at 09:48, Man of Kent said:

Well, if I’d signed a five-year participation agreement then proceeded to spend squillions on a new club, I’d be seeking legal action if that club was prevented from participating within that period.

The signed contract is with the RFL. If therefore TWP are refused promotion by Superleague TWP are contractually obliged to play on in the Championship for two more years this would enable Ottawa and New York to work their way up and create with TWP a Transatlantic league which was essentially the plan. If Argylle was ever serious then he would stick around even if he's not promoted. If he only wants Superleague for himself and cares nothing about Perez's long term aims HE may be the one to shut down and breach the agreement.

18 hours ago, Moove said:

That's the thing that gets me. Back in April SL had made an 'agreement in principle' with the RFL on entry criteria into SL yet there's still no transparency around what any team (TWP or otherwise) would need to do to be cleared to join SL should they win the Championship play-offs.As a sport we're going to look utterly stupid if (most likely when) we get to the end of the 80th minute of the Championship Final and still nobody has a clue what is going on. 

That's not so. The basic qualification for SL is win the Championship play off. That has been modified to also run a reserves team home and away as well. This has had to come in because of the dire player shortage North American clubs who don't produce any will only make worse. Read about how bad it is on the other thread.

Twice before clubs (Dewsbury & Hunslet) have played out the Championship to winning the final and had their day in the sun and had time to enjoy the glory. But in the weeks after that the hard work was done to analyse if they were strong enough for inclusion in Superleague and neither were.....

It is very clear what the situation is and it's no good making out "nobody has a clue". The cold hard reality has already been discussed in public when McManus said on behalf of Superleague that dressing English players up as North Americans does not work for Superleague. 

The only cloudy issues are the unilateral announcement by Argylle three years ago that he was going to be generous and pay all the travel and accommodation costs as his club scythed through the Championships on it's way to superleague. Once there the Superleague clubs would have to pay their own travel and accommodation. How on earth can he dictate that?? You tell me??

So once the victory parade is over the questions about whether Argylle (1) will run reserves and whether he will (2) pay all travel and accommodation to both the teams that SL clubs will send there, plus there is the issue of (3) TWP wanting to play at home here out of Manchester, until Easter which SL have already said they can't.

I do not have a clue about reserves and travel costs or where TWP would play "at home" in the winter, because Argyle isn't saying - so please do not keep having a go at Superleague's administrators indicating they are "utterly stupid" (your words).

If an overseas billionaire wants to start his own club then renege on promises to develop players and fail to bring in paying TV deals, and not run reserves, and expect Superleague clubs to stand all the travel costs to Toronto twice over and let them play "at home" here, then that's his problem to sort out.

Note also how Argyle has avoided talking to Superleague for three years - if you want to join the club talk to the committee.

I am only telling it how it is yet I note the childish posts proudly insulting me in the thread above and putting all these home truths on "Ignore". it's a tough debate this but I think we should have it accordingly don't you?.....

Edited by The Parksider

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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

it's a tough debate this but I think we should have it accordingly don't you?.....

Yes I do.

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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

That's not so. The basic qualification for SL is win the Championship play off. That has been modified to also run a reserves team home and away as well. This has had to come in because of the dire player shortage North American clubs who don't produce any will only make worse. Read about how bad it is on the other thread.

Twice before clubs (Dewsbury & Hunslet) have played out the Championship to winning the final and had their day in the sun and had time to enjoy the glory. But in the weeks after that the hard work was done to analyse if they were strong enough for inclusion in Superleague and neither were.....

It is very clear what the situation is and it's no good making out "nobody has a clue". The cold hard reality has already been discussed in public when McManus said on behalf of Superleague that dressing English players up as North Americans does not work for Superleague. 

The only cloudy issues are the unilateral announcement by Argylle three years ago that he was going to be generous and pay all the travel and accommodation costs as his club scythed through the Championships on it's way to superleague. Once there the Superleague clubs would have to pay their own travel and accommodation. How on earth can he dictate that?? You tell me??

So once the victory parade is over the questions about whether Argylle (1) will run reserves and whether he will (2) pay all travel and accommodation to both the teams that SL clubs will send there, plus there is the issue of (3) TWP wanting to play at home in Manchester until Easter which SL have already said they can't.

I do not have a clue about reserves and travel costs or where TWP would play "at home" in the winter, because Argyle isn't saying - so please do not keep having a go at Superleague's administrators indicating they are "utterly stupid" (your words).

Firstly I've excluded your last couple of lines from the quote as I've assumed they're not aimed at me even though they follow a quote of my post. I haven't commented on this thread previously in relation to anything you've said and clearly haven't insulted or blocked you.

1. I categorically did not say that SLs administrators are stupid as you've claimed in the last line above. You've made that up, and that is not conducive to a constructive debate if you're going to continue to do that. I said "as a sport we're going to look utterly stupid if...". There are few sports which have such a dilemma about its structure on a seemingly annual basis and drip feed high level P&R entry criteria in occasional interviews by individual club owners and does little to encourage investment in the sport

2. I'd question the relevance of your Dewsbury and Hunslet examples. That was so long ago now and the sport is structured differently and run differently by many different people

3. I'd question your statement of fact that reserves have only come in for next year to mitigate player development challenges for TWP. What is your evidence for this being the case? Everywhere that reserves have been mentioned has referenced player development pathways with the club environment, players returning from injury etc. The idea that everyone in the sport has lied about that and they've only agreed to reserves to put a blocker in front of TWP seems unlikely

4. The formal criteria which was to be agreed between SL and the RFL is absolutely not clear. Yes, winning the Championship is a pre-requisite. In Elstone's interview here, he backs this up by stating that there is no fast-track opportunity for any club (TWP, Toulouse or any other team). Current SL teams have agreed that they will all run a reserves next year so it may be a reasonable assumption the same (or a similar alternative as per Catalans) would apply to any other club hoping to gain promotion

5. In that same interview Elstone also claims that one of the fundamental questions about promotion (in reference to TWP/Ottawa/NYC but I would assume applies to any team), is around “...does it grow the cake? Does it come with additional fans, sponsors, broadcast revenues?". This implies that these may also form part of any entry criteria, none of which you mention despite stating that the criteria is clear. So have they decided against that in the last three months? If not, what would be the measure? How many fans? How much in sponsorship is required? What level of contribution to broadcast revenues? If it's new broadcasters then how big does the deal need to be? How does SL intend to measure the contribution of say York or Leigh (just examples) if they were to win the Championship? Do they have access to Sky Sports subscriber/viewer numbers in those areas?

6. If the criteria is indeed limited to just running reserves and winning the Championship alongside some consideration of logistics (as you're implying) then there's probably a separate debate to be had there as I'd argue that is far from being sufficient in terms of growing SL. It's also very different to the elements which Elstone referenced when he said the criteria was in the process of being finalised with the RFL back in April

7. If SL entry criteria was as clear as you say it is, why is it necessary to have to search through odd interviews to find odd elements in isolation? How can you interpret that as being clear? If it's been agreed with the RFL, why is the criteria nowhere to be found anywhere on the SL or RFL websites or the operational rules (even with a 'subject to change' clause)? The point of my post was around the lack of clarity and transparency. Your response to it has done nothing to convince me that this clarity and transparency exists

PS. Please could you let me know which issue of the paper the interview with Eamonn McManus was in? As it has been referenced as stating entry criteria on behalf of SL without being quoted or referenced in any other media source I'd like to buy the back-issue and read it myself.

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17 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Sky are happy about this because according to Vickers, they are getting more viewers of their Wolfpack broadcasts outside the UK than they are in the UK.

Why would Sky be happy with this?

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22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why would Sky be happy with this?

I don't think they covered any details. I'd have to watch it back but I think they referenced something about Sky's broadcasting partners elsewhere in the world, e.g. Australia, where the Toronto games are available. Maybe it's something like they're able to sell on rights they have to other places, not sure how that stuff works.

As a side note, there was an interesting throw away comment though about how the sport already has a broadcast deal in place for North America. Again no details mentioned as the questions moved on to other topics but it did make me wonder whether that might impact other potential NA deals being done until that agreement is up - if there's a market for such a thing of course.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Why would Sky be happy with this?

Fairly straight forward:

It's all about those eyeballs

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