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Generational divide Great Britain or England poll

Generational divide Great Britain or England poll  

154 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we play internationals as GB or England?

    • Great Britain I’m aged 40+
      46
    • England I’m aged 40+
      52
    • Great Britain I’m under 40
      20
    • England I’m under 40
      36


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1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Completely agree. The home nations and GB could complement each other perfectly, in a well-structured extensive international programme. Unfortunately this year's somewhat bodged GB tour replacing all home nations activity is precisely how it shouldn't work, IMO.

What is frustrating is that the level of discussion about GB seems to have degenerated into a binary argument similar to Brexit, where people are either for England and against GB, or vice versa. From some quarters there doesn't seem to be any willingness to entertain a more reasoned and nuanced discussion that proposes that there could be an argument for both.

Great Britain rugby league is England! Without our market ,player base and resources it doesn't exist we have full control. The Scottish, "Irish" and Welsh do not have the same level of quality and resources in this football code than England have. England will forever dominate this team. 

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3 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

Great Britain rugby league is England! Without our market ,player base and resources it doesn't exist we have full control. The Scottish, "Irish" and Welsh do not have the same level of quality and resources in this football code than England have. England will forever dominate this team. 

I don't think anyone on here disagrees with that. But I've explained in numerous previous posts how I think GB can act as a tool to help enthuse the best of the other home nations players (cases in point Ben Flower and Regan Grace).

I'd really like to hear your ideas on how to best develop these other nations' international programmes that would enthuse players to want to be a part of it, and consequently help to develop the international game. 

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6 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

So the issue with Wales is that they are not getting any big tests. The solution is so simple give them high level test matches.  Bangladesh can organise a high level test cricket game it is simply inexcusable for RL not to do it. But he is right what is more attractive at the moment as a player. Playing for GB in a Kangaroo tour or playing for Wales against not so great opposition and having a lack of games. I'm going with GB.

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Just now, Themusician_2 said:

So the issue with Wales is that they are not getting any big tests. The solution is so simple give them high level test matches.  Bangladesh can organise a high level test cricket game it is simply inexcusable for RL not to do it. But he is right what is more attractive at the moment as a player. Playing for GB in a Kangaroo tour or playing for Wales against not so great opposition and having a lack of games. I'm going with GB.

Totally agree. However, playing for your qualifying nation aught to be a prerequisite for getting in the GB squad.

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16 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

what's stopping a player from committing to Wales without GB? 

Nothing, but nothing is really enticing them either. 

The likelihood of Wales or Scotland independently organising major events like tours to the Pacific is unlikely in the short to medium term. Fine, let the RFL through GB every 4 years give their players that opportunity - on the proviso the players commit to representing Wales and Scotland etc. and the RFL who seem intent on including GB commit to guaranteeing Wales and Scotland test matches against England.

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3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I don't think anyone on here disagrees with that. But I've explained in numerous previous posts how I think GB can act as a tool to help enthuse the best of the other home nations players (cases in point Ben Flower and Regan Grace).

I'd really like to hear your ideas on how to best develop these other nations' international programmes that would enthuse players to want to be a part of it, and consequently help to develop the international game. 

We need to nullify what makes GB attractive and finally put it to the sword. And at the moment what makes it attractive for the small number of welsh and Scottish players that make the squad is that they get to play against top quality opposition like the Kiwis and Kangaroos. We need to give the home nations more tests and once in a while a high level SH test. That will nullify the attractiveness of GB for non-English players. And develop the home nations teams giving them high level experience on the international stage in this football code.

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2 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

We need to nullify what makes GB attractive and finally put it to the sword. And at the moment what makes it attractive for the small number of welsh and Scottish players that make the squad is that they get to play against top quality opposition like the Kiwis and Kangaroos. We need to give the home nations more tests and once in a while a high level SH test. That will nullify the attractiveness of GB for non-English players. And develop the home nations teams giving them high level experience on the international stage in this football code.

Realistically though playing in GB gives the Scottish and Welsh lads a higher level to play at (and win). So long as it is complementary to the Home nations I don't see the problem.

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2 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

We need to nullify what makes GB attractive and finally put it to the sword. And at the moment what makes it attractive for the small number of welsh and Scottish players that make the squad is that they get to play against top quality opposition like the Kiwis and Kangaroos. We need to give the home nations more tests and once in a while a high level SH test. That will nullify the attractiveness of GB for non-English players. And develop the home nations teams giving them high level experience on the international stage in this football code.

Those are fair points, and if there was thriving international scene with an extensive programme of meaningful internationals for all teams, then I agree that there wouldn't really be a need for GB. However, I think this scenario that you envisage is probably some way down the track, as we're currently struggling to get the Aussies to commit to playing games against England, let alone Wales.

I think GB could act as a stepping stone to the scenario that you outline above. The challenge is how to get Wales up to a level where the likes of Australia will want to play them.

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The likelihood of Wales or Scotland independently organising major events like tours to the Pacific is unlikely in the short to medium term. Fine, let the RFL through GB every 4 years give their players that opportunity - on the proviso the players commit to representing Wales and Scotland etc. and the RFL who seem intent on including GB commit to guaranteeing Wales and Scotland test matches against England.

As Tommygilf points out, a GB tour can give Welsh and Scottish players an opportunity to experience 'big games'* providing they commit to their home nation. This will consequently strengthen those nations, helping them to be more competitive against England and consequently strengthening the international game.

*Can be read in a Steve McLaren voice

 

 

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11 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Those are fair points, and if there was thriving international scene with an extensive programme of meaningful internationals for all teams, then I agree that there wouldn't really be a need for GB. However, I think this scenario that you envisage is probably some way down the track, as we're currently struggling to get the Aussies to commit to playing games against England, let alone Wales.

I think GB could act as a stepping stone to the scenario that you outline above. The challenge is how to get Wales up to a level where the likes of Australia will want to play them.

As Tommygilf points out, a GB tour can give Welsh and Scottish players an opportunity to experience 'big games'* providing they commit to their home nation. This will consequently strengthen those nations, helping them to be more competitive against England and consequently strengthening the international game.

*Can be read in a Steve McLaren voice

 

 

I totally agree. Another aspect is that for those that are English but would qualify on heritage, like myself for example (or at a higher level Ben Currie, Stevie Ward, Brad Singleton, the list goes on), for Wales, Scotland or Ireland, they would be more likely to choose the tier 2 nation over England as GB gives them the opportunity for the full blooded pinnacle of the game test match. This is obviously in absence of a mass shift of players like for Tonga.

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27 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I totally agree. Another aspect is that for those that are English but would qualify on heritage, like myself for example (or at a higher level Ben Currie, Stevie Ward, Brad Singleton, the list goes on), for Wales, Scotland or Ireland, they would be more likely to choose the tier 2 nation over England as GB gives them the opportunity for the full blooded pinnacle of the game test match. This is obviously in absence of a mass shift of players like for Tonga.

Yes if these heritage players knew that every year they would be guaranteed high profile games through an annual Euro Champs including including England, with selection for at stake World Cups or GB Lions tours at the end of the season, then my guess is that it would encourage more to make themselves available for Wales, Scotland and Ireland. This would instantly make these nations more competitive. As it stands, these players have no option but to commit to England if they aspire to any meaningful international career.

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2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Yes if these heritage players knew that every year they would be guaranteed high profile games through an annual Euro Champs including including England, with selection for at stake World Cups or GB Lions tours at the end of the season, then my guess is that it would encourage more to make themselves available for Wales, Scotland and Ireland. This would instantly make these nations more competitive. As it stands, these players have no option but to commit to England if they aspire to any meaningful international career.

And therein lies the issue. 

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Realistically though playing in GB gives the Scottish and Welsh lads a higher level to play at (and win). So long as it is complementary to the Home nations I don't see the problem.

Only  small number of them though

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6 hours ago, Scubby said:

The almost none existent vibe around this GB tour shows it. 

I think that's a completely disingenuous claim.

Are you seriously suggesting that if England were playing instead of GB, that there would be a lot more interest in this tour? If so, I don't agree at all.

I think the reason why there isn't a huge vibe about the tour is because it's not for any specific purpose. It's not a series, it's not a tri nations or four nations, and we're not even playing Australia. That's why there's a lack of excitement, and nothing to do with it being GB instead of England.

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6 hours ago, Scubby said:

The only time these guys ever got to play international rugby in Wales was for Wales. GB didn't give a #### about actually playing across GB. In all those decades it never played a test outside the M62 or London.

I agree that they probably could and should have done more, but it's probably unfair to say they didn't give a damn about it. That's a negative and accusatory thing to say. Maybe the administrators at the time just felt that with limited matches, it made more sense to play the games in places where most of the fans were. And let's not forget that we're talking about pre-internet days, so it was much harder to market something than it is now.

With the above in mind, I favour GB being brought back and a game being played at the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.

 

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27 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I think that's a completely disingenuous claim.

Are you seriously suggesting that if England were playing instead of GB, that there would be a lot more interest in this tour? If so, I don't agree at all.

I think the reason why there isn't a huge vibe about the tour is because it's not for any specific purpose. It's not a series, it's not a tri nations or four nations, and we're not even playing Australia. That's why there's a lack of excitement, and nothing to do with it being GB instead of England.

England was completely suffocated by 3 years trying to plan a stupid GB tour which the Aussies didn't want and many fans didn't either. It has then turned into this hotch potch of a mess which is a saving face exercise. It is going to lose a lot of money to boot and a few hundred fans are going to make the trip!

Had it been shelved, you would open up the possibility of England playing something like a home test against France, plus a 3 game test series at home against a team like Tonga. Actually building up to a World Cup we are trying to win! I have no doubt we could have filled 25k+ venues for this and actually done something positive for international RL here, as well as advertise the biggest RL show on earth (which is coming here in just 2 years).

In the end we decide to have 2 years without a home international. What idiot planned that?

Edited by Scubby
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26 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I agree that they probably could and should have done more, but it's probably unfair to say they didn't give a damn about it. That's a negative and accusatory thing to say. Maybe the administrators at the time just felt that with limited matches, it made more sense to play the games in places where most of the fans were. And let's not forget that we're talking about pre-internet days, so it was much harder to market something than it is now.

With the above in mind, I favour GB being brought back and a game being played at the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.

 

They have had 80 years to play a GB game outside the M62 or London and they chose not to. Welsh players were on their doorstep so they used them to bolster the national team. Up until the 1990s there wasn't even an Irish, Scottish or Wales RL body. I loved watching GB back in the day, of course I did, I grew up on the M62 - everything was on my doorstep without having to do anything. 

They have brought GB back and stuck 2 fingers up at Ireland. How inward is that? I guess they don't give a #### about the backstop, or anything outside the heartlands.

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1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Those are fair points, and if there was thriving international scene with an extensive programme of meaningful internationals for all teams, then I agree that there wouldn't really be a need for GB. However, I think this scenario that you envisage is probably some way down the track, as we're currently struggling to get the Aussies to commit to playing games against England, let alone Wales.

I think GB could act as a stepping stone to the scenario that you outline above. The challenge is how to get Wales up to a level where the likes of Australia will want to play them.

As Tommygilf points out, a GB tour can give Welsh and Scottish players an opportunity to experience 'big games'* providing they commit to their home nation. This will consequently strengthen those nations, helping them to be more competitive against England and consequently strengthening the international game.

*Can be read in a Steve McLaren voice

 

 

Australia did want to play though but just not at the place and year GB wanted. A stepping stone for who the 5 odd players from wales that make it. That won't get the Welsh rugby league team keeping respectable scores at world cups.

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25 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

A stepping stone for who the 5 odd players from wales that make it. That won't get the Welsh rugby league team keeping respectable scores at world cups.

What do you think can be done to get the Welsh team competitive with the likes of England, Australia, and New Zealand?

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1 hour ago, 17 stone giant said:

I think that's a completely disingenuous claim.

Are you seriously suggesting that if England were playing instead of GB, that there would be a lot more interest in this tour? If so, I don't agree at all.

I think the reason why there isn't a huge vibe about the tour is because it's not for any specific purpose. It's not a series, it's not a tri nations or four nations, and we're not even playing Australia. That's why there's a lack of excitement, and nothing to do with it being GB instead of England.

There would be a huge buzz an England game is more marketable than Great Britain 

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1 minute ago, 17 stone giant said:

What do you think can be done to get the Welsh team competitive with the likes of England, Australia, and New Zealand?

That will never happen unless the NRL poach tons of union players like they do in New Zealand. But they can potentially get a respectable scorelines and an occasional blow out if they play more tests and have better professional pathways for the code in Wales.

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The main point of contention is whether we play as Great Britain or as England in major international events (ie: the world cup).

If it is called Great Britain then maybe some wouldn't want to play or give their support for such a team yet if the team was called England then that could also alienate many others from outside that country's boundaries.

If the four home nations were fielded separately does anyone really believe that at least three of them would have any chance of success ?

However even if there was just one superstar from Ireland, Scotland or Wales then he could add strength to a Great Britain side whereas otherwise a pure England team might also struggle.

We compete as Great Britain in the Olympics and I can't really recall anyone refusing to appear just because it isn't "their" country.

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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2 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

That will never happen unless the NRL poach tons of union players like they do in New Zealand. But they can potentially get a respectable scorelines and an occasional blow out if they play more tests and have better professional pathways for the code in Wales.

But who do you envisage them playing tests against, and what would constitute a better professional pathway? You've pooh-poohed the idea of GB as a stepping stone to help the home nations improve, but haven't really suggested any plausible alternatives.

At present, I'm more inclined to base my views on what players such as Ben Flower have said about GB, and how it could positively impact the pathway for Welsh players. Unfortunately you haven't really provided any alternative arguments to convince me otherwise. I'm open minded and would welcome other ideas though.

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1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

We compete as Great Britain in the Olympics and I can't really recall anyone refusing to appear just because it isn't "their" country.

Is that because Great Britain isn’t anyone’s country?

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