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deluded pom?

Atlanta Rhinos Withdraw from USARL Playoffs

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On 27/07/2019 at 11:40, DoubleD said:

Not good, particularly when they were one of the strongest 

The article even said that when that new Atlanta MLR team kick off their numbers will continue to dip. And they gotta compete with sevens too unless the season moves to late summer. Iv'e been saying this for a while we need to compete directly with rugby union in new expansion areas instead of piggy backing off them it will only take you so far. Toronto is prime example of this down to two clubs previously had 4 even though they have the pack (who do a great job at providing exposure to rugby league). We need to begin the codewar in North America because lets admit it, it's been a long time coming.

It will only make us stronger. USRL season must move their season at the same time as the 15 man game and have 9s at the same time as 7s. Compete directly with the private school code show them who the superior code is and that we aren't scared of them, we don't need them. Rugby league can and should stand on it's own two feet. Will we lose numbers yes but we will actually be stronger because we have true rugby league people playing and staying. Not unionists looking to keep fit.

Places like New Zealand have a strong tight rugby league community even though it competes directly with union. It's the same in Australia but vice versa. Union compete directly with league but the code is still being played. I'm seeing both USA and Canada facing the same issue. The over reliability on rugby union has in fact done more damage to the game than actual benefit. We can not outgrow union if we are reliant on them. It's time we stand on our own two feet.

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3 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

The article even said that when that new Atlanta MLR team kick off their numbers will continue to dip. And they gotta compete with sevens too unless the season moves to late summer. Iv'e been saying this for a while we need to compete directly with rugby union in new expansion areas instead of piggy backing off them it will only take you so far. Toronto is prime example of this down to two clubs previously had 4 even though they have the pack (who do a great job at providing exposure to rugby league). We need to begin the codewar in North America because lets admit it, it's been a long time coming.

It will only make us stronger. USRL season must move their season at the same time as the 15 man game and have 9s at the same time as 7s. Compete directly with the private school code show them who the superior code is and that we aren't scared of them, we don't need them. Rugby league can and should stand on it's own two feet. Will we lose numbers yes but we will actually be stronger because we have true rugby league people playing and staying. Not unionists looking to keep fit.

Places like New Zealand have a strong tight rugby league community even though it competes directly with union. It's the same in Australia but vice versa. Union compete directly with league but the code is still being played. I'm seeing both USA and Canada facing the same issue. The over reliability on rugby union has in fact done more damage to the game than actual benefit. We can not outgrow union if we are reliant on them. It's time we stand on our own two feet.

I agree we are over reliant on union in USA at the moment and should look to reduce this but I don’t think it’s prudent to start a code war there when we’re so weak 

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9 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I agree we are over reliant on union in USA at the moment and should look to reduce this but I don’t think it’s prudent to start a code war there when we’re so weak 

We have no choice. It needs to happen for league to be truly free from union in NA. I'm tired of seeing league clubs suck up to union clubs by promoting their events, sponsoring union tours and events. I'm not stupid I get why you do it you have to do it because you draw players from union clubs and use union players, so marketing. The wolfpack do the same thing most people at their games are union fans so are those little kids playing touch at halftime they come from the junior union clubs. But don't you see why people in the heartlands find it odd RL in NA is so reliant on union it must actively suck up to it and keep it happy. Yet most union clubs will never do the same for league.

League sooner or later needs to be able to stand on it's own two feet in NA and currently the only place in NA where it is doing that is Jamaica. A code war will finally force those involved in league to be fully  committed to Independence and no longer relying on union. Just the way we want it. I'm not being anti union but league must have it's own separate community to union in north america. 

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1 minute ago, Themusician_2 said:

We have no choice. It needs to happen for league to be truly free from union in NA. I'm tired of seeing league clubs suck up to union clubs by promoting their events, sponsoring union tours and events. I'm not stupid I get why you do it you have to do it because you draw players from union clubs and use union players, so marketing. The wolfpack do the same thing most people at their games are union fans so are those little kids playing touch at halftime they come from the junior union clubs. But don't you see why people in the heartlands find it odd RL in NA is so reliant on union it must actively suck up to it and keep it happy. Yet most union clubs will never do the same for league.

League sooner or later needs to be able to stand on it's own two feet in NA and currently the only place in NA where it is doing that is Jamaica. A code war will finally force those involved in league to be fully  committed to Independence and no longer relying on union. Just the way we want it. I'm not being anti union but league must have it's own separate community to union in north america. 

I agree with the principle and it is on a strong enough foothold to do so in Canada with the Wolfpack and hopefully Ottawa acting as the fore-bearers. 

We don’t currently have that luxury in USA. If New York make it, then it should be feasible to put that in place in the NE off the back of that. Chicago could feed into the Canadian scene in Ontario but travel over long distances will always be an issue for amateurs 

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3 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I agree with the principle and it is on a strong enough foothold to do so in Canada with the Wolfpack and hopefully Ottawa acting as the fore-bearers. 

We don’t currently have that luxury in USA. If New York make it, then it should be feasible to put that in place in the NE off the back of that. Chicago could feed into the Canadian scene in Ontario but travel over long distances will always be an issue for amateurs 

Yet the number of clubs in Ontario declined with the pack there are 2 clubs and I guarantee you they made up of union players which is why we cannot grow more. There is union ceiling preventing it. Do you think union clubs and players will sit there and watch league grow? I don't think so.

The USA does have the luxury. You need to tell your club players to choose  league over union and move the season to the winter-spring to compete directly with it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

Yet the number of clubs in Ontario declined with the pack there are 2 clubs and I guarantee you they made up of union players which is why we cannot grow more. There is union ceiling preventing it. Do you think union clubs and players will sit there and watch league grow? I don't think so.

The USA does have the luxury. You need to tell your club players to choose  league over union and move the season to the winter-spring to compete directly with it.

 

It’ll take time to build up in Ontario and needs to start with youngsters. It won’t happen overnight. There aren’t a load of ‘league’ players out there 

If the USA did that, nearly all the clubs would fold as its not attractive enough and then there wouldn’t be enough clubs to have a league 

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16 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

It’ll take time to build up in Ontario and needs to start with youngsters. It won’t happen overnight. There aren’t a load of ‘league’ players out there 

If the USA did that, nearly all the clubs would fold as its not attractive enough and then there wouldn’t be enough clubs to have a league 

All those wolfpack parents put their kids in union clubs or just letting them play touch. It's depressing the Canadians don't seem to mind it too. They view union and league as almost the same sport. It's so annoying probably one of the main reasons why we haven't fully capitalized on the exposure the pack has brought.

If that's the case then RL in the USA is a lot less developed than I thought. So all the usarl clubs will fold do to the fact most players would rather play union than league. Wouldn't' it be better to just target gridiron players instead of union players for growth they'll enjoy the free movement of our sport. And they'll most importantly be league players not unionists.

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2 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

All those wolfpack parents put their kids in union clubs or just letting them play touch. It's depressing the Canadians don't seem to mind it too. They view union and league as almost the same sport. It's so annoying probably one of the main reasons why we haven't fully capitalized on the exposure the pack has brought.

If that's the case then RL in the USA is a lot less developed than I thought. So all the usarl clubs will fold do to the fact most players would rather play union than league. Wouldn't' it be better to just target gridiron players instead of union players for growth they'll enjoy the free movement of our sport. And they'll most importantly be league players not unionists.

There are league clubs developing in Canada but you can’t expect it to happen overnight. Ottawa will help. 

Sadly I think that’s the case in the US. I agree that perhaps we should target non union players 

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3 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

There are league clubs developing in Canada but you can’t expect it to happen overnight. Ottawa will help

Sadly I think that’s the case in the US. I agree that perhaps we should target non union players 

And they wanted rlwc even though they don't have the infrastructure to capitalise on it. Glad it ain't happening it would've simply benefited the rival code.

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11 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

And they wanted rlwc even though they don't have the infrastructure to capitalise on it. Glad it ain't happening it would've simply benefited the rival code.

They might still get it yet. 

I think the US will only work with a top down model and in that instance, a World Cup may benefit it

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22 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

They might still get it yet. 

I think the US will only work with a top down model and in that instance, a World Cup may benefit it

How will it benefit? You'll get the exposure then what?

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45 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

How will it benefit? You'll get the exposure then what?

It will be the catalyst for grass roots development. The Americans only really care about top level elite sport. Trying to grow a sport there from bottom up is very difficult in a crowded marketplace. It needs elite clubs like hopefully New York and others to initiate that off the back of their success 

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13 hours ago, DoubleD said:

It will be the catalyst for grass roots development. The Americans only really care about top level elite sport. Trying to grow a sport there from bottom up is very difficult in a crowded marketplace. It needs elite clubs like hopefully New York and others to initiate that off the back of their success 

So how did union grow in the USA since they only got their "elite" competition a year ago? Dude there are people playing Australian football in North america than rugby league. Its absolute depressing. I'm starting to question if the right side won in that USA rugby league split. Again so what happens after the world cup happen? Are new fans just going to find their nearest "rugby" club. Then they'll simply be lost to union. In Toronto rugby league didn't grow it lost two teams. Now this brings me to the point I want to make . Don't promote rugby league as just rugby(union) or else we will end up with ceiling over our heads. I've seen worldwide that piggybacking off of union long term is unsustainable. I'm tired of our game being treated as unions little brother.

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44 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

So how did union grow in the USA since they only got their "elite" competition a year ago? Dude there are people playing Australian football in North america than rugby league. Its absolute depressing. I'm starting to question if the right side won in that USA rugby league split. Again so what happens after the world cup happen? Are new fans just going to find their nearest "rugby" club. Then they'll simply be lost to union. In Toronto rugby league didn't grow it lost two teams. Now this brings me to the point I want to make . Don't promote rugby league as just rugby(union) or else we will end up with ceiling over our heads. I've seen worldwide that piggybacking off of union long term is unsustainable. I'm tired of our game being treated as unions little brother.

Toronto has only been going just over 2 years, it needs and takes time to develop. This is the problem, everyone expects short term benefits but it doesn’t happen overnight. 

Union has been working for years at grass roots and still struggle. I just think the top down approach will work better in USA. An elite club which helps stimulate and grow a grass roots base from it. It’s happened in Melbourne and to some extent in Newcastle in UK. It doesn’t happen overnight though 

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3 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Toronto has only been going just over 2 years, it needs and takes time to develop. This is the problem, everyone expects short term benefits but it doesn’t happen overnight. 

Union has been working for years at grass roots and still struggle. I just think the top down approach will work better in USA. An elite club which helps stimulate and grow a grass roots base from it. It’s happened in Melbourne and to some extent in Newcastle in UK. It doesn’t happen overnight though 

Toronto have been there for two years yet the number of clubs declined in Toronto they didn't stay the same or increase. And league has been played long before the Wolfpack came as well. And it's all because the Canadians want to suck up to union and promote the codes as the same thing .And now we being punished for it. Are unionists ever going to put league first? Never.

You didn't answer my question how did union grow without an elite club? Why can't rugby league do the same? Why are there more people playing Australian Rules football than rugby league in the United States? It's simple Australian Rules football and rugby union don't over rely on another sport to keep it afloat. Which is what rugby league in North America is doing and our game is trapped in a vicious cycle. League has been played in the USA for years it's gone backward since the split and clearly never recovered from it. Melbourne rugby league clubs don't rely on union to keep it a float. And league is the dominant code in Australia so to compare North american expansion to Melbourne storm expansion is a bit of a stretch.

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6 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

Toronto have been there for two years yet the number of clubs declined in Toronto they didn't stay the same or increase. And league has been played long before the Wolfpack came as well. And it's all because the Canadians want to suck up to union and promote the codes as the same thing .And now we being punished for it. Are unionists ever going to put league first? Never.

You didn't answer my question how did union grow without an elite club? Why can't rugby league do the same? Why are there more people playing Australian Rules football than rugby league in the United States? It's simple Australian Rules football and rugby union don't over rely on another sport to keep it afloat. Which is what rugby league in North America is doing and our game is trapped in a vicious cycle. League has been played in the USA for years it's gone backward since the split and clearly never recovered from it. Melbourne rugby league clubs don't rely on union to keep it a float. And league is the dominant code in Australia so to compare North american expansion to Melbourne storm expansion is a bit of a stretch.

We’re going around in circles here. 

Union already has that space in the US market. Feel free to try and replicate what they’ve done but it will take a long time, a lot of money and union barely even registers in the US market so it’s hardly something to aspire to. 

League was pretty much non existent in Melbourne before they came along and the same in Newcastle. 

Toronto can do more but I’m willing to give them time and will judge them after 10 years, not 2. 

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8 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

So how did union grow in the USA since they only got their "elite" competition a year ago? Dude there are people playing Australian football in North america than rugby league. Its absolute depressing. I'm starting to question if the right side won in that USA rugby league split. Again so what happens after the world cup happen? Are new fans just going to find their nearest "rugby" club. Then they'll simply be lost to union. In Toronto rugby league didn't grow it lost two teams. Now this brings me to the point I want to make . Don't promote rugby league as just rugby(union) or else we will end up with ceiling over our heads. I've seen worldwide that piggybacking off of union long term is unsustainable. I'm tired of our game being treated as unions little brother.

Hi, 

Let me weigh in as in American. 

RU existed here, with no following seriously, for 100+ years an amateur sport (even winning the 1924 Olympics). No profile whatsoever. The clubs, not the financially ruined USA Rugby, got together and started a semi-pro competition and it's gotten some traction. It's still a tiny, niche thing that few know about that averages 2k per game (that's lowest rung minor league baseball numbers). 

Nobody will be "lost" to union. People here (as they do in Canada) will support both because that's how our sports culture is. Keep your code war nonsense overseas. Amateur teams closing down in Canada or in the US is down to how hard it is to run any kind of amateur sports on this continent. Amateur, grassroots growth does nothing here. There was no hockey in Arizona or Nashville, TN before the NHL came to town, now it's played in both non-traditional places. 

Soccer was grassroots, amateur, and nowhere here from 1984 (death of NASL) until the 1994 World Cup and the 1996 start of Major League Soccer. Now after 20+ years, soccer is one of our major sports with soccer stadiums from one end of the nation to the other and everywhere in between. 

Give up this "we have to fight union" idea. Union isn't fighting you here, nobody cares. We expect all our teams to support each other, so if say the Arrows began to attack the Wolfpack or RUNY started to talk about NYCRL it would turn off fans and the media. 

Aussie rules football here is played by the Aussie expats who come here to work and a smattering of Americans. If I didn't date an Aussie in NYC for 5 years I wouldn't even know it exists here. Nobody knows. 

The only thing that will grow the game here in the United States (and up in Canada) is professional teams. That's it. It'll be 15 years before you see North Americans playing, just like it took 20 before the Melbourne Storm turned out a Victorian. 

Edited by Onieda FC
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On 27/07/2019 at 02:23, deluded pom? said:

The average attendance for USARL is between 50 to 200 people. Friends and family. We need professional teams in a serious, professional competition. I have nothing but respect for those who put in their time and money into it, but it's  not going anywhere as an amateur, small time sport with a handful of teams on one coast. It's also a mess. USARL barely updates it's Twitter or Instagram. They haven't done anything to announce USA's inclusion in the World 9's on their social media. It's bananas. There's no unified YouTube channel to catch games, it's all done piecemeal by the teams- who are again hand-to-mouth amateur operations. 

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On 27/07/2019 at 10:40, DoubleD said:

Not good, particularly when they were one of the strongest 

I suspect it has something to do with the (former?) head of Atlanta Rhinos becoming involved with the Atlanta MLR club.

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Ah! 

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19 minutes ago, Chamey said:

I suspect it has something to do with the (former?) head of Atlanta Rhinos becoming involved with the Atlanta MLR club.

Hard to fault him when your options are a semi-professional league with aspirations of going fully pro, that has 2 TV deals, versus an amateur competition that claims to be semi-pro but can barely be that, and hardly get it's games onto YouTube. 

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