WHATS GOING ON AT ODSAL

[Lowdesert]

34 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

We have an opportunity to make the ground into a multi purpose stadium, including the area behind it. Yes investment of some means is needed but it doesn't have to be a new stadium. Odsal has countless buildings as you enter the ground near the top. Surely one of them can be converted to increase revenue streams for events? Dogs has been mentioned plus we have Speedway and Stock Cars as options. What do the council really want with odsal??? In addition why can't BPA move in with us? Have a Union team play in winter. Is it really that hard to increase the usage at odsal?

 

 

 

Are you serious?

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

On 01/08/2019 at 10:58, DoubleD said:

It’s rather sad that it’s got to the stage that the RFL has to babysit clubs and their finances re. whether they can afford to bring players in. 

I think once the clubs started being given the sky funds rather than generate their own income it created the conditions for the wrong people to come into the sport.

We have a shockingly low caliber of individuals now running clubs, particularly at a lower level.

In the past people had business acumen and could bring their own resources to the sport.

Too many chancers and fantasists in the sport.  To be blunt at times liars.

If you can say the correct things anyone could end up heading up a professional club.

 At the moment its getting like universal credit with the reality being some people are not able to manage their own finances reliably.

I think we need the RFL to keep checks and balances to survive at this moment in time.

Also the RFL needs to be transparent while engaging in these activities.

 

 

 

[Oxford]

I hate these kind of times and problems along with concern for another club and its fans there's recriminations, finger pointing and a blame game. Dissection is naff !

Let's hope it gets sorted quickly, Bulls' fans need that.

[JohnM]

4 hours ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

I think once the clubs started being given the sky funds rather than generate their own income it created the conditions for the wrong people to come into the sport.

We have a shockingly low caliber of individuals now running clubs, particularly at a lower level.

In the past people had business acumen and could bring their own resources to the sport.

Too many chancers and fantasists in the sport.  To be blunt at times liars.

If you can say the correct things anyone could end up heading up a professional club.

 At the moment its getting like universal credit with the reality being some people are not able to manage their own finances reliably.

I think we need the RFL to keep checks and balances to survive at this moment in time.

Also the RFL needs to be transparent while engaging in these activities.

 

 

 

The clubs though do generate their own income. The income from broadcasting rights is at the level it  is because of the collective efforts of the clubs. Nor is it enough to run a club, which is why gate receipts, sponsorship etc is still vital. 

 

[Lowdesert]

4 hours ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

I think once the clubs started being given the sky funds rather than generate their own income it created the conditions for the wrong people to come into the sport.

We have a shockingly low caliber of individuals now running clubs, particularly at a lower level.

In the past people had business acumen and could bring their own resources to the sport.

Too many chancers and fantasists in the sport.  To be blunt at times liars.

If you can say the correct things anyone could end up heading up a professional club.

 At the moment its getting like universal credit with the reality being some people are not able to manage their own finances reliably.

I think we need the RFL to keep checks and balances to survive at this moment in time.

Also the RFL needs to be transparent while engaging in these activities.

 

 

 

Wood was championing ‘transparency’.  We saw some but not so sure we saw all.  He seemed to fit the word into whatever suited, in between ‘compelling’ which Ralph’s adopted.

But I’m far from convinced it was better pre 95.  Clubs, allegedly, miscounting on the gate of CC games, alledged backhanded payments and how many really, alledgedly, bothered with the stadia?

Yorkshire Post wrote about the Sky money “Having secured them a lucrative contract, Lindsay sat back as the clubs frittered much of it away with obscene payments to players who were worth a fraction of what they received. Not only were the lunatics allowed to take over the asylum, they were given the key to the safe in the process.

“People forget that the legislation I put in said 50 per cent of the News Corporation money had to be spent on facilities, 20 per cent on youth policies and only 30 per cent on players,” said Lindsay. “Clubs like Wigan, Leeds and St Helens were massive culprits, they threw money around like confetti and spent none of it on their facilities. Some of the clubs were deplorably run and it was heart-breaking to see.”

“We made a lot of mistakes – I made a lot of mistakes – but it was all worth it in the end,” he said. “We just couldn’t go on playing mediocre rugby in poor facilities and charging people good money for it.”.

Seem to remember Steve saying Dewsbury still owed him money.

Some Clubs have had the opportunity to make things better, just the same as they did years ago, and have made different choices.  Short termism which was no different to Clubs in the past, who didn’t have full time players to pay either yet had bigger attendances going through the gate.  It’s not all so cut and dried.

[Mumby Magic]

5 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Are you serious?

Why not? The council say they are struggling for money yet stay sat on Odsal for years? Why don't they sell it. Plus what bit were you asking am I serious? Compare it some SL grounds and it won't come bottom. Large parts of the ground need updating for sure but there aren't many that have a facility like the Southbank. We have a 4000 fan base. Surely some of these have a trade that can help improve things short term.

Knock down the Touchdown, and boxes at the top. Utilise the buildings at the top. Open your mind a bit bud.

[Lowdesert]

12 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Why not? The council say they are struggling for money yet stay sat on Odsal for years? Why don't they sell it. Plus what bit were you asking am I serious? Compare it some SL grounds and it won't come bottom. Large parts of the ground need updating for sure but there aren't many that have a facility like the Southbank. We have a 4000 fan base. Surely some of these have a trade that can help improve things short term.

Knock down the Touchdown, and boxes at the top. Utilise the buildings at the top. Open your mind a bit bud.

I’ve got an open mind but refurbing old buildings is far from easy and in many cases far from cost effective.  I would imagine the Bulls have done some feasibility at some stage and the hard facts have been costly.

Firstly, your suggestion to knock down an older bit in order to be able to utilise an old bit doesn’t make commercial sense to a club in desperation.  Secondly, there will be heaps of engineering and planning resource to fund.  I doubt the club could even afford those.

Iirc Keith Mumby is a joiner so there’s a start but the ancillary and build costs would mitigate the savings of using Keith by quite a bit.

[Mumby Magic]

Agreed. However we have a club that averages 4000 in the championship. Where do we go? We moved to VP in the Bulls "pomp" and lost 2500 fans and we won a title that year. Horsfall? Where else? The only two which make any sense - if at all!! - are Halifax or Keighley. Is that going to happen? I doubt it.

I cast the question again to others, why haven't the council released/sold the freehold ever? What's keeping them from doing it?

 

[paul hicks]

49 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Agreed. However we have a club that averages 4000 in the championship. Where do we go? We moved to VP in the Bulls "pomp" and lost 2500 fans and we won a title that year. Horsfall? Where else? The only two which make any sense - if at all!! - are Halifax or Keighley. Is that going to happen? I doubt it.

I cast the question again to others, why haven't the council released/sold the freehold ever? What's keeping them from doing it?

 

well chambers recons he has been in talks with Dewsbury so that would seem to be were he is heading . that of course s if we actually believe all his bluster is not just hot air trying to panic people.

personally I don't think the bulls will move because he knows he cant really get a better all round deal anywhere else given he wont make any money off the field on match days and would more than likely lose a good number of supporters.

perhaps he needs to make a few internal cuts to save money and yes if that includes scaling down the A team then so be it. although I'm sure other internal cuts can be made 

[TrueBull]

1 hour ago, paul hicks said:

well chambers recons he has been in talks with Dewsbury so that would seem to be were he is heading . that of course s if we actually believe all his bluster is not just hot air trying to panic people.

personally I don't think the bulls will move because he knows he cant really get a better all round deal anywhere else given he wont make any money off the field on match days and would more than likely lose a good number of supporters.

perhaps he needs to make a few internal cuts to save money and yes if that includes scaling down the A team then so be it. although I'm sure other internal cuts can be made 

Eh? I think we’re as efficient as we can be. He’ll have done the numbers. Say Dewsbury will charge us £5k per game for 15 games? We’ll immediately save about £500k expenditure. As long as we don’t lose £500k of income, it’s worth exploring. 

[paul hicks]

48 minutes ago, TrueBull said:

Eh? I think we’re as efficient as we can be. He’ll have done the numbers. Say Dewsbury will charge us £5k per game for 15 games? We’ll immediately save about £500k expenditure. As long as we don’t lose £500k of income, it’s worth exploring. 

say they charge £10k a game and of course the bulls need to find somewhere to train and have offices to say nothing of somewhere to sell merchandise from and then take into account they make no money off the beer and burgers ect and its starting to hold up. perhaps you have a thousand less going to games as they don't want to move out of Bradford so that then needs to be factored in. then of course were do the academy and the A team train and play because that's yet another cost.  all of a sudden its starting to mount up and of course do you keep all your sponsors when you move out of town now that could be costly.

last west Yorkshire club I heard of that moved away from its own area when it moved grounds was bramley . jst saying .

perhaps if he gives himself a big pay cut that may help

[Mumby Magic]

1 hour ago, TrueBull said:

Eh? I think we’re as efficient as we can be. He’ll have done the numbers. Say Dewsbury will charge us £5k per game for 15 games? We’ll immediately save about £500k expenditure. As long as we don’t lose £500k of income, it’s worth exploring. 

Nope. I'll go wherever but many won't. I'm sick of hearing "I used to go" like it's some sort of I'm a Bulls Fan recognition. If you kept going maybe we wouldn't be in the last 10 years predicament. Some of my fave times as a Northern or Bulls fan has been in the last 3 years! Support the club not where we play,,.

[paul hicks]

6 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Nope. I'll go wherever but many won't. I'm sick of hearing "I used to go" like it's some sort of I'm a Bulls Fan recognition. If you kept going maybe we wouldn't be in the last 10 years predicament. Some of my fave times as a Northern or Bulls fan has been in the last 3 years! Support the club not where we play,,.

if they do move to say Dewsbury will they ever be able to move back into Bradford?. now that's a question worth asking in my opinion because charming is playing poker with bradfords future and could then walk away

 this is the guy who jumped ship on the new Zealand rl in 2008 with tales of a budget blow out and his time at Salford is not covered in glory .. he has precious few friends among owners with his attacks on them in the press either.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

6 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Wood was championing ‘transparency’.  We saw some but not so sure we saw all.  He seemed to fit the word into whatever suited, in between ‘compelling’ which Ralph’s adopted.

But I’m far from convinced it was better pre 95.  Clubs, allegedly, miscounting on the gate of CC games, alledged backhanded payments and how many really, alledgedly, bothered with the stadia?

Yorkshire Post wrote about the Sky money “Having secured them a lucrative contract, Lindsay sat back as the clubs frittered much of it away with obscene payments to players who were worth a fraction of what they received. Not only were the lunatics allowed to take over the asylum, they were given the key to the safe in the process.

“People forget that the legislation I put in said 50 per cent of the News Corporation money had to be spent on facilities, 20 per cent on youth policies and only 30 per cent on players,” said Lindsay. “Clubs like Wigan, Leeds and St Helens were massive culprits, they threw money around like confetti and spent none of it on their facilities. Some of the clubs were deplorably run and it was heart-breaking to see.”

“We made a lot of mistakes – I made a lot of mistakes – but it was all worth it in the end,” he said. “We just couldn’t go on playing mediocre rugby in poor facilities and charging people good money for it.”.

Seem to remember Steve saying Dewsbury still owed him money.

Some Clubs have had the opportunity to make things better, just the same as they did years ago, and have made different choices.  Short termism which was no different to Clubs in the past, who didn’t have full time players to pay either yet had bigger attendances going through the gate.  It’s not all so cut and dried.

Your right it was bad, but now its worse.

But how many clubs can support themselves if TV money went and how go back to generating their own income.

More to the point how many clubs have the right people at them.

The issue is the here and now.  Can clubs be trusted to run themselves.

 

 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

6 hours ago, JohnM said:

The clubs though do generate their own income. The income from broadcasting rights is at the level it  is because of the collective efforts of the clubs. Nor is it enough to run a club, which is why gate receipts, sponsorship etc is still vital. 

 

I seriously doubt the gate receipts of some clubs cover match day costs.

Mainly because of conversations I have had with CEO's and Chairmen who have told me they have not, would have preferred for commercial reason not to have played certain fixtures.

Clubs have too easily surrendered assets and looked at on field gains and fantasy land criteria.

Lets sell an old profitable ground and move into a nice non-revenue generating shiny new stadium that will cost a small fortune we don't have.

 

[Bcfc2014]

People seem to be saying Chalmers is doing this to get a rent reduction, even if that was successful the yearly upkeep of Odsal is 300k+, 

[paul hicks]

26 minutes ago, Bcfc2014 said:

People seem to be saying Chalmers is doing this to get a rent reduction, even if that was successful the yearly upkeep of Odsal is 300k+, 

that's not really much im sure some clubs pay more out than that .

 

[Hemel Stag]

I have just been purchased an old programme; the Rugby League Challenge Cup Competition, Final Tie, Bradford Northern v Halifax, Wembley, Saturday May the 7th 1949. There's lots of interesting things about it, but here are the notes provided about the Bradford RL Team:

Bradford Create Wembley History (by Earnest Cawthorne)

In the official handbook of the Rugby Football League it is recorded that in 1898 Bradford were runners-up in the Challenge Cup to Batley, beat Salford to win the trophy in 1906, won the League Championship in 1903-4 and were runners-up to Oldham in 1904-5.

But that Bradford, which was one of the original members of the Northern Union, is not the present Bradford Northern now creating history by making their third successive appearance in a Wembley final.

The original Bradford played at Park Avenue and when, in 1907, it was decided to vacate it because of a financial loss the previous season, it was a staggering blow to the game's prestige.

There had been envy that the soccer club, Bradford City, should be doing so well at Valley Parade where, incidentally, another well-known Northern Union club, then defunct Manningham, had had its headquarters. It was decided to quit the Northern Union and efforts made to return to the Rugby Union. This move failed and Bradford applied to the Football League, were accepted and played in the Southern League for one season. That is still the Bradford soccer club.

The present Bradford Northern club was formed in 1907 and after a season at Dudley Hill, played at Birch Lane until September 1st, 1934, when they moved to the Odsal Stadium. Northern finished the 1907-8 season 12th in the League table, and it was their best performance for many a long year.

Kept Flag Flying

Their struggle for existence gained the admiration of all followers of the game but they suffered adversity both before and long after the 1914-18 war. It was once written of them: "The wonderful thing about Bradford Northern is the way they have managed to carry on season after season; they never had the least bit of luck and yet, through it all, they have kept the Rugby flag flying."

Birch Lane, as football grounds go, was a poverty-stricken place, and had Northern stayed there they would certainly have gone out of existence. 

Transforming Odsal Stadium to its present pre-eminent position as a Rugby League enclosure has been a stupendous task, but managing director Mr. Harry Hornby had been determined to make it a "show-place" and in this he will certainly succeed, for much is planned.

The Stadium has set up attendance records for a Rugby League ground. There were 66,308 spectators on April 1, 1939, when Halifax played Leeds in the Cup semi-final, and 64,000 saw Halifax beat Huddersfield in the semi-final this season.

It was not until 1940 that Bradford Northern began to figure in the honours lists. In that season, and also in 1941, they won the Yorkshire Emergency League Championship. This championship proper was theirs last season. They were successful in the Rugby League Challenge Cup in 1944 and 1947 and runners-up in 1945 and 1948 to Huddersfield and Wigan respectively. As yet they have not won the League Championship but they got to the final last May only to be beaten by Warrington.

Exigences of the war were such that two Yorkshire Cup Finals were played in 1941 and Bradford Northern were successful on each occasion. They also won the trophy in 1943 and 1945.

The club has been fortunate in its choice of players and in this they have had the invaluable guidance of that former Halifax player, Dai Rees, who has found South Wales a happy hunting ground,

Among solid Welshmen who have been induced to come North are Bill Davies, Trevor Foster, Emlyn Walters, Case and Jenkins. But Yorkshiremen have played a big part, too, and none more so than the present captain, Ernest Ward, who has skippered both England and Great Britain. Others are George Carmichael, Leake, Batten, Kitching, Donald Ward, Darlison and Traill.

Such was Northern's greatness in 1946 that they provided six players for the Australasian tour that year - Ernest Ward, Batten, Kitching, Bill Davies, Frank Whitcombe an Trevor Foster.

 

The reason for sharing this little nugget, of historical information, is that the thought struck me that not much seems to have changed on this subject in the last 70 years. I can't help wondering, if this forum is still in existence in another 70 years, whether the same conversation will be going on regarding financial difficulties, home grounds etc ?

 

 

 

 

[Hemel Stag]

Odsal Redevelopment - Found this from RL News 05-MAY-19

RFL chief operating officer Tony Sutton says the plans being discussed for the redevelopment of Bradford’s Odsal Stadium are in the interests of the whole sport.

The RFL is to sign a memorandum of understand with Bradford City Council and Bradford Bulls and explore redevelopment opportunities for the stadium site.

Plans include the “transformation” of the stadium and surrounding site into “a flagship sports/leisure/commercial gateway to the city centre for residents and visitors, including ancillary retail, food and beverage and hotel accommodation”.

The Council has also reaffirmed its own plans for the redevelopment of adjoining sports centre.

Sutton said: “We are committed to the protection of our sport at the site. This is our primary duty as the national governing body and the reason why the RFL originally stepped in.

“The proposed redevelopment of Odsal Stadium will be contingent on the protection of professional rugby league in Bradford – this means sustaining and developing professional rugby league in the city.

“The Rugby Football League acts in the interests of the whole sport, and since 2011 the RFL has held this asset for the wider benefit of the game.

“The RFL Board will assess whether there are any viable options following the partnership group’s discussions with developers in the market. We will keep stakeholders updated.”

[paul hicks]

9 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

I have just been purchased an old programme; the Rugby League Challenge Cup Competition, Final Tie, Bradford Northern v Halifax, Wembley, Saturday May the 7th 1949. There's lots of interesting things about it, but here are the notes provided about the Bradford RL Team:

Bradford Create Wembley History (by Earnest Cawthorne)

In the official handbook of the Rugby Football League it is recorded that in 1898 Bradford were runners-up in the Challenge Cup to Batley, beat Salford to win the trophy in 1906, won the League Championship in 1903-4 and were runners-up to Oldham in 1904-5.

But that Bradford, which was one of the original members of the Northern Union, is not the present Bradford Northern now creating history by making their third successive appearance in a Wembley final.

The original Bradford played at Park Avenue and when, in 1907, it was decided to vacate it because of a financial loss the previous season, it was a staggering blow to the game's prestige.

There had been envy that the soccer club, Bradford City, should be doing so well at Valley Parade where, incidentally, another well-known Northern Union club, then defunct Manningham, had had its headquarters. It was decided to quit the Northern Union and efforts made to return to the Rugby Union. This move failed and Bradford applied to the Football League, were accepted and played in the Southern League for one season. That is still the Bradford soccer club.

The present Bradford Northern club was formed in 1907 and after a season at Dudley Hill, played at Birch Lane until September 1st, 1934, when they moved to the Odsal Stadium. Northern finished the 1907-8 season 12th in the League table, and it was their best performance for many a long year.

Kept Flag Flying

Their struggle for existence gained the admiration of all followers of the game but they suffered adversity both before and long after the 1914-18 war. It was once written of them: "The wonderful thing about Bradford Northern is the way they have managed to carry on season after season; they never had the least bit of luck and yet, through it all, they have kept the Rugby flag flying."

Birch Lane, as football grounds go, was a poverty-stricken place, and had Northern stayed there they would certainly have gone out of existence. 

Transforming Odsal Stadium to its present pre-eminent position as a Rugby League enclosure has been a stupendous task, but managing director Mr. Harry Hornby had been determined to make it a "show-place" and in this he will certainly succeed, for much is planned.

The Stadium has set up attendance records for a Rugby League ground. There were 66,308 spectators on April 1, 1939, when Halifax played Leeds in the Cup semi-final, and 64,000 saw Halifax beat Huddersfield in the semi-final this season.

It was not until 1940 that Bradford Northern began to figure in the honours lists. In that season, and also in 1941, they won the Yorkshire Emergency League Championship. This championship proper was theirs last season. They were successful in the Rugby League Challenge Cup in 1944 and 1947 and runners-up in 1945 and 1948 to Huddersfield and Wigan respectively. As yet they have not won the League Championship but they got to the final last May only to be beaten by Warrington.

Exigences of the war were such that two Yorkshire Cup Finals were played in 1941 and Bradford Northern were successful on each occasion. They also won the trophy in 1943 and 1945.

The club has been fortunate in its choice of players and in this they have had the invaluable guidance of that former Halifax player, Dai Rees, who has found South Wales a happy hunting ground,

Among solid Welshmen who have been induced to come North are Bill Davies, Trevor Foster, Emlyn Walters, Case and Jenkins. But Yorkshiremen have played a big part, too, and none more so than the present captain, Ernest Ward, who has skippered both England and Great Britain. Others are George Carmichael, Leake, Batten, Kitching, Donald Ward, Darlison and Traill.

Such was Northern's greatness in 1946 that they provided six players for the Australasian tour that year - Ernest Ward, Batten, Kitching, Bill Davies, Frank Whitcombe an Trevor Foster.

 

 

 

 

indeed all of that is true and such things could be written about any number of clubs now in the championship or league one but I'm afraid history does not pay the bills . look at the clubs that have won all four cups in a season . Swinton are struggling a bit at the wrong and of the championship without a ground in Swinton. hunslet in league 1 and playing out of a stadium with I would guess not much more than a 3.000 capacity stadium.

2 great clubs in the past but as with Bradford there history does not pay the bills and they have had to accept the situation for what it is.

[Blind side johnny]

14 hours ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

Your right it was bad, but now its worse.

But how many clubs can support themselves if TV money went and how go back to generating their own income.

More to the point how many clubs have the right people at them.

The issue is the here and now.  Can BUSINESSES be trusted to run themselves.

 

 

Fixed your typo.

[Blind side johnny]

11 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

Odsal Redevelopment - Found this from RL News 05-MAY-19

RFL chief operating officer Tony Sutton says the plans being discussed for the redevelopment of Bradford’s Odsal Stadium are in the interests of the whole sport.

The RFL is to sign a memorandum of understand with Bradford City Council and Bradford Bulls and explore redevelopment opportunities for the stadium site.

Plans include the “transformation” of the stadium and surrounding site into “a flagship sports/leisure/commercial gateway to the city centre for residents and visitors, including ancillary retail, food and beverage and hotel accommodation”.

The Council has also reaffirmed its own plans for the redevelopment of adjoining sports centre.

Sutton said: “We are committed to the protection of our sport at the site. This is our primary duty as the national governing body and the reason why the RFL originally stepped in.

“The proposed redevelopment of Odsal Stadium will be contingent on the protection of professional rugby league in Bradford – this means sustaining and developing professional rugby league in the city.

“The Rugby Football League acts in the interests of the whole sport, and since 2011 the RFL has held this asset for the wider benefit of the game.

“The RFL Board will assess whether there are any viable options following the partnership group’s discussions with developers in the market. We will keep stakeholders updated.”

That's nice. All sorthed then?

[Hemel Stag]

5 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

That's nice. All sorthed then?

Don't think so. Bulls Chairman saying he will decide in two weeks if they are leaving. So, there's a disconnect between the heady optimism expressed in May and the situation today. Will have to see what happens.

[paul hicks]

41 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

That's nice. All sorthed then?

they can sort out as many different options as they want but the question is will anyone want to finance the project that will run into a few millions at least.

personally I think they will be lucky to find a developer in the present market conditions .

just look how well Castleford are doing with there smaller develpoment

 

[meast]

On 03/08/2019 at 09:49, Mumby Magic said:

We have an opportunity to make the ground into a multi purpose stadium, including the area behind it. Yes investment of some means is needed but it doesn't have to be a new stadium. Odsal has countless buildings as you enter the ground near the top. Surely one of them can be converted to increase revenue streams for events? Dogs has been mentioned plus we have Speedway and Stock Cars as options. What do the council really want with odsal??? In addition why can't BPA move in with us? Have a Union team play in winter. Is it really that hard to increase the usage at odsal?

 

 

 

Wouldn't it have to be brought up to 21st century standard first? I imagine that will cost a fair whack?