3 Aug: SL: Catalans Dragons v Warrington Wolves (Merged Threads)

[St Reatham]

8 hours ago, St Reatham said:

I’ve stopped going to certain games with my family due to the aggressiveness of some fans and the language used.

Also, any professional player or coach who criticises a referee, should be encouraged to enrol on a refereeing course and ref a real game to see if they are any better.

 

1 hour ago, The Lad said:

Exactly, so saying that rugby players have to train as a ref and ref a game before they talk to a ref is equally nonsense. 

My original point does not mention anything about rugby players talking to the referee (although I was under the impression it’s only the captain who should enter into a dialogue with the ref). That’s why I used the word criticise.

[Rupert Prince]

6 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Bearing in mind English cricket fans at an Ashes Test Match played in England will be in the vast majority so little chance to fight the opposition fans. Some of the cricket fans at the first Test come across to me as very boorish. Booing Aussie players and waving sandpaper. There’s no class in this country any more. It’s just not cricket became part of the English language for a reason. That reason has all but disappeared.

Well I think the Aussies got away lightly for their cheating, especially Warner who is a nasty piece of work.  But waving sandpaper is not much is it, no bad langauge... and the Aussies had deserved it.   (fair doos to them if they win though).

Back to our game... It does seem a bit of an accident waiting to happen if fans are put one section above another.  And irrespective of whose fault, there ought to be proper stewarding.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I have no doubt that the Catalans corporate aren't squeaky clean here Dave , but if there were fans trying to climb up to me in a menacing way ( what do you think they were intending to do if and when they did get up there ? ) I'd be using a stool to push them back 

It's a mess , as I put right at the start , the away fans shouldn't be anywhere near the Cats fans for me , they could easily put them in the 3 stands facing the cameras 

Yes, the video shows the chair incident to be pretty nasty and not one to take the beasts tbh.

But we are discussing shaky video footage from mobile phones, so I'm happy to leave it to the authorities to review the CCTV and take appropriate action. 

The two extreme views here are that the Wire fans just started invading the hospitality to attack the Catalans fans, the contrary view is that the Cats fans started it by just throwing bottles and attacking fans with a chair. I've been around long enough to know that it is unlikely that either of those versions will be 100% accurate!

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Yes, the video shows the chair incident to be pretty nasty and not one to take the beasts tbh.

But we are discussing shaky video footage from mobile phones, so I'm happy to leave it to the authorities to review the CCTV and take appropriate action. 

The two extreme views here are that the Wire fans just started invading the hospitality to attack the Catalans fans, the contrary view is that the Cats fans started it by just throwing bottles and attacking fans with a chair. I've been around long enough to know that it is unlikely that either of those versions will be 100% accurate!

Indeed 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

 

Back to our game... It does seem a bit of an accident waiting to happen if fans are put one section above another.  And irrespective of whose fault, there ought to be proper stewarding.

This is something that I expect will see Catalans in trouble for. That incident should have been handled pretty swiftly, particularly as there was a steep wall between the two sets of fans. 

Had security formed a barrier between them on the upper concourse little contact between fans would have occured.

[Manfred Mann]

11 hours ago, JonM said:

A moment watching the video would show you that Catalan players and supporters were also involved in the violence.

The video that I saw, involving the spectators, showed Catalans fans in the VIP boxes trying to fight back against a group of Warrington fans climbing up from their seats into the VIP box and throwing punches. If there was any earlier provocation from the Catalans fans in the VIP box, then I didn't see it on the video. Maybe you saw a different video than the one I saw?

The violence on the field from the players, which did involve some Catalans players, is a separate matter, and will definitely be dealt with by the RF this week. But it cannot be an excuse for some spectators to behave like hooligans.

[Tiger Wolf]

When the investigation has been completed to this sorry affair I am certain that both Catalan and Warrington will be made examples of. I dont think it will be that hard to identify the main culprits on both sides then up to the clubs to serve any bans etc.

For those of us who watch Catalan on tv every other week that corner of the ground is always the away section so why mix it with a home section? As we know many use the trip as a holiday and are drinking throughout the day, typical Brits on the pi**, this is not just Wire fans.  Whatever caused the trouble I agree alcohol has fuelled it further. I suspect now Warrington will be given an early season game in Catalan rather than a Summer game to deter many travelling.

Alcohol is a good revenue source for clubs but I would fully support a ban within grounds, surrounding areas may be more difficult.

My family group have been to Catalan numerous times but after the events yesterday and reports of other fans having problems I will boycott future visits. Warrington and Catalans fans have had a good rapport in the past, magic weekends, Wembley last year and so on, although the actual club and playing style over the last few years has been less than professional.i.m.o.

So going off suggested punishment on social media, the Wire should be banned by the RFL and thrown out of super league or relegated, Wembley final taken off Wire given to Hull, Wire and Catalan docked points and an automatic 1 match ban to players and so on.

Good job we are not on the panel to investigate, although I hope action is swift so clubs can put into action any recommendations.

[ELBOWSEYE]

Just watched the slomow on YouTube of the last tackle and what happened in the next 90 seconds.  You have too ask what Mickey mac was doing in a game won with one tackle to go he aimed high and connected, it would have started something in any match, absolutely crazy.

[EastLondonMike]

I'm 65 mins in to watching the re-run and I concur with a previous post that stated the ref had a decent enough game. IMO (thus far) he hasn't missed too much and been pretty equal in terms of penalties with both teams.

Dragons started hard and heavy, but Warrington are no slouches and met fire with fire. 65mins in and it's a good tough game. 

Ill wait and see what unfolds in the last 15.

[Rupert Prince]

58 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Just watched the slomow on YouTube of the last tackle and what happened in the next 90 seconds.  You have too ask what Mickey mac was doing in a game won with one tackle to go he aimed high and connected, it would have started something in any match, absolutely crazy.

I agree with that.  As a player one can admire him but red mist and ignorant stupidity cannot be condoned.  As I have said earlier in this long thread, I think he was looking to get some payback gratification. Sad, stupid. 

One of my favourite players of yesteryear was Peter Smethurst, of Oldham and Wigan etc.  I remember him being clattered in the tackle and coming up spitting blood.  He just laughed at his opponent and played the ball. Hard? Some modern players and their pay packets know nothing.

 

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

3 hours ago, getdownmonkeyman said:

It was the players fault. It was Warrington fans. it was Catalans fans. It was the referee.

The elephant in the room, is the tired notion that RL is above other societal issues/sport that the game doesn't have an issue with booze.

We seem to put ourselves on a pedestal, way above football for example that boozing at the game is okay.

Sorry but it's not the refs fault that fans and players act like animals, as we see all the time and over history even if he sends more players off it would have still kicked off. He and the touchies cannot physically separate the players a la Holdsworth BITD

And as for people saying getting players to referee being nonsense, what evidence do you have for that? Having a greater awareness of how hard it is for the ref and actually experiencing that at a top level I think IS important, how much would it change players attitudes, who knows but I think it's worth doing, I think we should be forcing coaches to go to ref school and ref a top level game so that they might change the way they instruct their players, it certainly can't do any harm but it might do some good.

A lot of responsibility is on the director of refs and the RFL, they need to change the way officials can officiate, to actually enforce the laws of the game exactly as they are written, not to keep allowing them to be broken and let players get away with murder which as we've seen over the last 25 years means players get away with and is the root cause as to why the game is stop start/disruptive and horrible to watch at times. Players/coaches won't take responsibility for playing to the rules but the powers that be need to do an about fa ce with how they have approached matters, they are too thick/not qualified to see why the problem isn't getting better only worse with the way they've been going about mstters, and it's the refs that are getting the brunt of players/coaches actions and the let down by the top brass to not give them the proper framework to referee the sport.

[ckn]

3 posts removed that went just a bit too far. 

Also, one removed for linking to a copy of the game. This is a rugby league forum paid for by a publishing house tied to our sport that’s bankrolled by Sky Sports. Don’t link to copyright infringing sources or you’re likely to get a harsher response than on any other rugby forum. 

[Man of Kent]

When all is said and done there were many  people at fault on Saturday evening but the  selfish and self-indulgent actions of players of both sides have brought the sport into disrepute. 

I’d like to see Chris Hill stripped of the Warrington captaincy and Kenny Edwards shipped back to Australia to play in the bush leagues. We don’t need players like that.

 

[absentee thoughtlord]

I'm afraid we are all in danger of conflating two matters, as if one is relevant legally and morally to the other.

Frankly, the behaviour of some players in recent times with regard to their attitude to officials stinks. Surely it is no good example to set and they should lose their professional 'licence' at either club level or higher. But...

Any spectators who get so wound up by what happens on a sports field as to be provoked into physical rage need to take a long hard look at themselves. They lack judgement and reason. Launching any kind of projectile at another is assault. Threatening behaviour is assault. The sooner the terraces are seen by those who inhabit them as extensions of the public realm - as they are - the better. Banning by clubs is not enough - a date before the magistrates is necessary.

The difference between enthusiasm and criminal behaviour is *not* a thin line. It is vast, but still easily crossed by those who are lacking in sense.

I was at Wembley last year, and will be this. But taking two young children to a match where they are within earshot of grown men and women shouting f''', c''t and w'''''' for eighty minutes isn't especially attractive. Really, who do they think they are?

The passion of supporters in RL isn't a problem. It is an asset. And nor is this a team-specific issue. But blaming anyone except yourself for the actions you choose to take is a dereliction of personal responsibility. You and you alone have to take the consequences.

[The Lad]

6 hours ago, St Reatham said:

My original point does not mention anything about rugby players talking to the referee (although I was under the impression it’s only the captain who should enter into a dialogue with the ref). That’s why I used the word criticise.

Whether it is the captain or not how does a player come to a ref with criticism without speaking to them, interpretive dance?. And even if it is in another form my point still stands saying that a player has to ref a game before he is capable of criticism is stupid.

[JonM]

12 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

The video that I saw, involving the spectators, showed Catalans fans in the VIP boxes trying to fight back against a group of Warrington fans climbing up from their seats into the VIP box and throwing punches. If there was any earlier provocation from the Catalans fans in the VIP box, then I didn't see it on the video. Maybe you saw a different video than the one I saw?

The violence on the field from the players, which did involve some Catalans players, is a separate matter, and will definitely be dealt with by the RF this week. But it cannot be an excuse for some spectators to behave like hooligans.

There are numerous videos around, plenty of people with mobile phones. One appears to show a well-known player throwing a glass of beer from the sponsors box down on to the Warrington fans in the stand, which I would struggle to class as "fighting back". Of course, it's difficult to judge what happened from out of sequence small segments of video, which is why one would hope that CCTV, witness statements etc. are used rather than it all being brushed under the carpet.

I don't think it would be correct to separate the on-field violence from the hooliganism in the stand, due to the actions of Kenny Edwards. In my opinion, he should be looking at a very, very long spell away from rugby league. Again, based only on what I see on video, maybe he has some explanation for what he appears to do.

It cannot possibly be a good thing for Catalan Dragons to deter British fans from travelling to Perpignan. They therefore need to take the necessary steps to make their ground a safe place for families to visit. Pretending that the problem was only with Warrington fans would be a stupid move.

[FullFat]

14 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I have no doubt that the Catalans corporate aren't squeaky clean here Dave , but if there were fans trying to climb up to me in a menacing way ( what do you think they were intending to do if and when they did get up there ? ) I'd be using a stool to push them back 

It's a mess , as I put right at the start , the away fans shouldn't be anywhere near the Cats fans for me , they could easily put them in the 3 stands facing the cameras 

The person in this video is not using a chair to push fans down, he is swinging it violently at the fans below who then begin to try to climb up.  Both sets of fans guilty of poor behaviour but please don't try to describe that persons actions as "using a stool to push them back".  There is an issue with alcohol, undoubtedly  it played it's part.  There are also issues of stewarding, ground organisation.  I've been to Catalan many times and had beer thrown on me from above, so when I go now I try to sit elsewhere.  Other Catalan fans are aware of this and have warned us previously too as they know how some in that area behave. 

The stewarding at the ground in my opinion is vastly inadequate when large crowds are attending and the language barrier plays a part in that but sheer lack of numbers is a larger factor.  Those "VIP" areas should not be serving drinks in glass containers and ideally should be sealed from the away fans below as they are in the vast majority of other sporting grounds.

The video's doing the rounds make poor viewing for RL and I fully expect (and hope) that both clubs are sanctioned as a punishment for this.  What is happening on the pitch is no excuse for an outbreak like this and I think people making that connection are misguided.  The people responsible are in the stands.  Those people, from whichever set of supporters, should be punished both by the clubs and the law.

The actions of certain players on the pitch does need looking at, Kenny Edwards especially.  Chris Hill was agitated and from the coverage on SKY can clearly be saying to James Child that his parents were there in the section where the trouble had escalated.  I'm not sure how I would react in those circumstances but it is for the RL to determine whether he behaved appropriately.

I'm dismayed by the amount of commentators on social media who seem to have judged the situation and laid the blame solely at Warrington's door.  I don't believe that this is fair nor accurate.  As I've stated above both sets of fans contributed to this and the wider problems with segregation, stewarding and language also need to be looked at.

[Dave T]

27 minutes ago, FullFat said:

The person in this video is not using a chair to push fans down, he is swinging it violently at the fans below who then begin to try to climb up.  Both sets of fans guilty of poor behaviour but please don't try to describe that persons actions as "using a stool to push them back".  There is an issue with alcohol, undoubtedly  it played it's part.  There are also issues of stewarding, ground organisation.  I've been to Catalan many times and had beer thrown on me from above, so when I go now I try to sit elsewhere.  Other Catalan fans are aware of this and have warned us previously too as they know how some in that area behave. 

The stewarding at the ground in my opinion is vastly inadequate when large crowds are attending and the language barrier plays a part in that but sheer lack of numbers is a larger factor.  Those "VIP" areas should not be serving drinks in glass containers and ideally should be sealed from the away fans below as they are in the vast majority of other sporting grounds.

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/17814840.catalans-dragons-v-warrington-wolves-crowd-trouble-video/

Video link for anybody interested - although there is some foul language, and the Guardian website is horrendous, so visit at your own risk!!!!

Only thing I would add to the above is that the guy swinging the stool isn't the start of the incident, some fans are already trying to get into there, some are claiming that drinks were thrown.

I 100% agree with the security point though. Surely glass isn't served in that area?

[Just Browny]

As mentioned elsewhere on the forum, I spent much of yesterday plodding around some woods so haven't caught up fully.

So far I have seen lots of condemnation of Warrington fans but very little that I would recognise as the rampage of violence described on the internet post-game. I have seen:

- Some teenage scroats in Wire tops climbing up a stand (unacceptable), before losing their nerve and doing very little;

- A former player of both clubs acting like an absolute ######;

- A Widnes fan exposed as using old photos and pretending to be a Wire fan on Twitter to try to stir things up.

Happy to be corrected if there is some really incriminating footage out there. We don't want to see that in our game.

I have previously lamented the fact that fans of all northern clubs see the optimal Catalan trip as being about getting leathered and knocking back a John Smiths and a full English in Lloret de Mar. It is a terrific waste and a tinder box for ugly scenes.

[burnleywelsh]

5 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

 

I have previously lamented the fact that fans of all northern clubs see the optimal Catalan trip as being about getting leathered and knocking back a John Smiths and a full English in Lloret de Mar. It is a terrific waste and a tinder box for ugly scenes.

Sadly.......so true....

[Allora]

Nothing good to say about any of this.

The Fans, The Players, The Ref........

Embarrassment to our game.

One or two of the players need some harsh discipline handed out to them.

[Allora]

11 hours ago, absentee thoughtlord said:

I'm afraid we are all in danger of conflating two matters, as if one is relevant legally and morally to the other.

Frankly, the behaviour of some players in recent times with regard to their attitude to officials stinks. Surely it is no good example to set and they should lose their professional 'licence' at either club level or higher. But...

Any spectators who get so wound up by what happens on a sports field as to be provoked into physical rage need to take a long hard look at themselves. They lack judgement and reason. Launching any kind of projectile at another is assault. Threatening behaviour is assault. The sooner the terraces are seen by those who inhabit them as extensions of the public realm - as they are - the better. Banning by clubs is not enough - a date before the magistrates is necessary.

The difference between enthusiasm and criminal behaviour is *not* a thin line. It is vast, but still easily crossed by those who are lacking in sense.

I was at Wembley last year, and will be this. But taking two young children to a match where they are within earshot of grown men and women shouting f''', c''t and w'''''' for eighty minutes isn't especially attractive. Really, who do they think they are?

The passion of supporters in RL isn't a problem. It is an asset. And nor is this a team-specific issue. But blaming anyone except yourself for the actions you choose to take is a dereliction of personal responsibility. You and you alone have to take the consequences.

I have no interest in taking my Family to a game anymore for exactly those reasons.

I know swearing is commonly accepted in today's society but I believe in values that are probably outdated in today's world.

At work I can swear with the best of them, its about the time and place and who is around you.

People that swear in the worst possible way in front of Families with kids are just Scu* in my mind that have no class or morals.

You can get your point across and say plenty without getting into the gutter with foul language in public.

[JonM]

It's maybe worth also pointing out that it seems like there was no further trouble after the match, with Warrington & Catalans fans drinking in bars in Perpignan etc.

[Barry Badrinath]

7 minutes ago, JonM said:

It's maybe worth also pointing out that it seems like there was no further trouble after the match, with Warrington & Catalans fans drinking in bars in Perpignan etc.

probably due to the main warrington contingent having to get back on the bus to go back to lloret where most of them have been camped out since last week

[ELBOWSEYE]

Just back on the game Jack Hughes played 60minutes  with a ruptured testicle. Maybe McNamara will think before accusing Warrington players of staying down to disrupt the game.