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Havenwarrior

RFL killing the game

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44 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

No but the whole point of the reserve league is player development above and beyond the amateur game. If a team don't offer that, what is the point in them being in the league?

So how do clubs like Keighley & Halifax attract young players and keep existing players who are not in the first team if there is no comp for them to play in.

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Twitter suggests Whitehaven have had their application for a reserve side rejected.

  This is Whitehaven,top of League 1,coached admirably by Gary Charlton,after their financial problems last year,in his first season,with a side full of local players,and now informed they will not be able to have a reserve side for their probable first season in The Championship.

Just when you thought the sport couldn't get any more idiotic after the weekend...

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51 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

No but the whole point of the reserve league is player development above and beyond the amateur game. If a team don't offer that, what is the point in them being in the league?

No one is pretending Keighley reserves will be producing a boat load of future England internationals but what they are and would continue to provide is a pathway into the semi professional game for ambitious youngsters overlooked by super league academies. Why does it matter whether they contribute more or less to the game then NCL clubs? With the ever shrinking player pool in this country the RFL should be begging more clubs to start up a reserve teams, not slamming the door shut on clubs who actually want to run one.

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Couldn't the reserve league have two divisions with promotion/relegation? Like the Premier League has. Surely there should be room for any team interested in running a team.

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10 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

So how do clubs like Keighley & Halifax attract young players and keep existing players who are not in the first team if there is no comp for them to play in.

There isn’t a competition for them now. They still do it. 

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6 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Twitter suggests Whitehaven have had their application for a reserve side rejected.

  This is Whitehaven,top of League 1,coached admirably by Gary Charlton,after their financial problems last year,in his first season,with a side full of local players,and now informed they will not be able to have a reserve side for their probable first season in The Championship.

Just when you thought the sport couldn't get any more idiotic after the weekend...

Presumably Fev and Newcastle won't have made the cut either? Hopefully the rejected clubs can put together their own mini league.

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1 hour ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  Those clubs with a particular grading of  Academy have to run reserve sides - as do Super League clubs - despite Keighley and Halifax managing to run a reserve side through the years when other clubs failed to do so.

  https://www.totalrl.com/forums/index.php?/topic/284510-reserves-get-off-the-mark/

  The owner from the successful years in the 1990's has returned to Keighley since the previous owners got the club in a mess.

  They play their own players.Last season St Helens played Hull KR players in their reserve side.

 

Cynic also worth mentioning the South Wales (in the Scorpions days  ) for a good couple of years ran a reserve team as well - they got mullered pretty much but I'm sure a couple of the Raiders came through that system .

Also Fev , Leigh and the Eagles stuckk with the 2nd team structure as well 

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Every time I read stuff like this a little bit of my support for the professional side of the game dies a bit.

Mind numbing stupidity 

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Any word on Newcastle? There really is nowt up here for the competitive Academy side to graduate to. Well, between Thunder first team and Gateshead Storm that is.

And that is some gap...

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2 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

No but the whole point of the reserve league is player development above and beyond the amateur game. If a team don't offer that, what is the point in them being in the league?

So why didn't most SL clubs give a s==t about player development this season?

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2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

So how do clubs like Keighley & Halifax attract young players and keep existing players who are not in the first team if there is no comp for them to play in.

The main rationale for bringing back reserves was that players were being lost to the game at 19, as teams were having to prematurely make decisions on them. So this additional level gives a transition between academy and first team. The problem with the teams mentioned is that they don’t operate a fully fledged academy system so don’t meet this criteria. 

I’m with Saint1 on this, I just don’t see the point of teams who don’t run a full academy setup stockpiling players in a lower league reserves basis. You would have perhaps 4 teams in this league below so they wouldn’t be getting a lot of games which is pointless for the players and clubs and a waste of money, which could be spent on youth development/academy or improvement in facilities. The SL reserves will be far too strong for them, which is why they don’t want to play them. 

I have some sympathy for Halifax, given what they’ve achieved with their reserves and can see why they’d see it as a kick in the teeth but I would much rather these teams focus on developing an academy to attract and develop the next generation of players. When that has been achieved, then apply for a reserves again.

The RFL, as stakeholders of the game, also have to be careful that the likes of the NCL is not completely pillaged of players for a piecemeal reserves setup. There are already clubs struggling to fulfil games in NCL and certainly in the regional leagues so it doesn’t make sense to just pad out some lower league squads. Those clubs will still be able to attract young players if they’re good enough for League 1/ Championship level

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Disturbing FB message from Keighley. Suggests just packing it in altogether and not playing final 5 fixtures.

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3 hours ago, BD20Cougar said:

No official reason yet but my first thought was that the super league clubs (who didn't want to run reserve teams in the first place) don't fancy the extra couple of games a season against "less worthy" lower league opposition. If I remember correctly the last time Wigan ran a reserve team a few years back they refused to play against Keighley or Fax. 

i think this is exactly it.  I rememebr the same thing, and my reaction to reading the news was the same as yours.

It is truly ridiculous reasoning though.... as Halifax and Keighley reserves probably aspire to play at Wigan etc, and for them it is the biggest game of their season, and probably has real development value.  It offers players a 'carrot' to getting involved and committing to halifax reserves rather than just playing amateur level.  Wigan (or Saints, Wire, whoever....) could literally play their kids in that game if they felt it was a bit 'beneath' their professional players.

Edited by Celt
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1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

 

You would have perhaps 4 teams in this league below so they wouldn’t be getting a lot of games which is pointless for the players and clubs and a waste of money, which could be spent on youth development/academy or improvement in facilities. The SL reserves will be far too strong for them, which is why they don’t want to play them. 

 

An alternative could be that they play among themselves, but then enter a Cup competition with the 'proper' Super League reserves teams.  The Cup could (for example) start in groups of 4 allowing 3 games minimum.  Super League sides would only be 'contaminated' by having to play maximum 1 match against a part-time club.  The SL reserve comp could have its matches/schedule tweaked slightly to  accomodate this 'Reserve Cup'.  

The minnows could then be patronisingly waved off to play among themselves, and the rfl could pat itself on the back and congratulate everyone for 'doing the right thing'.  if 5 small clubs - Halifax, Keighley, Whitehaven, Thunder and N Wales Scousers (who i am pretty sure run a team already?) were to enter, that could mean 8 league matches, + 3 cup (minimum) = 11 games.  The league could also have a 1v2  'grand final' if it wished.  11/12 matches would be plenty, as the clubs would (i imagine) operate a tiny reserve squad, and include trialists and non-selected first teamers on a regular basis. (as well as academy kids in the case of thunder for example).  

Just an idea like.  (and i do agree with you that investment in facilities is also a priority that should be addressed).

Edited by Celt
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8 hours ago, BD20Cougar said:

Presumably Fev and Newcastle won't have made the cut either? Hopefully the rejected clubs can put together their own mini league.

Surely the common sense answer is to have a compulsory Super League reserve competition and then an optional Championship reserve competition (for both Championship and League One clubs)

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7 hours ago, DoubleD said:

The main rationale for bringing back reserves was that players were being lost to the game at 19, as teams were having to prematurely make decisions on them. So this additional level gives a transition between academy and first team. The problem with the teams mentioned is that they don’t operate a fully fledged academy system so don’t meet this criteria. 

I’m with Saint1 on this, I just don’t see the point of teams who don’t run a full academy setup stockpiling players in a lower league reserves basis. You would have perhaps 4 teams in this league below so they wouldn’t be getting a lot of games which is pointless for the players and clubs and a waste of money, which could be spent on youth development/academy or improvement in facilities. The SL reserves will be far too strong for them, which is why they don’t want to play them. 

I have some sympathy for Halifax, given what they’ve achieved with their reserves and can see why they’d see it as a kick in the teeth but I would much rather these teams focus on developing an academy to attract and develop the next generation of players. When that has been achieved, then apply for a reserves again.

The RFL, as stakeholders of the game, also have to be careful that the likes of the NCL is not completely pillaged of players for a piecemeal reserves setup. There are already clubs struggling to fulfil games in NCL and certainly in the regional leagues so it doesn’t make sense to just pad out some lower league squads. Those clubs will still be able to attract young players if they’re good enough for League 1/ Championship level

Fair points , and if we were coming into a brand new competition set up from scratch then I could be persuaded that for through your reasoning the lower league teams should not be part of it ,perhaps allowed a friendly league of their own ??

However this is not a new comp however the RFL want to dress it up 

The  bugbear on the RFL's decision is it's downright apathy for the efforts of both clubs to keep going and ,who lets be honest ,in the past couple of season if they hadn't provided willing opposition for the big boys, the reserve structure would have been all but dead and buried .For them them to be told sorry we don't want you now is a massive two fingered salute to all the players , coaches , support staff , volunteers and supporters who have worked their backsides off to put a credible team on the park  and have produced some cracking players , for Champ and L1 RL through the system .

I'm sure if the reserve set ups at lower levels are as bad as a couple of posters are making out , then allowing the smaller clubs in shouldn't have been an issue , if the tonkings come I'm sure clubs will see that they are out of their depth and act accordingly . (South /West Wales to their credit ran a 2nd string for a season or two but after a couple of heavy defeats gravitated back to their own regional league ).Natural selection and all that malarky ...

 

 

Edited by Rach
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So if Halifax are refused, and there is no reason that Fax cannot build on that semi performance v Saints and push for promotion in the coming seasons one thing comes straight to mind....

Are we definitely headed back to a closed shop/licensing/franchise call it what you will and one of the criteria is running a mandatory reserve team, if Leigh, Bradford, Fev, York get refused then we will be much nearer knowing the answer! 

Then what about TWP and Tolouse?

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To me the only surprise is that anyone is surprised. It was inevitable that it would all be done for the benefit of Super Greed and sod the rest of the game 

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Not read an article about this, so is it the RFL totally making the decision to refuse entry to non SL Clubs, or is it the SL Clubs who want this and the RFL are enforcing it for them? Just asking.

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10 hours ago, Rach said:

Halifax also been denied ...

Appalling decision , both clubs have supported the Reserve Team Structure for many years , particularly in Fax's case being funded and supported by supporter run iniatives ...

Both teams have produced a steady stream of players that have made their mark at first team level yet another kick in the proverbials for lower league clubs trying to develop from within ....

Halifax being denied is not good. I would have thought they would have been guaranteed. Surely if there is enough teams miss out then there is the appetite for a second tier reserve league?

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6 hours ago, Celt said:

An alternative could be that they play among themselves, but then enter a Cup competition with the 'proper' Super League reserves teams.  The Cup could (for example) start in groups of 4 allowing 3 games minimum.  Super League sides would only be 'contaminated' by having to play maximum 1 match against a part-time club.  The SL reserve comp could have its matches/schedule tweaked slightly to  accomodate this 'Reserve Cup'.  

The minnows could then be patronisingly waved off to play among themselves, and the rfl could pat itself on the back and congratulate everyone for 'doing the right thing'.  if 5 small clubs - Halifax, Keighley, Whitehaven, Thunder and N Wales Scousers (who i am pretty sure run a team already?) were to enter, that could mean 8 league matches, + 3 cup (minimum) = 11 games.  The league could also have a 1v2  'grand final' if it wished.  11/12 matches would be plenty, as the clubs would (i imagine) operate a tiny reserve squad, and include trialists and non-selected first teamers on a regular basis. (as well as academy kids in the case of thunder for example).  

Just an idea like.  (and i do agree with you that investment in facilities is also a priority that should be addressed).

Decent idea mate but, who is going to pay for it all? Out of the teams already rejected (supposedly as no word on some) I would say only maybe Newcastle could? I cant see Haven or North Wales for example being able to pay for it all of their own backs, even if they did get sponsorship. Very short sighted from the RFL who it seems are rejecting everyone outside of Super League. You would think they would want to encourage and expand the game..... silly me! This is the RFL we're talking about!!

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I get that there’s bound to be some anger and disappointment at places like Keighley and Halifax if it’s true and that both have been declined entry to the new competition taking place next year, but I am still a little bemused by such faux outrage there seems to be. 

My understanding is that both currently run reserve teams now and presumably do so without any additional financial handouts from The RFL and both have, if people here are correct, reaped rewards of having a development side. 

Both have felt they had a good chance of being accepted to join this new competition and subsequently made bids to do. They have, if rumours are to be believed, both been rejected from this competition for reasoning not (yet) in the public domain. 

I assume that joining this competition meant sides would get some form of extra funding from the governing body/bodies and I can imagine that for both, playing Super League opposition in reserve games is probably a nice financial boost throughout the year. 

I’m yet to see any evidence that The RFL/whoever funded either side and that either have to stop running a reserve side as a result of this breaking news. Both could continue running their reserve grades, it seems.

There hasn’t been a League for either to compete in over the last few years but both have found fixtures and I’m sure they could do so in the coming year, despite the Super League competition. 

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