RFL killing the game

[Neutralfan7]

33 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I get that there’s bound to be some anger and disappointment at places like Keighley and Halifax if it’s true and that both have been declined entry to the new competition taking place next year, but I am still a little bemused by such faux outrage there seems to be. 

My understanding is that both currently run reserve teams now and presumably do so without any additional financial handouts from The RFL and both have, if people here are correct, reaped rewards of having a development side. 

Both have felt they had a good chance of being accepted to join this new competition and subsequently made bids to do. They have, if rumours are to be believed, both been rejected from this competition for reasoning not (yet) in the public domain. 

I assume that joining this competition meant sides would get some form of extra funding from the governing body/bodies and I can imagine that for both, playing Super League opposition in reserve games is probably a nice financial boost throughout the year. 

I’m yet to see any evidence that The RFL/whoever funded either side and that either have to stop running a reserve side as a result of this breaking news. Both could continue running their reserve grades, it seems.

There hasn’t been a League for either to compete in over the last few years but both have found fixtures and I’m sure they could do so in the coming year, despite the Super League competition. 

And who would they play? Some of the teams they will of been playing will be the ones going in this league!

[Harry Stottle]

32 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I get that there’s bound to be some anger and disappointment at places like Keighley and Halifax if it’s true and that both have been declined entry to the new competition taking place next year, but I am still a little bemused by such faux outrage there seems to be. 

My understanding is that both currently run reserve teams now and presumably do so without any additional financial handouts from The RFL and both have, if people here are correct, reaped rewards of having a development side. 

Both have felt they had a good chance of being accepted to join this new competition and subsequently made bids to do. They have, if rumours are to be believed, both been rejected from this competition for reasoning not (yet) in the public domain. 

I assume that joining this competition meant sides would get some form of extra funding from the governing body/bodies and I can imagine that for both, playing Super League opposition in reserve games is probably a nice financial boost throughout the year. 

I’m yet to see any evidence that The RFL/whoever funded either side and that either have to stop running a reserve side as a result of this breaking news. Both could continue running their reserve grades, it seems.

There hasn’t been a League for either to compete in over the last few years but both have found fixtures and I’m sure they could do so in the coming year, despite the Super League competition. 

 

26 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Anyone know the answer to this?

On the financial side, could it be this is a precursor for Leneghan's master plan of witholding funding below SL, I have yet to see any statement re the cost of running a reserves but I would bet my bottom dollar that most of those SL clubs who have not had the financial burden of doing so will be wanting a recompense for being told it is no longer a voluntary decision but a mandatory requirement.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

On the financial side, could it be this is a precursor for Leneghan's master plan of witholding funding below SL, I have yet to see any statement re the cost of running a reserves but I would bet my bottom dollar that most of those SL clubs who have not had the financial burden of doing so will be wanting a recompense for being told it is no longer a voluntary decision but a mandatory requirement.

In fairness I think that is right. It is the League making footballing decisions for clubs which are not all in favour for various reasons.

[Harry Stottle]

34 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

The source appears to be http://www.rlnews.co.uk/cougars-dismayed-by-rfl-decision-to-reject-reserves-application/

I'm scratching my head about this one, trying to think of a credible reason to turn teams down. On the face of it, the only 'reason' would have to be something to do with the player pool.

But are those lads who have been playing for Halifax reserves suddenly all going to be playing for Huddersfield reserves next season? Morel likely, they'll just be lost to the game. So what is to be gained by disallowing Halifax, Keighley and the rest? 

The cynic in me thinks that we are going down another step to some sort of licensing. They make it a condition that clubs have to run an academy and reserves, and then strangle the life out the clubs who inconveniently now run reserves (or want to). Eventually in two or three years time you're left with the chosen clubs, and the rest have withered on the vine

I'm starting to sound like The Parksider now...

Exactly what I previously said Paul, nothing looks more sure, and I would say SL is ably assisted by Ralphy Rimmer, just as he did when the club vote took place last year for a restructuring of the game (put forward by SL) when in the days up to the vote he canvassed all the Championship clubs to take the SL stance.

[nadera78]

18 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not for all clubs. In many cases it means just not letting them go to championship/L1 in the first place, for others it means keeping players on till they are 20 as they do now anyway. In fact, I don't think I've seen a case of a SL team recruiting a championship player specifically to play in their reserves, though I could be wrong.

In practice it amounts to the same thing - players who would have been playing in one, will be playing in the other.

[Colin James]

I have sympathy with both sides here. Until the RFL give reasons I'm not going to be joining the lynch mob.

If we want SL reserves to have some value they need to be playing competitive games. Are they going to get that against Keighley reserves? I'm not sure walkovers help anyone. I know Dual Registration isn't popular but it does expose young players to genuine competitive games and everything that entails. If the reserves is to largely replace that then it has to have as high a standard as possible. I could understand if they made the decision on this basis but it does seem a bit harsh on those clubs that have been running reserves up to now. In an idea world we'd have a two tiered system which keeps everyone happy if enough teams are interested.

On the other hand, it seems strange to effectively kill reserve teams that are established and only serves to reinforce the SL v the rest feeling in the sport at the moment.

[The Blues Ox]

54 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I get that there’s bound to be some anger and disappointment at places like Keighley and Halifax if it’s true and that both have been declined entry to the new competition taking place next year, but I am still a little bemused by such faux outrage there seems to be. 

My understanding is that both currently run reserve teams now and presumably do so without any additional financial handouts from The RFL and both have, if people here are correct, reaped rewards of having a development side. 

Both have felt they had a good chance of being accepted to join this new competition and subsequently made bids to do. They have, if rumours are to be believed, both been rejected from this competition for reasoning not (yet) in the public domain. 

I assume that joining this competition meant sides would get some form of extra funding from the governing body/bodies and I can imagine that for both, playing Super League opposition in reserve games is probably a nice financial boost throughout the year. 

I’m yet to see any evidence that The RFL/whoever funded either side and that either have to stop running a reserve side as a result of this breaking news. Both could continue running their reserve grades, it seems.

There hasn’t been a League for either to compete in over the last few years but both have found fixtures and I’m sure they could do so in the coming year, despite the Super League competition. 

No official word from Halifax on this but it would be a major surprise if they were not allowed in.

In response to your post though it is ok saying just set up another league or find fixtures etc but we will have at least 10+ reserve teams that will need to be filled with players. For Fax and Keighley to find players outside of that will be very tough if not seen to be playing in the top league.  I would imagine if we don't get in then a lot of our players will either join lower Championship teams or move back to the amatuer game as I would be surprised if the team didn't get disbanded so any money raised could be spent on the 1st team.

[mightyship]

Fev and Leigh were criticised last season for not being able to field full squads. In response Fev introduced a reserves team which has seen some players step up when required. 

Its been mentioned that they’re managing to find opponents this year without a formal set up in place but some of these opponents are currently from SL from memory- eg city of Hull, Wakefield. Who it sounds like would no longer be available to play. So instead of us being a position to play week in week out against SL reserves - which is more than we get to do at the moment- it sounds like we’d have A decision to make on the future of our reserves. Which seems a shame

 

[The Blues Ox]

FWIW 16 out of our current 29 man first team squad have played regular reserve team rugby for us admitedley a couple of those have yet to play a Championship game for us but thats still not a bad return. Any rejection if true will lead to those figures dropping vastly in my opinion. If that is seen to be for the good of the game then so be it.

[Colin James]

10 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

No official word from Halifax on this but it would be a major surprise if they were not allowed in.

In response to your post though it is ok saying just set up another league or find fixtures etc but we will have at least 10+ reserve teams that will need to be filled with players. For Fax and Keighley to find players outside of that will be very tough if not seen to be playing in the top league.  I would imagine if we don't get in then a lot of our players will either join lower Championship teams or move back to the amatuer game as I would be surprised if the team didn't get disbanded so any money raised could be spent on the 1st team.

You make it sound like there are specialist reserve sides. I expect SL clubs will simply hold onto academy graduates for a year or two longer to fill their reserves. Remember academy age is lowering to 18 so there should be plenty of 19 year olds at the clubs. This could benefit late bloomers. They aren't going to be hunting out players who are reserves for Championship/League One clubs.

[tms]

8 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

FWIW 16 out of our current 29 man first team squad have played regular reserve team rugby for us admitedley a couple of those have yet to play a Championship game for us but thats still not a bad return. Any rejection if true will lead to those figures dropping vastly in my opinion. If that is seen to be for the good of the game then so be it.

agreed BO five from the reserves have played in FEV's first team this year one we signed from cas academy 12 times and another six have played in league one things that wouldn't have happened if FEV had no reserves

[Moove]

Will part of this just be logistics of the fixture list? There are 13 enforced reserves teams (11 SL plus Widnes and Bradford with their Cat 1 academies). If all five other applicants got in would it not be a bit of a squeeze to fit in an 18 team fixture list inside the regular season?

[Manxmanc]

I just think that a proactive RFL would have sought to clarify matters by now. 

There maybe a perfectly reasonable explanation for the decision,  but the point is that lots of people are hanging on for some clarity.

 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

3 minutes ago, Moove said:

Will part of this just be logistics of the fixture list? There are 13 enforced reserves teams (11 SL plus Widnes and Bradford with their Cat 1 academies). If all five other applicants got in would it not be a bit of a squeeze to fit in an 18 team fixture list inside the regular season?

Widnes announced a few weeks ago that they were reviewing their Academy set up. I've not seen anything to suggest that they have yet made any decision on how things go forward.

[Moove]

5 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Widnes announced a few weeks ago that they were reviewing their Academy set up. I've not seen anything to suggest that they have yet made any decision on how things go forward.

Fair enough, was going off the RFL announcement about the reserves league. The point still stands though. I'd have thought they'd be looking at a 14 team league, even 16 might be pushing ut.

[Tex]

I have to say I find all the horror about Keighley, Halifax and Whitehaven being refused entry to the Reserves Championship quite surprising.  Whilst clubs have opted in recent years to support a Reserve side (and take the cheap option as it costs money to run an Academy but it is relatively cheap to run a Reserves as you don't necessarily have to pay your players) lets think about one of the fundamental reasons for why people thought that reserves should be brought back in.

There was/is a gap at the end of Academy U19s when some players (lets use SL as an example) are not quite ready for First Team so most of them go out to Championship/League 1 clubs to get some experience and then some of them get a chance to then return back to a SL club, if the clubs are willing to take a punt on them, or some of them become eternal Championship players and do the club merry-go-round. 

With Academy becoming U18s, which I believe is the right decision, there becomes a lot more players who then need somewhere to play. Instead of making clubs make a decision on a kid at 18, which we have seen and heard for years and years is far too early to decide on a player who may be 2/3-4 years away from reaching their potential there is an opportunity for players to stay at clubs and get competitive fixtures. 

I know for some players there is the prestige of playing at a Pro club even if it is at reserves but I would argue that a young player from Halifax Reserves would learn more and develop more playing NCL Premier for Siddal each week than playing Wigan/Saints Reserves in the new structure. If clubs want to run reserves then fine, they can continue to do so as they have under the "current format" but the RFL choosing to support certain clubs in favour of others is not killing the game at all, in fact it is securing the future and protecting their assets in my opinion.  

I know this will be a controversial opinion but such is the nature of these forums. 

[Angelic Cynic]

34 minutes ago, Tex said:

I know for some players there is the prestige of playing at a Pro club even if it is at reserves but I would argue that a young player from Halifax Reserves would learn more and develop more playing NCL Premier for Siddal each week than playing Wigan/Saints Reserves in the new structure. If clubs want to run reserves then fine, they can continue to do so as they have under the "current format" but the RFL choosing to support certain clubs in favour of others is not killing the game at all, in fact it is securing the future and protecting their assets in my opinion.  

I know this will be a controversial opinion but such is the nature of these forums. 

    Certainly controversial for opening posts - but welcome to this forum.

    A Halifax poster on another forum suggested feeder clubs and dual reg. will be the way forward.Great.

    How about a club that wants a player pathway where all the processes and structures are the same all the way through all the club levels so a player can step straight into the first team?

   Hers is a brief resume of an open letter from the reserve team coach at Keighley - they are the experts;not the suits on the sidelines.

    https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/rfl-reject-keighley-application-to-join-revamped-reserves-competition-for-2020/

 

[The Blues Ox]

Rumours appear to be true about Halifax as well just waiting for official confirmation. I fear this will mean the disbanding of our reserves program for the money now to be put directly in to the first team squad. A real shame after all the hard work that has gone in to raising money and a shame for the coaches who have had success in bringing players through. Ive been drifting more towards the amatuer game for a number of years now so its probably time I went fully back there now.

[Tex]

24 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

    Certainly controversial for opening posts - but welcome to this forum.

    A Halifax poster on another forum suggested feeder clubs and dual reg. will be the way forward.Great.

    How about a club that wants a player pathway where all the processes and structures are the same all the way through all the club levels so a player can step straight into the first team?

   Hers is a brief resume of an open letter from the reserve team coach at Keighley - they are the experts;not the suits on the sidelines.

    https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/rfl-reject-keighley-application-to-join-revamped-reserves-competition-for-2020/

 

I’m not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make here. In my previous post I mentioned that for a club to want to run a Reserves but not an Academy is, in my opinion, a glaring indicator of where the RFL are looking when making their decisions. 

I’m all for a player Pathway at a club, but don’t believe that this should be only Reserves and First Team, that to be is not a Pathway, it’s a cheap way of getting a lot of players involved and seeing if any good comes from them.

It may be an opening post but I have followed these forums for years and I have been involved in the game at various levels coaching, playing etc, from professional clubs all the way down to community and university/rep level so I’m not just throwing smoke for the sake of it.

[LeeF]

It will be informative to find out why the clubs which are rejected have been declined and if these are for a failure to meet the stated requirements why the clubs were either not aware of these requirements or why they still applied if they were short of the stated requirements.

I actually think it is more likely to be the "closed shop" reason

[Oliver Clothesoff]

2 hours ago, Neutralfan7 said:

And who would they play? Some of the teams they will of been playing will be the ones going in this league!

You’ve answered your own question. “Some” of the teams will be in this new league, others won’t. 

 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It has the same effect though doesnt it. 

Not necessarily. I don't know the figures but I'd wager the vast majority of players not selected by SL clubs after the academy system do not go into the lower leagues. Either going back to amateur or (more likely imo) falling out of the game altogether. This is aimed at retaining those players. There's currently 14? academies iirc. There's not 350 new players entering senior rugby every year from these academies at any level surely - hence why I think the effect on the lower leagues will be negligible as these players are already in the system.

The ones who want to play first team in Championship and L1 will be perfectly able to as I doubt SL clubs are going to be offering significant money beyond what they pay their current u19s to their new reserves. SL clubs aren't keeping these players forever.

As I've said, I don't think a reserve league is the best way to develop players. I can see the argument for those returning from injury, but for developing hardened RL players I'm not convinced. Claiming that its going to screw the lower leagues for players though is a poor argument against them at SL level.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

This is just typical of the game. We have Clubs that simply dont want to run a Reserve Grade team and do the bare minimum being involved. Meanwhile Clubs that have run and invested time and money producing not just first teamers for them,but Internationals like Chester Butler (Wales), Sian Jones (Wales) etc are told your not involved. Many players at Halifax, Bradford, Fev, Keighley are not just locals, but from places like the Midlands and Wales etc. And Halifax like others do run an Academy team. They use the Calderdale College (Which is linked to Leeds Beckett Uni) as its Academy like a number of Clubs use local education centres do.

Who is in charge of this Reserve Grade League? Is there going to be an official explanation given why a club is not allowed to be part of the Reserve grade League? What is the actual point of it and is there a minimum standard for all or just certain clubs? Are the RFL going to block the likes of Halifax, Keighley, Fev from playing reserve grade games like they blocked Dewsbury from doing earlier this year?

It comes across as that many parts of the game are growing further apart and making many people why bother at all being involved with the sport both as Coaches, Players etc as well as fans. The game as a whole is in a dangerous situation. Instead of growing itself it seems happy to slowly destroy itself with how it makes decisions at all levels.

[Neutralfan7]

23 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

You’ve answered your own question. “Some” of the teams will be in this new league, others won’t. 

 

How do you propose the others left can sustain a reserve team? They'll have no funding, no league ( if they made their own who would run it as I doubt it would be the RFL ). The clubs would need to find massive amounts to fund it which would take away from their first team budget?

[Oliver Clothesoff]

8 minutes ago, Neutralfan7 said:

How do you propose the others left can sustain a reserve team? They'll have no funding, no league ( if they made their own who would run it as I doubt it would be the RFL ). The clubs would need to find massive amounts to fund it which would take away from their first team budget?

Do they get funding at present for their reserve teams? I genuinely don’t know whether they do or not. 

They don’t have a proper league at present and maintain games on a regular basis and don’t seem too bothered by the lack of a proper league structure.