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Could there be a North American RL League?.


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They should defiantly get one. I don't think they will. But no investor will invest because it'll be too expensive and won't get a return in a short space of time. The same reason why the french can't start their own league. The wolfpack, Ottawa, new york, toulouse, perpignan is only viable within the english system. We the m62, we rugby league in England are rugby league above the equator. The game needs us to spread and we are facilitating that spread.  I still have questions about the commercial viability of these north american teams though.

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1 minute ago, Gooleboy said:

I seem to recall Maurice Lindsay and Chris Caisley telling us at the launch of SL that Barcelona, Milan and other major European Cities would be joining the League and look how that came to fruition. So it's a no from me.

I also recall at that time that our amatuer game, the one that produces players was in a much more healthy state than it was just 15 years later, we are now 8 years further on and it is becoming very depressing to witness how it is gathering monentum downhill at an increaing rate of knots.

I ask again, where are the player's coming from, our clubs in the UK will require more Southern Hemisphere player's because of our decligning production belt.

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I also recall at that time that our amatuer game, the one that produces players was in a much more healthy state than it was just 15 years later, we are now 8 years further on and it is becoming very depressing to witness how it is gathering monentum downhill at an increaing rate of knots.

I ask again, where are the player's coming from, our clubs in the UK will require more Southern Hemisphere player's because of our decligning production belt.

Yes, when you see the Amateur results, the amount of games where Clubs can't raise a team is depressing.

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4 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

They should defiantly get one. I don't think they will. But no investor will invest because it'll be too expensive and won't get a return in a short space of time. The same reason why the french can't start their own league. The wolfpack, Ottawa, new york, toulouse, perpignan is only viable within the english system. We the m62, we rugby league in England are rugby league above the equator. The game needs us to spread and we are facilitating that spread.  I still have questions about the commercial viability of these north american teams though.

So I will try with your goodself Music Man, how will these clubs get populated with player's were will they come from, no one seemingly is prepared to offer any suggestions.

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I agree with that talent pool is an issue. France are doing good work grassroots wise. Its the NA teams where I really get ###### off busy trying to piggyback off the rival code. Wolfpack constantly endorsing union. Due to the decline in RL participation in both Canada and USA expect it to take a very very long time and both administrative and mindset change before we see any Super league quality young Canadian come through for there to be any high performance talent pool to pull from i'm saying it'll take like 30+ years for any super league standard talent to come from Canada. Unless it's a union kid but I can't see that happening. There's no pathway for young talent in Canada for RL the wolfpack is based in the uk. What we need is for NA to realize it will never get far with union, union is the enemy. And only then will we see real growth in that region. The french know that union is the enemy hence why the game is doing better there than in Canada.

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Before the problem of player's is addressed you first have to find investors who are prepared to fund the exercise and at the moment,as in the past,  with one exception there isn't any. Whichever way you look at it as prospective investors undoubtedly will have concluded there isn't enough money to be made from the game to justify the outlay.

We are a small time sport that only really has a footprint or makes money in one country in the entire world, so if you were going to invest in the game that is where you would look to do so, not by kite flying in a market where intrest numbers 10,000 at a generous most over a entire continent, how many years and dollar's do you think it would take to turn that around and make it profitable?

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8 hours ago, Chamey said:

Yes, it's called the USARL. I'm pretty unconvinced that a professional league could sustain itself without at least some grassroots or extremely easy and mainstream TV access (ie a few games a week on the main CBS). There's very few shortcuts when it comes to sport. Even the NFL with all it's money and resources over 20 odd years has failed to get beyond a cult following by trying the top-down approach.

No the usarl are teams that pull from union clubs in the usa that play very little games. Player's don't get paid and USARL social media marketing is poor.

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34 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

I agree with that talent pool is an issue. France are doing good work grassroots wise. Its the NA teams where I really get ###### off busy trying to piggyback off the rival code. Wolfpack constantly endorsing union. Due to the decline in RL participation in both Canada and USA expect it to take a very very long time and both administrative and mindset change before we see any Super league quality young Canadian come through for there to be any high performance talent pool to pull from i'm saying it'll take like 30+ years for any super league standard talent to come from Canada. Unless it's a union kid but I can't see that happening. There's no pathway for young talent in Canada for RL the wolfpack is based in the uk. What we need is for NA to realize it will never get far with union, union is the enemy. And only then will we see real growth in that region. The french know that union is the enemy hence why the game is doing better there than in Canada.

I don't think that's the reason the game is doing better in France... 

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1 hour ago, Gooleboy said:

Yes, when you see the Amateur results, the amount of games where Clubs can't raise a team is depressing.

Open age or kids? If it’s open age, is that as big a problem as some would have you believe? I mean, some open side from Hull (or any other RL town) not being able to raise a side to play in a regional league fixture isn’t as bad as a Hull based junior side unable to find enough players to play in an age group fixture, IMO. 

Not sure who sung it but children are our future. While it is ultimately sad that some open age clubs are struggling, investment and plans based around the junior game will, hopefully, yield long term results both for the professional and amateur game.  

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

So I will try with your goodself Music Man, how will these clubs get populated with player's were will they come from, no one seemingly is prepared to offer any suggestions.

Well from next year the Reserve Grade .

The talent is here , it just doesn't get a chance . British clubs bring talented youngsters through the system , and then sign a 26+ Southern Hemisphere player for no good reason other than 'the NRL is the best comp in the world' .

Thursday's game saw a 17 year old - not a 20 something who'd spent the last 2 years at Swinton or Rochdale , playing in a Super league game against St Helens , not because he didn't have anyone else to play in that position but because he was good enough ..

Its not the lack of talent , its the lack of faith / brainwashing that chairmen and coaches suffer from .

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51 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Open age or kids? If it’s open age, is that as big a problem as some would have you believe? I mean, some open side from Hull (or any other RL town) not being able to raise a side to play in a regional league fixture isn’t as bad as a Hull based junior side unable to find enough players to play in an age group fixture, IMO. 

Not sure who sung it but children are our future. While it is ultimately sad that some open age clubs are struggling, investment and plans based around the junior game will, hopefully, yield long term results both for the professional and amateur game.  

Please share what these investment and plans based around the junior game are, I honestly I don't know or am aware what they are?

You seem to be intimating - I apologise if I have misread you - that it really does not matter if the adult/open age game goes into decline as long as the kids prosper, in my expierence which is quite extensive Kids teams have grown out of open age teams formualting a bigger club from Adult/Youth/Junior/Kids, and in the main those who have played the game when reaching retirement from playing are the one's who becone officer's of the clubs, commitee members, trainers and coaches I would suggest that those who would be destined to run and coach kids are those who are interested in taking the relevant qualifications will be affected and severely reduce in numbers if the open age leagues continue to decline in both player's and club's, the fit is like a hand and glove.

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5 minutes ago, Essai Machine said:

Well from next year the Reserve Grade .

The talent is here , it just doesn't get a chance . British clubs bring talented youngsters through the system , and then sign a 26+ Southern Hemisphere player for no good reason other than 'the NRL is the best comp in the world' .

Thursday's game saw a 17 year old - not a 20 something who'd spent the last 2 years at Swinton or Rochdale , playing in a Super league game against St Helens , not because he didn't have anyone else to play in that position but because he was good enough .

Sam Tomkins is a great example , Blake Green (Aussie) breaks his leg , Sam (who would otherwise be playing lower league rugby) gets his chance and the rest is history .

Its not the lack of talent , its the lack of faith / brainwashing that chairmen and coaches suffer from .

Hi Essai, do I make a connection from you being in the Pennines with maybe the Siddal area and the 17 year old you quote, yes I agree with you he is an emerging talent, but with all due respect there is nowhere near enough of these player's, I also agree that the reserve grade can only help matters, even if it means that the abhorrent DR system could have it's days numbered and be a thing of the past also Championship clubs will have to blood new players to fill the gaps.

These for me are positve steps, but when people go on about formulating teams in "Virgin" territories, who would be totally reliant on shipping in all their players, and now we have the crackpot idea of formulating a league if only of 6 competing teams (not enough for me) that will be 30 players a team, 150 players in total, can you not see how difficult that would be, and if it could be acheived what standard could it acheive. 

Anyway thanks for your reply, non of the other Champions of the cause can offer any other idea's.

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10 hours ago, Chamey said:

Yes, it's called the USARL. I'm pretty unconvinced that a professional league could sustain itself without at least some grassroots or extremely easy and mainstream TV access (ie a few games a week on the main CBS). There's very few shortcuts when it comes to sport. Even the NFL with all it's money and resources over 20 odd years has failed to get beyond a cult following by trying the top-down approach.

I think the US is a tough market to grow into because outside of soccer and softball they don't do amateur sports.

Might explain the obesity issues. 

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4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

People who champion the birth of these team's really need to do some thinking about how they are going to be populated with player's, they can't get what we don't have!

We do have them in fact.  94 SL players will be out of contract at the end of 2019, so there's a pool of free agents with SL experience.  Another comparable number of NRL players will be out of contract at the end of the year too, so there's a second pool of free agents with NRL experience.  Such free agents would be a good nucleus for a new league if it had the financial means to sign them, and they could be augmented by free agents from the Championship, French Elite, NSW Cup and Queensland Cup and by such RU or giridiron converts as could be brought into the league.

A league with a solid plan and financial backing could certainly find players, that wouldn't be a big obstacle.

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5 hours ago, HawkMan said:

I've never understood the strategy of wanting Toronto in Super League rather than creating a North American league as a way of expansion. Sometimes we may have to swallow a bit of pride and copy soccer. Whatever we think of what goes on on the green stuff, their expansion strategies are incredible. Look at MLS, did they create a team with the aim of transplanting it into the Premier League ? No! Three areas where they were weak, U.S , OZ and India, all now with pro leagues. Of course it takes money , rich backers, and TV interest, but surely Toronto, Ottowa, and New York could form the basis of a North American league, plus three more teams, a league of six being I believe minimum required. Six teams , 20 game regular season and play offs. That's how to grow the game stateside. Fans are brought up on matchups against rival American cities, not Northern England towns. I know Toronto wouldn't be pleased having to play in an American league after investing so much, but the model for growth is right before our eyes , the MLS.

The MLS model is very good. 

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6 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I went to some PRORugby games. It was a lonely experience. Such a set up relies on an extremely good umbrella organization and almost every team having:

- a suitable venue

- a suitable location and market 

- proper financial backing

- sensible management 

- reasonable playing squad 

...all set up new at the same time.

There are too many moving parts

 

6 hours ago, HawkMan said:

I've never understood the strategy of wanting Toronto in Super League rather than creating a North American league as a way of expansion. Sometimes we may have to swallow a bit of pride and copy soccer. Whatever we think of what goes on on the green stuff, their expansion strategies are incredible. Look at MLS, did they create a team with the aim of transplanting it into the Premier League ? No! Three areas where they were weak, U.S , OZ and India, all now with pro leagues. Of course it takes money , rich backers, and TV interest, but surely Toronto, Ottowa, and New York could form the basis of a North American league, plus three more teams, a league of six being I believe minimum required. Six teams , 20 game regular season and play offs. That's how to grow the game stateside. Fans are brought up on matchups against rival American cities, not Northern England towns. I know Toronto wouldn't be pleased having to play in an American league after investing so much, but the model for growth is right before our eyes , the MLS.

Hello Hawkman,

 I hope my post above is helpful. 

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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7 hours ago, HawkMan said:

I've never understood the strategy of wanting Toronto in Super League rather than creating a North American league as a way of expansion. Sometimes we may have to swallow a bit of pride and copy soccer. Whatever we think of what goes on on the green stuff, their expansion strategies are incredible. Look at MLS, did they create a team with the aim of transplanting it into the Premier League ? No! Three areas where they were weak, U.S , OZ and India, all now with pro leagues. Of course it takes money , rich backers, and TV interest, but surely Toronto, Ottowa, and New York could form the basis of a North American league, plus three more teams, a league of six being I believe minimum required. Six teams , 20 game regular season and play offs. That's how to grow the game stateside. Fans are brought up on matchups against rival American cities, not Northern England towns. I know Toronto wouldn't be pleased having to play in an American league after investing so much, but the model for growth is right before our eyes , the MLS.

So Toronto , then 2 other teams that don't exist ? , Then 3 more teams that don't exist ? , Why not another 6 teams after that , that don't exist ? 

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4 hours ago, Essai Machine said:

Well from next year the Reserve Grade .

The talent is here , it just doesn't get a chance . British clubs bring talented youngsters through the system , and then sign a 26+ Southern Hemisphere player for no good reason other than 'the NRL is the best comp in the world' .

Thursday's game saw a 17 year old - not a 20 something who'd spent the last 2 years at Swinton or Rochdale , playing in a Super league game against St Helens , not because he didn't have anyone else to play in that position but because he was good enough ..

Its not the lack of talent , its the lack of faith / brainwashing that chairmen and coaches suffer from .

You mean those Chairmen and coaches who are put under pressure from fans ? , Those ones ?

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

So Toronto , then 2 other teams that don't exist ? , Then 3 more teams that don't exist ? , Why not another 6 teams after that , that don't exist ? 

Easily solved if someone can put together a solid plan and present it to investors who understand that in North America we have a model whereby pro sports are a profitable investment as shown by the steady rise in TV rights, sponsorship rights and franchise values here.  With the right plan, a transatlantic RL competition which follows that business model would be a ground floor opportunity for them with huge upside potential.

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26 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Easily solved if someone can put together a solid plan and present it to investors who understand that in North America we have a model whereby pro sports are a profitable investment as shown by the steady rise in TV rights, sponsorship rights and franchise values here.  With the right plan, a transatlantic RL competition which follows that business model would be a ground floor opportunity for them with huge upside potential.

Absolute madness the wolfpack haven't even become commercially viable or developing any talent. Now you want more expansion in NA? Slow it down.

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5 hours ago, Big Picture said:

We do have them in fact.  94 SL players will be out of contract at the end of 2019, so there's a pool of free agents with SL experience.  Another comparable number of NRL players will be out of contract at the end of the year too, so there's a second pool of free agents with NRL experience.  Such free agents would be a good nucleus for a new league if it had the financial means to sign them, and they could be augmented by free agents from the Championship, French Elite, NSW Cup and Queensland Cup and by such RU or giridiron converts as could be brought into the league.

A league with a solid plan and financial backing could certainly find players, that wouldn't be a big obstacle.

If they can't find a pro contract then how are they SL quality?

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Just now, Themusician_2 said:

If they can't find a pro contract then how are they SL quality?

They have pro contracts now, which expire at the end of this season.  A good number of pro contracts expire every year in just that way.  Plus in Australia, for every player currently in the NRL they have a few others just about as good trying to break into the top pro ranks.

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3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

They have pro contracts now, which expire at the end of this season.  A good number of pro contracts expire every year in just that way.  Plus in Australia, for every player currently in the NRL they have a few others just about as good trying to break into the top pro ranks.

Due to the migration of top players to the nrl I doubt there's this huge talent pull who are SL quality that isn't contracted. If the talent you want NA talent to pull from those players struggling to keep a professional career the NA teams will fold because they will struggle to get promoted and your sugar daddies will lose interest.

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29 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

Due to the migration of top players to the nrl I doubt there's this huge talent pull who are SL quality that isn't contracted. If the talent you want NA talent to pull from those players struggling to keep a professional career the NA teams will fold because they will struggle to get promoted and your sugar daddies will lose interest.

Who said anything about them needing to get promoted?  I have a whole separate transatlantic league in mind, set up and run like major North American pro leagues in every respect so it can position itself to get the sort of investment and TV and sponsorship contracts needed to make it viable.

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