After Toronto and Toulouse, which expansion clubs would you like to see in Super League?

[Rupert Prince]

10 minutes ago, Manx RL said:

Are you ruling out Nirvana and Xanadu because they don’t have TV deals and a beer tent?

Narnia.

Money talks. Without it, it is a pipe dream.

The seedcorn is is France.  There is a history and there are clubs and players.  Money and investment needs to be added, but a total of 3 clubs seems not unrealistic.   Beyond that Newcastle is a not too distant possibility and if some existing clubs came together (eg Cumbria and Manchester area) some viable clubs could be created.

[HarrogateKnights]

I would like a team from Florida, in the USA Rugby League South Conference there are 4 teams in Florida (Jacksonville and Tampa with Lakeland and Buckingham (Southwest) the other 2) If you could get a team out or Orlando or near Busch gardens in Tampa you would have a joint attraction of not trying to reinvent the wheel in travel sense of super league fans as hotels wise are already there plus other attractions are there too. Plus its East Coast time so not too much to adjust to regarding TV Coverage etc.

[Oxford]

6 hours ago, hrtbps said:

Toss-up between Shangri-La and Timbuktu.

In that case Timbuktu for mine.

[GUBRATS]

Mansfield Marksmen 

[gogledd]

The Kings Landing Lions or the Winterfell Direwolves?

[17 stone giant]

19 hours ago, Oxford said:

Just imagine how media coverage for the sport you love would change with Paris, New York and Toronto.

Swap Toronto for Peckham and I've got just the thing for you in the back of the van.

[GUBRATS]

58 minutes ago, gogledd said:

The Kings Landing Lions or the Winterfell Direwolves?

The Northern Whitewalkers would murder them both

[superten]

20 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

Many people would argue that if Super League does not expand beyond its M62 heartland, it will slowly deteriorate and become a less attractive competition for both sponsors and television networks.

There is strong support on this forum for the promotion of Toronto and Toulouse into Super League. But the question is, if that happens, should that be the end of expansion for the foreseeable future?

What about building more clubs, with promotion into Super League, to create local derbies and popular interest, not to mention new television contracts,  in either north America or France? What about expansion within the United Kingdom?

Two widely discussed possibilities of expansion in the United Kingdom are Newcastle (which has a good stadium infrastructure and is far from the M62), and Sheffield (England's 4th biggest city which is not on the M62 but is still in Yorkshire). 

The best possibilities of expansion in France after Toulouse would be either of two clubs:  Avignon (which is in the southeast, not the southwestern "heartlands," which has not much established team sport competition, but has a good stadium, and has attracted good crowds for rugby league internationals) and Paris, the national political, commercial and media capital, which if in Super League would give rugby league a stronger media and commercial profile in France.

The most realistic possibilities of expansion in north America are Ottawa (already in the advanced planning stage as a League 1 or Championship club), New York (already proposed to the RFL by a syndicate), Boston, and Philadelphia (both of the latter geographically proximate and important sports competitors with New York, and which have been mentioned as future possibilities by Eric Perez).

Having any of these clubs in Super League in the near future would require an expansion of the number of Super League clubs under the current structure of promotion and relegation. Obviously a return to licensing would be more efficient method of rapidly promoting expansion, and enable a more rational control of the number of clubs in Super League.  But in either case the RFL needs to think about expansion, and having a larger number of clubs in expansion nations like Canada, the USA, and France makes possible new pools of fans and players, new streams of commercial revenue for the game, and separate television contracts in these expansion nations which will have a multiplier effect on the game's popularity and financial health.

carry on like your thinking we wont have one team in the m62 corridor in Super league . We have had big cities in super league and thrown them away, Sheffield being a prime example . Lets ask which teams in the m62 corridor your would like to keep in super league ?

[Marty Funkhouser]

We've all seen Paris and Sheffield in Super League have we not?

[superten]

10 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

A reasonable question. It is true that there is not yet a serious club in either of these cities. But their proximity to existing Super League clubs Salford (Manchester) and St Helens (Liverpool) make them a less exciting project of expansion. Of course having a strong team (strong financial backing and 10,000 + fans) in either of these cities would constitute a welcome development for rugby league. But there is no sign yet that such a development would occur, and the deeply entrenched popularity of football in those cities makes it very difficult. Rugby league has had a presence in nearby northern  towns for over a century, but so far nobody in Manchester or Liverpool has seemed at all interested in watching it. ( I realise that this argument also applies to some extent to London, but there rugby league has only been tried, and with little financial resources backing it, for forty years.).

On the other hand most of  the clubs I have listed would generate a potentially more expansive audience in places where rugby league has been previously totally unknown. Toronto has introduced rugby league to thousands, perhaps tens of thousands (through television) of Canadians. There is every chance that the impending start ups in Ottawa and New York will do the same, because of the closer relationship rugby league has as a type of sport to north American football than it has to Association Football (soccer). I also think that Americans and Canadians are more open minded and interested in trying new sports than are the British. Finally, a local rivalry between Toronto and Ottawa, and between Toronto and New York, could also help the game to grow in highly populous north America..

Rugby league already exists in Avignon, and has the chance to expand its appeal if it is part of a professional competition.

you say no to Liverpool or Manchester but yes to Sheffield why is that ? From Sheffield you can drive to Wakefield or Huddersfield in less than an hour . After 30 plus years Sheffield people are not exactly flocking to watch the Eagles even thou they have had relative success .

[Big Picture]

20 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

Many people would argue that if Super League does not expand beyond its M62 heartland, it will slowly deteriorate and become a less attractive competition for both sponsors and television networks.

There is strong support on this forum for the promotion of Toronto and Toulouse into Super League. But the question is, if that happens, should that be the end of expansion for the foreseeable future?

What about building more clubs, with promotion into Super League, to create local derbies and popular interest, not to mention new television contracts,  in either north America or France? What about expansion within the United Kingdom? [remainder snipped to save space]

You overlook the dominance of soccer in the European (UK and non-UK alike) cities in your list, the fact that outsiders to the game look down on RL as a small-time regional sport which they think has limited appeal and the fact that RL remains pretty much unknown over here.

Those things all being true, RL in its present form and structure doesn't have an audience in those cities but needs a way to create that audience (as Toronto did over here) for any expansion efforts there to succeed.  That frankly cannot be achieved within the existing UK structure, it can only be done outside it with a whole different approach.

[Oxford]

52 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Swap Toronto for Peckham and I've got just the thing for you in the back of the van.

I'll take two if you knock it down to a fiver and we can skip the funeral and go straight to the wake.

[Lowdesert]

21 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

Many people would argue that if Super League does not expand beyond its M62 heartland, it will slowly deteriorate and become a less attractive competition for both sponsors and television networks.

There is strong support on this forum for the promotion of Toronto and Toulouse into Super League. But the question is, if that happens, should that be the end of expansion for the foreseeable future?

What about building more clubs, with promotion into Super League, to create local derbies and popular interest, not to mention new television contracts,  in either north America or France? What about expansion within the United Kingdom?

Two widely discussed possibilities of expansion in the United Kingdom are Newcastle (which has a good stadium infrastructure and is far from the M62), and Sheffield (England's 4th biggest city which is not on the M62 but is still in Yorkshire). 

The best possibilities of expansion in France after Toulouse would be either of two clubs:  Avignon (which is in the southeast, not the southwestern "heartlands," which has not much established team sport competition, but has a good stadium, and has attracted good crowds for rugby league internationals) and Paris, the national political, commercial and media capital, which if in Super League would give rugby league a stronger media and commercial profile in France.

The most realistic possibilities of expansion in north America are Ottawa (already in the advanced planning stage as a League 1 or Championship club), New York (already proposed to the RFL by a syndicate), Boston, and Philadelphia (both of the latter geographically proximate and important sports competitors with New York, and which have been mentioned as future possibilities by Eric Perez).

Having any of these clubs in Super League in the near future would require an expansion of the number of Super League clubs under the current structure of promotion and relegation. Obviously a return to licensing would be more efficient method of rapidly promoting expansion, and enable a more rational control of the number of clubs in Super League.  But in either case the RFL needs to think about expansion, and having a larger number of clubs in expansion nations like Canada, the USA, and France makes possible new pools of fans and players, new streams of commercial revenue for the game, and separate television contracts in these expansion nations which will have a multiplier effect on the game's popularity and financial health.

You’ve got several clubs that don’t exist.  What are you playing at?

 

[Clogiron]

It's a pity that they had to cancel the Bristol Balloon Festival at the weekend  because there's enough hot air been spouted on here to power it 3 times over. We are a small Northern sport, have been for over a120 years and are destined to remin so, that's the reality, get used to it

[Manfred Mann]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

You’ve got several clubs that don’t exist.  What are you playing at?

 

As I said, some that now don't exist soon will exist (Ottawa and New York).

The only ones don't exist and that as of now have no concrete plans to exist in the near future are Paris (which has a few local amateur clubs), Boston and Philadelphia. That is just three out of nine listed. And of those three the prospect of building clubs in Boston and Philadelphia has already been raised by the far sighted innovator Eric Perez.

[Manfred Mann]

42 minutes ago, Clogiron said:

It's a pity that they had to cancel the Bristol Balloon Festival at the weekend  because there's enough hot air been spouted on here to power it 3 times over. We are a small Northern sport, have been for over a120 years and are destined to remin so, that's the reality, get used to it

That is called fatalism. If everyone followed your "philosophy" of life then there would be no rugby league club in Canada preparing to join Super League, no Catalans Dragons already in Super League, no Theo Fages playing for St Helens, etc..

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Manfred Mann said:

As I said, some that now don't exist soon will exist (Ottawa and New York).

The only ones don't exist and that as of now have no concrete plans to exist in the near future are Paris (which has a few local amateur clubs), Boston and Philadelphia. That is just three out of nine listed

Just

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I'd love to see the Wakanda Panthers one day.

Wakanda Forever!

[Manfred Mann]

Extreme caricature is a childish and failed substitute for rational argument.

[gingerjon]

50 minutes ago, Manfred Mann said:

Extreme caricature is a childish and failed substitute for rational argument.

Making up teams and naming random places is no substitute for the hard work and facing reality required for all clubs, expansion or otherwise.

[Manfred Mann]

11 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Making up teams and naming random places is no substitute for the hard work and facing reality required for all clubs, expansion or otherwise.

Of course hard work is required for a new club. But Toronto has shown that if the money and a motivated management team is there, something can be created out of nothing.

I have not named random places.  All but three clubs I have listed either exist or are in the planning stage. Of the remaining three two others, Boston and Philadelphia, have been suggested as future possibilities by the successful Canadian innovator Eric Perez. Paris has existed in the past, and it is not absurd to imagine that it could be revived if the money and organisation was there. It's recreation would have a lot of media profile and commercial advantages for the game in France.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Manfred Mann said:

Of course hard work is required for a new club. But Toronto has shown that if the money and a motivated management team is there, something can be created out of nothing.

I have not named random places.  All but three clubs I have listed either exist or are in the planning stage. Of the remaining three two others, Boston and Philadelphia, have been suggested as future possibilities by the successful Canadian innovator Eric Perez. Paris has existed in the past, and it is not absurd to imagine that it could be revived if the money and organisation was there. It's recreation would have a lot of media profile and commercial advantages for the game in France.

We both know that if you'd done this list two years ago that Barcelona and Dublin would have been on there because there was internet chatter and some people had said them out loud in the same sentence as rugby league.

Why would Paris work now when it didn't work before? Where would they play and on what days? Who would their principal TV partner be? What about their main sponsor? Where are their players coming from? Their supporters?

[superten]

1 hour ago, Manfred Mann said:

That is called fatalism. If everyone followed your "philosophy" of life then there would be no rugby league club in Canada preparing to join Super League, no Catalans Dragons already in Super League, no Theo Fages playing for St Helens, etc..

Why no Theo Fages playing for Saints with out Catalan ? French players have been coming across the channel long before super league to play for English clubs . Patrick Entat played for Leeds before super league , David Fraisse played for Sheffield before super league.

[Mister Ting]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

 

Why would Paris work now when it didn't work before? Where would they play and on what days? Who would their principal TV partner be? What about their main sponsor? Where are their players coming from? Their supporters?

Paris is not not renowned for it's love of sport. Compared to other major cities, Paris has always struggled to support any form of football.

[Manfred Mann]

33 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We both know that if you'd done this list two years ago that Barcelona and Dublin would have been on there because there was internet chatter and some people had said them out loud in the same sentence as rugby league.

Why would Paris work now when it didn't work before? Where would they play and on what days? Who would their principal TV partner be? What about their main sponsor? Where are their players coming from? Their supporters?

My list was not based on internet chatter, but on actually existing and planned clubs, plus two other clubs proposed by a very successful innovating entrepreneur in our game.

The Paris team could work, in my opinion, after there was already an established level of participation in Super League, with television coverage in France, by other French clubs -- namely Catalans, Toulouse and Avignon. Last time  Paris was the only French team in Super League. Also the RFL would have to scrutinise the Paris management team, which was poor last time. Where they would play, on what days, and who the principal TV partners would be, are technical questions which is for the management team to work out, and are not obstacles. The 20,000 capacity Stade Jean Bouin, used by rugby union's Stade Francais Paris, could be a possible ground (it has been used for rugby league internationals in the past).

The French players would initially come from the south of France, mixed with NRL imports as all other Super League teams are today. As the team gets established, with a junior system in place, over time recruits can be drawn from the Paris region. 

If three French teams are already in Super League, with French TV coverage, then the game can attract supporters from the Paris region. Rugby Union now has two professional teams from the Paris region, even though rugby union is primarily based in the south. For big matches, such as against against Toulouse, one of the Paris clubs has often drawn 80,000 spectators in Paris. Why can't rugby league achieve at least a quarter of that level of success and thereby be successful?