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CHAMPIONSHIP & LGE 1

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1 hour ago, Hemi4561 said:

Howso? I don't recall any full time professional team in the third tier except for the "cuckoo" teams, but hey you obviously know more about it from your vantage point of? Just remind me where you are. 

Where's the hostility coming from?

But we're talking about merging the Championship and League 1 into one, and there are full-time professional teams in the former, and perhaps more "cuckoo" teams in the latter in the near future. It's like men vs. boys, and generally not very competitive.

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Dual post, sorry.

Edited by TIWIT

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33 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

None of those exist. 

You really do have a problem don't you. Those teams did exist in the third tier when the RFL invited them into a "development league". Subsequently the RFL changed their thinking and dumped some of the established northern teams into it, I have mentioned this already by the way, which changed the dynamic of that league. The result was that some of the people who had struggled long and hard to get expansion teams into the semi professional set up got fed up of banging their heads against a brick wall, the RFL. Those teams should still be in existence! Go talk to Bob Brown and Lionel Hurst, I have. 

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11 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said:

You really do have a problem don't you. Those teams did exist in the third tier when the RFL invited them into a "development league". Subsequently the RFL changed their thinking and dumped some of the established northern teams into it, I have mentioned this already by the way, which changed the dynamic of that league. The result was that some of the people who had struggled long and hard to get expansion teams into the semi professional set up got fed up of banging their heads against a brick wall, the RFL. Those teams should still be in existence! Go talk to Bob Brown and Lionel Hurst, I have. 

But they’re not. If’s and but’s are as pointless as people who mention teams in France and teams that don’t even exist playing in the UK system. 

 

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11 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Where's the hostility coming from?

But we're talking about merging the Championship and League 1 into one, and there are full-time professional teams in the former, and perhaps more "cuckoo" teams in the latter in the near future. It's like men vs. boys, and generally not very competitive.

No hostility, just asking you where you are and how much experience you have of following Rugby League in the flesh just interested. The OP suggested 1 division, I have no problem with that at all notwithstanding the large gap between the top and bottom. Others proposed 2 with one being a development division, I have pointed out that we had that until the RFL changed its position which has led to the demise of development teams that were in that division. 

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2 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said:

No hostility, just asking you where you are and how much experience you have of following Rugby League in the flesh just interested. The OP suggested 1 division, I have no problem with that at all notwithstanding the large gap between the top and bottom. Others proposed 2 with one being a development division, I have pointed out that we had that until the RFL changed its position which has led to the demise of development teams that were in that division. 

My apologies then - I inferred something that you did not imply. But yes, I am a Canadian, and we find there is a lot of hostility here towards us and our team, so we can be pretty defensive.

I generally agree with you - there is already a large gap in the Championship between the top teams and the bottom, and by and large the top teams are fully professional and the bottom semi-pro. I have always advocated that be the dividing point between the two leagues, and any new clubs either be slotted into the professional league or the semi-pro one, depending on their structure. But a single large league encompassing Toronto at one extreme and West Wales at the other is simply not viable.

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13 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

But they’re not. If’s and but’s are as pointless as people who mention teams in France and teams that don’t even exist playing in the UK system. 

 

Interesting phraseology, you could have written "are as pointless as mentioning" which is impersonal. You chose to write "are as pointless as people" which is personal. You have demonstrated this trait on more than just this thread, you believe, and your language demonstrates, that any opinion that you do not share, and it's holder are valueless, pointless as you put it.

I may not share another's opinion, I may ask for clarification, explanation, or for more background so I may attempt to understand it, but even if these are not forthcoming I would not label them "pointless" 

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10 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

My apologies then - I inferred something that you did not imply. But yes, I am a Canadian, and we find there is a lot of hostility here towards us and our team, so we can be pretty defensive.

I generally agree with you - there is already a large gap in the Championship between the top teams and the bottom, and by and large the top teams are fully professional and the bottom semi-pro. I have always advocated that be the dividing point between the two leagues, and any new clubs either be slotted into the professional league or the semi-pro one, depending on their structure. But a single large league encompassing Toronto at one extreme and West Wales at the other is simply not viable.

No apology necessary. My general point would be that we have tried 1,2 and 3 division formats since 1895, and have kept changing. No doubt the arguments with every change were the same then as now. 

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If the top teams in the Championship were admitted into a larger SL comp, then...

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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3 minutes ago, RayCee said:

If the top teams in the Championship were admitted into a larger SL comp, then...

Do you think the powers that be would countenance that, reducing their share of the pie. And there is still the danger of the gap between the top and bottom teams in the expanded SL. Their mantra is "more quality less quantity", fewer teams, fewer games, but more "quality" to enhance the Value of TV rights so more money for them. 

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8 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

The pie won't split 25 ways to The satisfaction of the top (& most influential)  Championship clubs 

Will there be a TV deal in the next round. Especially for the mid to lower league 1 clubs. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hemi4561 said:

Do you think the powers that be would countenance that, reducing their share of the pie. And there is still the danger of the gap between the top and bottom teams in the expanded SL. Their mantra is "more quality less quantity", fewer teams, fewer games, but more "quality" to enhance the Value of TV rights so more money for them. 

Kind of a flawed argument when the gap between the #2 snd #12 is so small.  Adding the top 6 from the Championship wouldn't really change this as I am willing to bet Toronto would be better than some of those clubs and the rest would be no worse than London Broncos.

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37 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Kind of a flawed argument when the gap between the #2 snd #12 is so small.  Adding the top 6 from the Championship wouldn't really change this as I am willing to bet Toronto would be better than some of those clubs and the rest would be no worse than London Broncos.

True that. But the 'reducing the share of the pie' is the key thing. 

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How about super league 12 teams , Championship 8 teams and league one the rest ? Bring back the super 8 s . With bottom four in super league playing top four in championship . Then have bottom four in championship play top four in league to fight to retain there championship status. Rest of league one could then play in a cup comp in which we could invite some summer conference sides into .

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Chief Crazy Eagle

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11 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

True that. But the 'reducing the share of the pie' is the key thing. 

IMO the top 6 of the championship would as a group would then be the bottom 6 of the Super League, still with a large gap the top and bottom. In any given year 1 of these might migrate up due to various factors but in 5 years time the relative positions of most would be roughly the same. 

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We haven't had a league restructure for at least ten months so I'm glad we're finally talking about needing another one.

The league structure isn't the issue. The lack of league funding is the issue.

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13 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

We haven't had a league restructure for at least ten months so I'm glad we're finally talking about needing another one.

The league structure isn't the issue. The lack of league funding is the issue.

A league where there’s a ten point gap between 7th and 8th isn’t exactly showing of a great league structure. 

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On 18/08/2019 at 11:56, DavidM said:

Yes . Argue the structural set up , but overall yes one league . League one is dying a slow death 

Dont agree, Lg1 was a great comp last year. This year with only 11 teams not as good but there are about 6 teams looking for promotion - put those teams in with the top Champ teams and their seasons would be all over now.

3 divisions keep intrest up an enable teams to grow playing similar teams. Dred to think of Toronto playing West Wales in Canada this season 200 - 0?? But WW made headlines by getting their first win in Lg1 a few weeks ago.

Keep the Cup but let's use some common sense and play it before the CC final - would put an other 5 to 10 K on the gate as well.

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Just now, Mr Frisky said:

Dont agree, Lg1 was a great comp last year

I’d agree with that , which made this years set up a shame .

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How do we look at this? Is it -

Whats best for the game as a whole?

Those who perform best on the pitch?

What clubs are in a strong enough position to be sustainable and grow?

Do we respect the history of RL and those clubs that have been going for over a century? 

Who gets the most people through the turnstiles?

The numbers of people turning up to watch many Championship teams and most L1 suggests we have a big problem unless more money is pumped in - particularly to grow the sport (local advertising, juniors, school and college engagement, national publicity). That’s not likely.

Its true L1 has become an exciting league to follow but how sustainable is it with many teams (including my own) getting only 300 or so people paying to watch? (There are teams in Championship with similar gates). 

Reluctantly - unless a deal and money is on the way - I can’t think how L1 can be preserved as a third tier. We had a chance maybe when Oxford et al, came in but that was blown.

I’m not sure what the way ahead is, but given economic realities I suspect it’s not based solely on performance on the pitch. Perhaps every Championship and L1 side should go through a “stress” test to see how well they are managed and the strategies/business plans they have to engage and grow, as well as their location (eg, we need Cumbrian clubs) and performance and gates. 

Promotion from L1 doesn’t seem to add many to the gates (away supporters from the likes of Fev aside). SL is the only prize. Fewer teams in an expanded Championship I fear may be the only way ahead  

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1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

A league where there’s a ten point gap between 7th and 8th isn’t exactly showing of a great league structure. 

You could say the same about Super League - except it's between 1st and 2nd in that division...

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19 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

You could say the same about Super League - except it's between 1st and 2nd in that division...

Every week, the Top 7 Championship sides hammer the bottom 7.  The leagues aren't comparable at all.

The bottom ranked team has beaten the top ranked team in SL, twice this season.

In what world is Rochdale ever coming close to beating Toronto?  The top 6 or 7 clubs in Championship regularly put up cricket scores against the bottom 7.

 

Edited by CanadianRugger
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7 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

You could say the same about Super League - except it's between 1st and 2nd in that division...

You could but it’s almost every year in the Championship. 

2018 - 16pts between 6th and 7th. 

2017 - 8pts between 5th and 6th. 

2016 - 11pts between 6th and 7th. 

2015 - 9pts between 7th and 8th. 

2014 - 13pts between 10th and 11th. 

An average of 11.4pts usually somewhere between 6th-8th

Super League

2018 -10pts between 4th and 5th. 

2017 - 10pts between 1st and 2nd. 

2016 - 9pts between 4th and 5th. 

2015 - 9pts between 11th and 12th. 

2014 - 11pts between 10th and 11th (Bradford had 6 deducted so really, this figure is lower). 

An average of 9.8pts. 

 

Lets try not and make cheap digs at Super League, the disparity in the Championship is huge. 

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19 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

If we're looking at a mix of licensing and P&R for traditional areas and expansion clubs, why not have 4 conferences with a Cup competition (1895 Cup) and a play-off for promotion involving all? Some conferences may be stronger than others, but they'll still get to play cross-conference games and it allows expansion sides a quicker route to the top.

North West & East Championship: Leigh, Swinton, Widnes, Oldham, Rochdale, Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington, Newcastle

Yorkshire Championship: York, Fev, Sheffield, Bradford, Halifax, Batley, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Doncaster, Keighley

Southern Championship: Broncos (favourites for drop), Skolars, Coventry, North Wales, West Wales + any further applicants.

Intercontinental Championship: Toulouse, Villeneuve, Carcassonne, Avignon, Ottawa, New York

 

16 fixture league season. 8 fixture Cup group stage (H&A groups of 5). Then play offs and involving the top 4 from each.

WTF would you include Newcastle into that group!


We`re on a road to Nowhere.......................

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1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

A league where there’s a ten point gap between 7th and 8th isn’t exactly showing of a great league structure. 

Are you another incarnation of the pseudo Frenchman from Chorley?

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We`re on a road to Nowhere.......................

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