24 Aug: Coral Challenge Cup Final: St Helens v Warrington Wolves KO 3pm (BBC)

[Oliver Clothesoff]

Warrington were the better side from the first hooter to the last, dominated the pack and made less mistakes. 

Congratulations to them and Wigan for making the Grand Final. 

[Dave T]

I see Holbrook's reaction was as classy as a small section of the arrogant Saints fans. 

"I dont want to sound like a sour coach, but...."

His observation that Saints were great and just made a few errors late on suggests Saints may be better without him moving forward. They made errors all game.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I see Holbrook's reaction was as classy as a small section of the arrogant Saints fans. 

"I dont want to sound like a sour coach, but...."

His observation that Saints were great and just made a few errors late on suggests Saints may be better without him moving forward. They made errors all game.

This was completely baffling. We were never in the game and he’s been watching something different. 

[Just Browny]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I see Holbrook's reaction was as classy as a small section of the arrogant Saints fans. 

"I dont want to sound like a sour coach, but...."

His observation that Saints were great and just made a few errors late on suggests Saints may be better without him moving forward. They made errors all game.

Have yourself a read of RedVee mate, enough sour grapes to start a vinegar factory.

I want to echo Cheshire Setter's point and say it was a remarkably clean game played in a great spirit by both teams.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Crowd was appalling but nowhere near as bad as served up by Holbrook. Sooner he’s gone, the better. One win in five big games and that was against a part time team. 

Told you the 1895 would possibly be the better game for entertainment value, not wrong was I

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Have yourself a read of RedVee mate, enough sour grapes to start a vinegar factory.

I think I'll pass. I'm enjoying reading many of my family and friends comments though 

[fieldofclothofgold]

This all makes the run in to the Grand Final very interesting .Will Saints pick themselves up ? Can Wire kick on ? Oh and look who's waiting in the wings quietly??? Weegin weegin weegin.  Now both saints and Wire have a monkey to remove I`E Bottler tag and winning the CC doesnt make it your year and you know it 

[Dave T]

 

[Teessidewire]

It seemed that way yesterday. Well worth the horrendous 7 hour drive from Stockton on Friday (it usually takes 4).

[Teessidewire]

16 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

That's not a "terrible decision" Wilkin, it's not conclusive at all for me.

What did he say about the Lineham one?

[Ullman]

18 hours ago, 7723 said:

Clarke has been great. Thought Philbin could have been in with a shout, he really changed the game when he came on.

Agree with both but Ratchford would have been my pick for the Lance Todd.

Only going to be one winner of the when Clarke scored his try though.

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, Cheshire Setter said:

The Taia was correct we see that all the time in regular games.

I agree that Knowles’ was a try and I would have given it.   However, it’s also likely that had Hicks sent it upstairs he would have ruled no-try on the field, and since the only camera angle was from the side that hid Knowles fingertips Thaler would likely have stuck with the on-field decision as there wasn’t enough evidence for him to overturn it...   as I say for mine it was a try though.

Ultimately one decision can’t be blamed for the entire match performance.   Everyone focuses on the Knowles try but forgets the Lineham incident, the obstruction for Fages’ try which we see every week, the smack to the face by Paulo, the contact with the head by Makinson etc etc.

The Better team won on the day.   Someone had to win so have a bit of grace.

I have no dog in this fight but...

Taia was a knock on.

Knowkes try was not a try and the one man who had a clear view of it was the referee, standing a yard away. If he had gone up he would have said no try and it would not have been overturned.

Linehams try was about as fine as could be. The guy playing the ball moved away so it was a real tough call. The refs opinion on all 3 was no try so he was consistent.  Anyone wanting to criticise him is being prejudiced.

Saints fans need to look at their team. Hull and Cas have had to after some bad displays and so have Wigan who earlier in the season gave away a big lead against Cas. Wigan totally lost their head in that game and have worked hard at facing up to tough opponents. 

Too many Saints opponents have taken it too easy for them. Yesterday Saints were faced with 7 agressive forwards including a class hooker. 

[Ullman]

18 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

lovely to see Sir Johnny of Whitely being introduced to the players and will present the trophy, can't even beg an OBE never mind a knighthood for not just a rugby league legend but an absolute top person with his work within the communities of Hull for decades.

Who needs royalty when you have a living deity?

[Chris22]

I think it's hard to argue that the Knowles no try was incorrect. The BBC showed one replay which clearly showed a couple of fingers on the ball as it hits the floor, you can tell by the way Knowles fingers bend back. We also had a tough call with the Percival no try. I think the no try was the right call but it was a knock on firstly by Hughes and in the resulting set, Grace was unlucky to have a knock on given against him before Warrington scored thereafter. That being said, the Lineham no try seemed strange to penalise and was worth going on to the grounding and you only have yourself to blame for conceding the Philbin try through soft defence. 

Whilst Hicks made a couple of errors, Saints made 20. I don't have the stats to hand, but I doubt too many sides have won a final making that many errors. Warrington on the other hand were incredibly disciplined. My impression was that they conceded fewer penalties than normal, kicked well and were very tight with ball retention. The key things that win finals, they did well.

For Saints though, our problems develop further. Since the 2007 Grand Final, we have an awful record in finals and semi finals. That's under numerous coaches, numerous different squads, even numerous home stadiums! In the last two years, whenever we have been placed under any sort of adversity in a big game, we have crumbled.

We have proven that we have the ability to beat anyone in this league. But in a semi final or final, if something doesn't go our way, I worry that we do not have the belief that we can win. That is probably heightened amongst the players now. I certainly don't have any confidence that we the championship now. The thought of two years of dominance and coming away with nothing but the booby prize both times is hard to take.

With hindsight, maybe we shouldn't have built our new stadium on a former bottling site... 

[Chris22]

Oh, and one last point! The behaviour of rugby league fans has been under scrutiny in recent weeks and with good reason. But in my experience yesterday, all sets of fans conducted themselves in an exemplary manner.

[Exiled Wiganer]

One thing that occurs to me is that Saints may have their training wrong. In a lot of sports people can only sustain a peak for a limited period  of time. If Saints’ plan has been to start the year well and keep going, then they are at risk of their players’ fitness tailing off just when the big knock out games come round.

Maybe Holbrook was thinking that a massive lead in the league would help his CV, while other teams have been deliberately building to this time of year. When Wane first took over, he had a season in which we won the LLS, in wonderful style, but we were running on empty by the end of the year. Maybe knowing your coach’s mind is on Titans affects the players...

On the other side of the coin, in league  express they had a list of which players had won at Wembley. Wire’s was a much much longer list than Saints. It can’t do any harm to be able to draw on that experience when the pressure is truly on.

All things considered, it was obvious what was going to happen when you think about t. 

[Hopping Mad]

Watched the recording this morning. Tight, tense, absorbing game. Bit short on the spectacular (but then how many cup finals, in any sport, have that element?). I wonder what non-aficionados made of it. My wife - at best a casual, occasional observer of rugby league - enjoyed it. Indeed, she gave the thumbs-down to my suggestion we fast forward through the last eight minutes, once it was obvious Warrington had won.

Always good to see the underdog triumph. Irrespective of the various 'dodgy' decisions, Warrington were much the better side. Not for the first time, St Helens had a shocker on one of the season's biggest days.

I'm not a fan of the new Wembley's sunny-and-shady, now-you-see-me-now-you-don't pitch. Bad enough watching on TV. Must be difficult for players, match officials and spectators.

[Mattrhino]

5 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

This all makes the run in to the Grand Final very interesting .Will Saints pick themselves up ? Can Wire kick on ? Oh and look who's waiting in the wings quietly??? Weegin weegin weegin.  Now both saints and Wire have a monkey to remove I`E Bottler tag and winning the CC doesnt make it your year and you know it 

I think that may have broken Saints. They don't have the answers in big games. 

[Padge]

17 hours ago, absentee thoughtlord said:

Outstanding defensive performance from Warrington. Turned up expecting Saints to win by 16+, but after twenty it looked like the St Helens forwards were gassed (and about to spend the next forty in the sun).

On another matter, regrettably my wife and daughter were sat next door to an inebriated Halifax fan who had nailed his colours to the Saints mast. The guy had beer Tourettes. My 11 year old lad thankfully was paying far too much attention to the match to pick up too much, but the language was filthy. The "oh wan$¥ wan$¥ Warrington" thing has surely had its day, especially when primary school age kids are sat alongside you.

Also met a lovely old chap from Leeds who had travelled on his own. A very gracious and knowledgeable fellow who could not have been more different from the 20 something embarrassment to the sport. Hats off also to the Saints fan (slightly tipsy) who congratulated and hugged my son as we walked towards Wembley Park.

 

We had a row of Saints fans behind us, one of which was an utterly obnoxious foul mouthed goon. His mates tried to stop him wanting to argue with anybody around that wasn't  a Saints fan, it mostly neutrals, but couldn't shut him up. Second half none of them reappeared and the atmosphere improved immensely. 

[Padge]

5 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Apart from it was conclusive and Knowles was touching the ball and applying downward pressure, that’s a great post. 

That's a great post, of your opinion, which actually doesn't count in this case. 

[Man of Kent]

Might be a touch simplistic but could it be Saints are simply a little bit small and that counts against them in the big games?

Their backline are all five-footers and their pack is pretty small too. Thought Warrington had too much for Saints physically and so they had to force it, which led to the errors.

[paulwalker71]

15 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Might be a touch simplistic but could it be Saints are simply a little bit small and that counts against them in the big games?

Their backline are all five-footers and their pack is pretty small too. Thought Warrington had too much for Saints physically and so they had to force it, which led to the errors.

I was saying just this to someone earlier. Saints look a bit 'lightweight'. It might be simply an impression (I don't have stats) but in the last year or so they seem to get bullied about in those big 'must win' games.

[Man of Kent]

6 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

I was saying just this to someone earlier. Saints look a bit 'lightweight'. It might be simply an impression (I don't have stats) but in the last year or so they seem to get bullied about in those big 'must win' games.

If you tallied the weight/height of both yesterday’s starting XIIIs I’m certain Warrington would be quite a bit bigger. Size isn’t everything but in tight, lower-risk games it does matter. 

 

[Cheshire Setter]

I know it’s a bit late but I just thought I’d finally take advantage of being able to say a certain ‘something’ for the first time...

”Never write-off the Wire..!!!!”

I’m hoping Sky TV commentators will pick it up and churn it out endlessly in every meaningless game we play

 

[GUBRATS]

9 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

If you tallied the weight/height of both yesterday’s starting XIIIs I’m certain Warrington would be quite a bit bigger. Size isn’t everything but in tight, lower-risk games it does matter. 

 

Yes , but usually they tire quicker , especially in yesterday's temps , which should allow the opposition to take advantage later on