New York/Ottawa Rugby League - signs of activity

[Kayakman]

12 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

but snow shifting and knowing how to get to Tim Hortons field easily are not two of them.

Its the fine dining and opera that Anita is looking for!...a trip to Moosonee, Ontario would provide the lifelong memories yearned for!

[ojx]

22 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Not only Hamilton folks who have experienced Toronto attitudes...I am in Australia but experienced it first hand.

Still saving that spot on Yonge for that Stanley Cup parade that never comes?

Not everyone agrees. Kept scrolling, but couldn't find Hamilton on the list.

[ojx]

While on the subject, did you know that you could fit nearly all of the RL heartlands between the continuous urban area of Hamilton to Oshawa. It is such a small game.

Both maps on the same scale.

[ojx]

20 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueMan said:

Those maps are certainly not to scale at all.

Yes they are exactly to scale.

[ojx]

According to google:

Distance Hamilton to Oshawa: 127.5 km

Distance form Liverpool to Leeds: 123.7586 km

That is using road distances, as the crow flies, it is even less. 

I left out Hull for convenience, but the point still stands that it is shocking how small the RL word is. Especially as it doesn't;'t actually include the cities of Liverpool or Manchester.

[TIWIT]

Now you've done it. Brought size into the discussion.

[The Parksider]

7 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Not a peep...Perez says he is ready to go but some minor details need to be ironed out at RL HQ. Ottawa should be in next year if anyone actually cares about keeping the momentum of the expansion going.

You still refuse to admit that Ottawa signing a squad of SL players from here and staging their games in Canada isn't in any way "Expansion" once again (not for you but for the open minded and realists on here) expansion is about exactly what Mr. Perez said it was back in 2016. It was Canada actually developing SL players to expand the playing pool, by the method of converting grid iron players to RL and not by junior development as Perez himself had failed to achieve that whilst at Canada RL.

It was also Canada finding a NATV deal to share here, with Perez again on record on You Tube talking about big NATV contracts, none of which have ever come to pass with TWP actually having to pay themselves to get on TV. The failure to provide either of these measures of expansion has led to SL bosses openly saying they favour Toulouse because they DO develop players and there is more of a chance of a French TV deal especially with two French clubs in Superleague.

3 hours ago, ojx said:

While on the subject, did you know that you could fit nearly all of the RL heartlands between the continuous urban area of Hamilton to Oshawa. It is such a small game.

Wow, it's taken you three years to realise Rugby League here is so small we therefore don't have the resources to allow Canadian clubs to start signing up our professional players and shipping them off to Canada, and we can't afford Canadian clubs in Superleague instead of English clubs because our SKY TV deal requires a predominantly English League, because it's English fans that pay the subs.

Can you guys not understand this?  The ignorance is staggering here, every Canadian club going into SL reduces the value of the SKY contract, every squad of SL players from here sent to play in Canada to support this charade is another English club going to the wall through a lack of players, and their fans walking away from the game. 

Why not deal with reality for once?

On 04/09/2019 at 04:53, RayCee said:

Ottawa are only going into League One. They don't need to be SL or championship standard in year one. If they are admitted, they will surely get promoted at the first attempt.

Can you not grasp it Ray that the current SKY deal is coming to an end and the smaller replacement deal will mean many of the Championship clubs going to the wall, early this year there was an idea we would lose all but 20 clubs, who would play as SL1 & SL2.

See the current threads about championship clubs (Swinton) starting to look to grab those few places lest they go to the wall, see the discussions about clubs merging to save themselves from being left out of the English pro game and the smaller TV deal and structure. That isn't expansion is it Ray? It's contraction which means the end of the American dream.

8 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Any real news on Ottawa or New York?

After some terrible posts you now seem to get it that the American dream is in fact the Perez fantasy.

New York is a joke and was from the start which is why that can was kicked down the road to 2021 when there will be no room for them anyway. The news was Ottawa were accepted for the Championship for next season but they and Rimmer chose not to take that opportunity citing some mystery issue that needed to be cleared up first so they pretended they would start 2021 to save face.

But by 2021 the reduced SKY deal and the reduction of the leagues will mean many English clubs going to the wall, so it's absolutely laughable that North American clubs with nothing to offer themselves in terms of TV money will somehow be admitted to a reduced league structure. As it stands if TWP win the play off they are set to be refused in Favour of Toulouse because the SL bosses rightly want to get a French TV deal.

New York was a joke. The laugh is the idea a few NYRL shirts on sale on line proves there is a Pro NY club turning over $$Millions on the way is laughable.

Ottawa offer nothing to SL so they declined to bother starting next year accordingly despite an alleged offer from Rimmer to do so. Rimmer wasn't going to be the one to kill them off so they've done it themselves. Expect no more from them.

Finally TWP have been openly told Superleague do not want them as they need Toulouse for a french TV deal. The result of that is TWP failing to pay their bills a long list of which appeared in League Weekly on Monday.

Gentlemen, North American "Expansion" was nothing more than Perez trying to get Argyle his own Superleague club, on his own doorstep. It ain't going to happen. Sure there was at one time a chance of real expansion there but that died when Mr. Moore failed to find any interest in the RL World Cup in North America which was therefore pulled as unviable. 

Sadly TWP, Ottawa and New York are all equally unviable................ Now let's see who wants to discuss this and who wants to be childish and throw insults???

[JohnM]

It's worth remembering that when say a railway line expands in summer, it contains exactly the same number of molecules and weighs exactly the same as when it shrinks in the depths of winter. It does not need more atoms, nuclear building blocks, to expand. 

Similarly, we don't need more players if we are to expand. However, if we wish to grow, then we do.

[Omott91]

3 hours ago, ojx said:

While on the subject, did you know that you could fit nearly all of the RL heartlands between the continuous urban area of Hamilton to Oshawa. It is such a small game.

Both maps on the same scale.

You should compare Aussie rl territory to get a real understanding of how small the m62 is.

 Melbourne to Townsville for example. 

[RP London]

4 hours ago, ojx said:

While on the subject, did you know that you could fit nearly all of the RL heartlands between the continuous urban area of Hamilton to Oshawa. It is such a small game.

Both maps on the same scale.

right well that map has just proven that the next expansion must be hamilton and it will be a huge success.. though it might take 100 years for them to win at wembley.. look its right next to Grimsby!!

[Smudger06]

In this instance we don't need to compare the geographical size of the English heartlands to the Australian heartlands, it doesn't help our sport. 

Ojx used a map of RL heartlands to put the sport in its place but admitted leaving out East Yorkshire for convenience......but it seems to me he's also left out NSW & Queensland, PNG, Cumbria and the Auckland Region. 

[Eddie]

37 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

In this instance we don't need to compare the geographical size of the English heartlands to the Australian heartlands, it doesn't help our sport. 

Ojx used a map of RL heartlands to put the sport in its place but admitted leaving out East Yorkshire for convenience......but it seems to me he's also left out NSW & Queensland, PNG, Cumbria and the Auckland Region. 

And rural SW France. 

[HawkMan]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

You still refuse to admit that Ottawa signing a squad of SL players from here and staging their games in Canada isn't in any way "Expansion" once again (not for you but for the open minded and realists on here) expansion is about exactly what Mr. Perez said it was back in 2016. It was Canada actually developing SL players to expand the playing pool, by the method of converting grid iron players to RL and not by junior development as Perez himself had failed to achieve that whilst at Canada RL.

It was also Canada finding a NATV deal to share here, with Perez again on record on You Tube talking about big NATV contracts, none of which have ever come to pass with TWP actually having to pay themselves to get on TV. The failure to provide either of these measures of expansion has led to SL bosses openly saying they favour Toulouse because they DO develop players and there is more of a chance of a French TV deal especially with two French clubs in Superleague.

Wow, it's taken you three years to realise Rugby League here is so small we therefore don't have the resources to allow Canadian clubs to start signing up our professional players and shipping them off to Canada, and we can't afford Canadian clubs in Superleague instead of English clubs because our SKY TV deal requires a predominantly English League, because it's English fans that pay the subs.

Can you guys not understand this?  The ignorance is staggering here, every Canadian club going into SL reduces the value of the SKY contract, every squad of SL players from here sent to play in Canada to support this charade is another English club going to the wall through a lack of players, and their fans walking away from the game. 

Why not deal with reality for once?

Can you not grasp it Ray that the current SKY deal is coming to an end and the smaller replacement deal will mean many of the Championship clubs going to the wall, early this year there was an idea we would lose all but 20 clubs, who would play as SL1 & SL2.

See the current threads about championship clubs (Swinton) starting to look to grab those few places lest they go to the wall, see the discussions about clubs merging to save themselves from being left out of the English pro game and the smaller TV deal and structure. That isn't expansion is it Ray? It's contraction which means the end of the American dream.

After some terrible posts you now seem to get it that the American dream is in fact the Perez fantasy.

New York is a joke and was from the start which is why that can was kicked down the road to 2021 when there will be no room for them anyway. The news was Ottawa were accepted for the Championship for next season but they and Rimmer chose not to take that opportunity citing some mystery issue that needed to be cleared up first so they pretended they would start 2021 to save face.

But by 2021 the reduced SKY deal and the reduction of the leagues will mean many English clubs going to the wall, so it's absolutely laughable that North American clubs with nothing to offer themselves in terms of TV money will somehow be admitted to a reduced league structure. As it stands if TWP win the play off they are set to be refused in Favour of Toulouse because the SL bosses rightly want to get a French TV deal.

New York was a joke. The laugh is the idea a few NYRL shirts on sale on line proves there is a Pro NY club turning over $$Millions on the way is laughable.

Ottawa offer nothing to SL so they declined to bother starting next year accordingly despite an alleged offer from Rimmer to do so. Rimmer wasn't going to be the one to kill them off so they've done it themselves. Expect no more from them.

Finally TWP have been openly told Superleague do not want them as they need Toulouse for a french TV deal. The result of that is TWP failing to pay their bills a long list of which appeared in League Weekly on Monday.

Gentlemen, North American "Expansion" was nothing more than Perez trying to get Argyle his own Superleague club, on his own doorstep. It ain't going to happen. Sure there was at one time a chance of real expansion there but that died when Mr. Moore failed to find any interest in the RL World Cup in North America which was therefore pulled as unviable. 

Sadly TWP, Ottawa and New York are all equally unviable................ Now let's see who wants to discuss this and who wants to be childish and throw insults???

I agree with all of this, there is a prevailing view on here that TGG is ready to expand and take on other sports and establish itself in all sorts of far flung places. It's had a hundred years to grow and hasn't even got into the Midlands yet. I think the very existence of the Heartlands might give fans a distorted view of the popularity of the sport, as if it can be replicated elsewhere. The current strategy for expansion will just create little mini heartlands in places like Toronto, Belgrade etc. Is this what the game wants to be seen as, a game played in little hotspots, this isn't expansion in the sense of getting more nations playing to improve the international set up. Take UK Basketball and Ice Hockey in the UK, probably less well.off than RL, with attendances no better, probably less being indoor sports, rarely if ever see their results in the papers, limited or no terrestial coverage, but their fans I'm sure don't beat themselves up over expansion, no heartlands to distort the picture. RL.compared to these sports is doing ok, though of course those two sports are global. You won't get a better example then the MLS on how to expand, football was and probably is still loathed by traditional American sports, but the success of the MLS is phenomenal, I read recently that each club is now worth an average 182million dollars, and is now knocking on the door of the big three in The States. Investment was used to create a league, from humble beginnings in the U.S., not create teams to cart off to the English or European game. I really hope Toronto, NY, Ottowa succeed but they should play in North America and create something for themselves there, even if with only a handful of teams, it might then grow. All this expansion effort going on now should have been started a hundred years ago, yes A HUNDRED, has the game been asleep like Rip Van Winkle, it is not of course trying to expand into a vacuum, but a saturated sports market of well established games who obviously are run by very savvy execs, too savvy for RL I fear.

[Tommygilf]

5 hours ago, ojx said:

While on the subject, did you know that you could fit nearly all of the RL heartlands between the continuous urban area of Hamilton to Oshawa. It is such a small game.

Both maps on the same scale.

Despite being less than half the size the area covered here: Merseyside, Greater Manchester and the chunk of West Yorkshire included have roughly the same population as the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. 

I don't want this to turn into a willy measuring contest but population density in Western Europe vs North America is massively different.

[tms]

4 hours ago, ojx said:

According to google:

Distance Hamilton to Oshawa: 127.5 km

Distance form Liverpool to Leeds: 123.7586 km

That is using road distances, as the crow flies, it is even less. 

I left out Hull for convenience, but the point still stands that it is shocking how small the RL word is. Especially as it doesn't;'t actually include the cities of Liverpool or Manchester.

as well as hull you left out FEV c%s and wakey   FEV"s 132 km from liverpool by the way and the RL small world includes

 

RLIF World Rankings
Official Men's Rankings as of July 2019
Rank	Change*	Team	Pts%
1		Australia
2		England
3		New Zealand
4		Tonga
5		Fiji
6		France
7		Samoa
8		Scotland
9		Lebanon
10		Papua New Guinea
11		Wales
12		Ireland
13	1	Jamaica
14	1	Italy
15		United States
16	3	Greece
17	1	Malta
18	2	Norway
19	2	Serbia
20	2	Hungary
21		Canada
22		Philippines
23		Poland
24		Niue
25		Czech Republic
26		Netherlands
27		Solomon Islands
28	17	Cook Islands
29		Russia
30	2	Spain
31		Turkey
32	1	Vanuatu
33	1	Chile
34		Japan
35	5	Germany
36	1	South Africa
37	2	Ukraine
38	2	El Salvador
39	1	Hong Kong
40	2	Sweden
41		Colombia
42	3	Belgium
43		Argentina
44	2	Thailand
45	1	Brazil
46	1	Uruguay
47	2	Denmark
48	2	Bulgaria
*Change from December 2018

[HawkMan]

The game is possibly facing the real threat of having to contract if the next TV deal is as expected reduced, so arguing about the relative size of heartlands is like mice in a corner of their field squabbling over a lump of cheese whilst behind them a combine harvester is baring down ripping the field to shreds.

[RP London]

27 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

The game is possibly facing the real threat of having to contract if the next TV deal is as expected reduced, so arguing about the relative size of heartlands is like mice in a corner of their field squabbling over a lump of cheese whilst behind them a combine harvester is baring down ripping the field to shreds.

perhaps an overly dramatic reaction.. its an interesting discussion point its hardly squabbling or taking up any time that the clubs are spending on trying to get more money in.. its people on a message board discussing a point.. 

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueMan said:

OK....I'm still not convinced those maps of Greater Manchester/Liverpool and Greater Toronto are to scale, so I tried myself on Google Maps, plus adding in Sydney and Melbourne for comparison.
I don't know how up to date the Manchester satellite image is but it looks too green and rural to me. I would have thought that more urban expansion had been continuous?

 

Great observation and you should believe your eyes!   Why is Manchester greener with less of a footprint?

To cut to the chase....it has to do with controlled  land use planning and zoning for development.   Having well thought out urban planning and not run away urban development for the quick buck matters!....Great Britain is way ahead of either Canada or Australia in this regard.

It matters...and leads to a much better quality of life.

[fevtom]

2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Great observation and you should believe your eyes!   Why is Manchester greener with less of a footprint?

To cut to the chase....it has to do with controlled  land use planning and zoning for development.   Having well thought out urban planning and not run away urban development for the quick buck matters!....Great Britain is way ahead of either Canada or Australia in this regard.

It matters...and leads to a much better quality of life.

This is probably about right. For example the area between Manchester and Huddersfield is miles of rolling hills with the odd few picturesque villages, you're never going to get permission to build much so Manchester itself is built extremely dense. Despite only being a small geographically the M62 corridor population is about 14 million, around the same size of Ontario.

[fighting irish]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

After some terrible posts you now seem to get it that the American dream is in fact the Perez fantasy.

I merely asked, if there were any signs of activity in Ottawa or New York?

Please tell me which ''terrible posts'' you are referring to?

Do you mean posts I've created, or some that others have created?

I'm happy to debate my own, if you'd care to elucidate?

As far as I can remember, I don't think I've ever insulted you.

Apart from the tedious and long winded repetition of points you made many times before (in great detail), I've missed you.

[Angelic Cynic]

3 hours ago, HawkMan said:

The game is possibly facing the real threat of having to contract if the next TV deal is as expected reduced, so arguing about the relative size of heartlands is like mice in a corner of their field squabbling over a lump of cheese whilst behind them a combine harvester is baring down ripping the field to shreds.

  I listened to a podcast the other week where Johnny Davison interviewed Jack Howieson,and I got the impression that taking over Hemel Stags may result in the opportunity for former Hemel people to be involved in the sport over in Ottawa.

  Over on the other forum they are discussing the Wigan Warriors finances.It makes it clear why the elite don't want the money from the broadcast deal going outside the elite.

  The shrinkage of the game won't end just because Swinton are becoming Manchester.

  The elite will want Toronto in Super League if only for the reason that they won't be taking any of their slice of the current cake of 1.8 million per year of Sky money...or whatever it is.

  It is difficult,at the moment,to see money enough to go round to clubs outside Super League;so clubs in North America,with money,will be needed. 

[Big Picture]

20 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  I listened to a podcast the other week where Johnny Davison interviewed Jack Howieson,and I got the impression that taking over Hemel Stags may result in the opportunity for former Hemel people to be involved in the sport over in Ottawa.

  Over on the other forum they are discussing the Wigan Warriors finances.It makes it clear why the elite don't want the money from the broadcast deal going outside the elite.

  The shrinkage of the game won't end just because Swinton are becoming Manchester.

  The elite will want Toronto in Super League if only for the reason that they won't be taking any of their slice of the current cake of 1.8 million per year of Sky money...or whatever it is.

  It is difficult,at the moment,to see money enough to go round to clubs outside Super League;so clubs in North America,with money,will be needed. 

Do have a link for that podcast and/or the discussion on the other forum?

[Angelic Cynic]

5 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Do have a link for that podcast and/or the discussion on the other forum?

  Ottawa mentioned in this podcast  - https://www.spreaker.com/user/johndavidson/58-5vDvSK

  Wigan Finances - https://forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=625933

[ojx]

17 hours ago, POR said:

as well as hull you left out FEV c%s and wakey   FEV"s 132 km from liverpool by the way and the RL small world includes

 

RLIF World Rankings
Official Men's Rankings as of July 2019
Rank	Change*	Team	Pts%
1		Australia
2		England
3		New Zealand
4		Tonga
5		Fiji
6		France
7		Samoa
8		Scotland
9		Lebanon
10		Papua New Guinea
11		Wales
12		Ireland
13	1	Jamaica
14	1	Italy
15		United States
16	3	Greece
17	1	Malta
18	2	Norway
19	2	Serbia
20	2	Hungary
21		Canada
22		Philippines
23		Poland
24		Niue
25		Czech Republic
26		Netherlands
27		Solomon Islands
28	17	Cook Islands
29		Russia
30	2	Spain
31		Turkey
32	1	Vanuatu
33	1	Chile
34		Japan
35	5	Germany
36	1	South Africa
37	2	Ukraine
38	2	El Salvador
39	1	Hong Kong
40	2	Sweden
41		Colombia
42	3	Belgium
43		Argentina
44	2	Thailand
45	1	Brazil
46	1	Uruguay
47	2	Denmark
48	2	Bulgaria
*Change from December 2018

Except, only two of those countries have more than one professional team. Another three countries have only one fully professional team.The sport is unheard of to almost entire populations of the rest of those counties on that list.

[Anita Bath]

On 05/09/2019 at 11:58, ojx said:

While on the subject, did you know that you could fit nearly all of the RL heartlands between the continuous urban area of Hamilton to Oshawa. It is such a small game.

Both maps on the same scale.

But those grounds in lancashire and yorkshire dont have  Go Train stations near to them.   Awful time folks like you would have getting to them. Better keep expansion to Oshawa and Ajax.