aj1908 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Precisely what is the 'Thank You' we should say for? All those nice sandwiches the wolfpack had to pay for visiting league one and championship clubs And the free flights to see Toronto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: My words could also be a paradox, there is no mystery in what I wrote the evidence is there to be seen, trouble is Irish to many don't even realise the extent of the problem we have below the professional game and it is not improving each year it is declining a little more. I would love to be proven wrong Irish, but unless we as a sport address the situation it ain't going to improve. I was just hoping to elicit a bit more from you. I read your other post about the parlous state of the underlying game and I agree wholeheartedly. I think there's an argument that the game was in better hands when BARLA ran the amateur scene. I have posted many times about the car-boot-sale approach the games leaders seem content with, where you go on selling the contents of your wardrobe only to discover one day that the cupboard is bare. I agree, with some of our Canadian friends that profile raising (at the top end) is a part of bringing new people into the game, but we neglect the on-the-ground, nitty gritty effort of introducing kids to our game (in increasing numbers each year) at our peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Please refer me to any of the NA project backers from these shores (I refuse to use the word 'expansion' that to me is getting more participants playing and therefore "expanding" the game) who have commented or expressed any concern at all about the state of Rugby League at grass roots level, they are as rare as rocking horse droppings! And, don't even consider suggesting to me how it could be like a grape withering on the vine, no disrespect K'man but I am an eye witness of what is happening and have been so for a number of year's now, if the community game was an hospital patient it should be in the HDU (High Dependency Unit), the next ward is the Intensive Care. I am really concerned that so many people see this expansion (there said it) process is the saviour of our game, I would sooner we put the effort into sorting the game out at home first and foremost. Fine French Wine, you are mixing me up with someone wealthy enough to purchase it, I just go for the plonk and the bottom of the barrel dregs varieties, Pigswill Vinyards is my favourtie. Harry both can be done in tandem; they are not mutually exclusive but are intertwined...expansion and supporting the grass roots....just watch how the crowds will increase when the Wolfpack play over there...young kids coming to the games again...young kids dreaming of what 'could be' when they get older..... I'm not buying the poverty act...everyone knows that you are loaded...you can afford the best vintage for the good old Kayakman now can't ya? Don't go all cheap on me now Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 On 15/12/2019 at 07:35, aj1908 said: I have more hope for Ottawa because of the presence of Perez. Like France league should focus on Canada.adding as many teamd as possible to reach ceitical mass there Imo it's way too early for new York. While I have got your attention, What is your plan to populate your "critical mass" teams how many Clubs do you see is the optimum number and a time scale to acheive it, and what would be your solution to our community game crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, fighting irish said: I was just hoping to elicit a bit more from you. I read your other post about the parlous state of the underlying game and I agree wholeheartedly. I think there's an argument that the game was in better hands when BARLA ran the amateur scene. I have posted many times about the car-boot-sale approach the games leaders seem content with, where you go on selling the contents of your wardrobe only to discover one day that the cupboard is bare. I agree, with some of our Canadian friends that profile raising (at the top end) is a part of bringing new people into the game, but we neglect the on-the-ground, nitty gritty effort of introducing kids to our game (in increasing numbers each year) at our peril. Thank you for your response Irish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, Harry Stottle said: While I have got your attention, What is your plan to populate your "critical mass" teams how many Clubs do you see is the optimum number and a time scale to acheive it, and what would be your solution to our community game crisis. Wolfpack seem fine at populating their teams with some elite rugby talent They just signed a guy called sonny Bill Williams. .Google.him.hes apparently.some rugby player with a bit of talent Australia can provide as many imports as is needed There isn't an optimal number of.overseas teams Its up.to each individual.bid.to try and succeed or fail. I don't think the wolfpack have caused any decline in lower level rugby league so I don't know why you've connected the two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Kayakman said: Harry both can be done in tandem; they are not mutually exclusive but are intertwined...expansion and supporting the grass roots....just watch how the crowds will increase when the Wolfpack play over there...young kids coming to the games again...young kids dreaming of what 'could be' when they get older..... I'm not buying the poverty act...everyone knows that you are loaded...you can afford the best vintage for the good old Kayakman now can't ya? Don't go all cheap on me now Harry. Hi K'man, were I see the intertwining not meshing is in the numbers required to populate the rosters of more clubs, Wolfpack excepted who in got in first the numbers just aren't there. Poverty, it is not a charade, I will be going out this afternoon with my "little horn" busking on a street corner in the hope I can make enough over this period of goodwill to collate enough to save for a season pass to see my beloved Centurions in 2020, otherwise I will get as close as I can standing outside the ground on match days listening to the noise from within and imagining what I am missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, aj1908 said: Wolfpack seem fine at populating their teams with some elite rugby talent They just signed a guy called sonny Bill Williams. .Google.him.hes apparently.some rugby player with a bit of talent Australia can provide as many imports as is needed There isn't an optimal number of.overseas teams Its up.to each individual.bid.to try and succeed or fail. I don't think the wolfpack have caused any decline in lower level rugby league so I don't know why you've connected the two Really, OK I wil, go with your stock answer of Australia can provide all we need, it's not very original or will it be true in tbe future. I did ask you two questions the second one re our community game, I did that because I saw the emoji response you put to my post expressing my concern, it is very easy to comment as such without saying anything aj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Really, OK I wil, go with your stock answer of Australia can provide all we need, it's not very original or will it be true in tbe future. I did ask you two questions the second one re our community game, I did that because I saw the emoji response you put to my post expressing my concern, it is very easy to comment as such without saying anything aj. If rugby league is failing in parts of England this has happened over 100 years The wolfpack are.3.years old.so.i.cant see how they've caused it or made.it worse And since they don't get any money off.the rfl.you can't argue they are taking money away that could.be spent there Perhaps.you could.question all.the money the rfl has thrown at Leigh for example? Including that massive parachute payment and they still couldn't pay their players that year ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Really, OK I wil, go with your stock answer of Australia can provide all we need, it's not very original or will it be true in tbe future. I did ask you two questions the second one re our community game, I did that because I saw the emoji response you put to my post expressing my concern, it is very easy to comment as such without saying anything aj. Unless you've invented a time machine that can go into the future 20 years to take any mature canadian rugby league players and come and play for the wolfpack today, i dont think how any rational human being can argue they need to be relying upon camadian rugby players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, aj1908 said: If rugby league is failing in parts of England this has happened over 100 years The wolfpack are.3.years old.so.i.cant see how they've caused it or made.it worse And since they don't get any money off.the rfl.you can't argue they are taking money away that could.be spent there Perhaps.you could.question all.the money the rfl has thrown at Leigh for example? Including that massive parachute payment and they still couldn't pay their players that year ? The question the doubters/naysayers never answer is this: what is behind the falling player numbers in the junior/community ranks and what must be done to stop that and turn it around? I suggest that the answer is that kids take up a sport in a serious way because they dream of being the next Beckham, Gretzky, Jordan, etc. but RL in the northern hemisphere doesn't offer anything comparable to the glamour, money and fame known by those big time sports stars because it doesn't have the sort of glamorous high profile competition which the big time sports all have. RL lacking that everywhere except Australia, fewer and fewer boys and young men in the game's UK heartland are interested in making the effort needed to play RL in the pro ranks. Maybe the posters who've expressed concern about the junior or community game can provide some evidence that this is not the main reason, but they have yet to do so. If as I suggest it is the main reason, then the situation can not be turned around without the sport having the kind of glamorous high profile competition which it lacks today so that the youth of today can have the same sort of aspiration in RL as they can in other sports and for that it requires the likes of Toronto and New York and more just like them to create that glamorous high profile competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Really, OK I wil, go with your stock answer of Australia can provide all we need, it's not very original or will it be true in tbe future. I did ask you two questions the second one re our community game, I did that because I saw the emoji response you put to my post expressing my concern, it is very easy to comment as such without saying anything aj. I totally understand your concern for the community game here in particularly the north of England Harry. It is one that I share. My overall concern however is that the game itself isn't big enough to grab kids attention these days. Our game needs to be aspirational for youngsters and right now aside from maybe at best 6 clubs it isn't really. If we keep standing still we're actually shrinking. Sadly fewer and fewer kids are growing up wanting to play for the teams we support. North American clubs (or clubs from wherever) come into this equation by providing more full time professional spots for British players, A genuine alternative for those with an adventurous mindset and a bit of glitz and glam that the game really has lacked since the turn of the millennium. I'd argue it could also make expansion in the UK much more sellable as currently the image problem of being a bit of a "northern oik sport" is diminished. I also get the sense from those involved in these new Super League ventures such as Toronto or Toulouse actually do buy into the north of England and buy the trendy "pretty green" style of the north too and could help us build on that. So in general they help with the image of the game, something incredibly vital in this new social media age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 30 minutes ago, aj1908 said: Unless you've invented a time machine that can go into the future 20 years to take any mature canadian rugby league players and come and play for the wolfpack today, i dont think how any rational human being can argue they need to be relying upon camadian rugby players 20 years not nearly long enough AJ, 2 generations at least if not 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Big Picture said: The question the doubters/naysayers never answer is this: what is behind the falling player numbers in the junior/community ranks and what must be done to stop that and turn it around? I suggest that the answer is that kids take up a sport in a serious way because they dream of being the next Beckham, Gretzky, Jordan, etc. but RL in the northern hemisphere doesn't offer anything comparable to the glamour, money and fame known by those big time sports stars because it doesn't have the sort of glamorous high profile competition which the big time sports all have. RL lacking that everywhere except Australia, fewer and fewer boys and young men in the game's UK heartland are interested in making the effort needed to play RL in the pro ranks. Maybe the posters who've expressed concern about the junior or community game can provide some evidence that this is not the main reason, but they have yet to do so. If as I suggest it is the main reason, then the situation can not be turned around without the sport having the kind of glamorous high profile competition which it lacks today so that the youth of today can have the same sort of aspiration in RL as they can in other sports and for that it requires the likes of Toronto and New York and more just like them to create that glamorous high profile competition. I think people just make up random stuff because they don't like Toronto wolfpack for other reasons or are just trolling because they know it's a popular topic and gets lots of attention I'll bet if Toronto got a tv deal paying a billion dollars people would still complain There isn't a lot you can really critique them for. Despite the rfl putting so many obstacles.in their path they've still made it to super league, two years earlier than planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: 20 years not nearly long enough AJ, 2 generations at least if not 3. Well dr who has the tardis. Can we.borrow that ? How come in 3 generations England can't produce enough players to fill only 12.teams ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Hi K'man, were I see the intertwining not meshing is in the numbers required to populate the rosters of more clubs, Wolfpack excepted who in got in first the numbers just aren't there. Poverty, it is not a charade, I will be going out this afternoon with my "little horn" busking on a street corner in the hope I can make enough over this period of goodwill to collate enough to save for a season pass to see my beloved Centurions in 2020, otherwise I will get as close as I can standing outside the ground on match days listening to the noise from within and imagining what I am missing. Para 1: You fail to take into account young fellas from the Pacific region of the world...all kinds of them...just a little rule change is required...simple. Para 2: Collecting for the Salvation Army doesn't count and going to the nearby pub to watch the game and have a few doesn't count either! I can read betwixt the lines on you, you old Rascal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Harry, you've touched upon the problem yourself already. It's not just that the game isn't attracting kids to start playing, more significantly it isn't retaining the best of them to go on to play professionally. And why is this. THEY CAN'T MAKE ANY MONEY AT IT! The old system is collapsing and you're afraid the arrival of rich overseas teams will hasten the game's demise. Au contraire. Rich overseas teams means more players are needed and all players will be paid more. Kids will see the buzz from the new teams and new players - admittedly most will be from Oz for the first few years - but that will reboot the system. Kids start playing again. Teens will continue playing because they can see themselves making a decent living from the sport. And it will not just be in northern England anymore that this occurs but also in North America and its near-inexhaustible pool of talented athletes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 32 minutes ago, SL17 said: The youth department was left in the name of fame. The fame was always going to end some day. Community clubs are working harder to keep the sport alive whilst still taking a back seat to the non existent pathway. The product SL was the saviour of the game, but also the downfall of the game. Another closed shop will end the game as we know it. Expansion clubs would again be for nothing. As without youth you have no game. nah the game is stagnating because its spending money it doesnt have on clubs which arent viable. if the original super league had happened the game would be way better off. nostalgia is fine but the world has changed. the reality is many clubs arent viable, and there is little the RFL can do to change this. league needs to accept it doesn the money of soccer and focus on the clubs which can grow the game. england seems to produce some very good players as shown by them starring in the nrl. the canadians are right in what they are saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, SL17 said: The youth department was left in the name of fame. The fame was always going to end some day. Community clubs are working harder to keep the sport alive whilst still taking a back seat to the non existent pathway. The product SL was the saviour of the game, but also the downfall of the game. Another closed shop will end the game as we know it. Expansion clubs would again be for nothing. As without youth you have no game. aj1908 is bang on. Youth will continue in the game if they see they can make a decent living at it. The existing structure of the game clearly cannot and thus the game is dying. But expansion clubs can and will and are thus the future of a game that otherwise seems to have little long-term future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, aj1908 said: nah the game is stagnating because its spending money it doesnt have on clubs which arent viable. if the original super league had happened the game would be way better off. nostalgia is fine but the world has changed. the reality is many clubs arent viable, and there is little the RFL can do to change this. league needs to accept it doesn the money of soccer and focus on the clubs which can grow the game. england seems to produce some very good players as shown by them starring in the nrl. the canadians are right in what they are saying The original Super League couldn't have happened within the established structure of the English game though, because unlike the pro game in Australia the teams were in the wrong places for that. Cobbling together three small town teams and calling the result Calder wouldn't have been any more Super than having two of those three in the top tier as exists now. Likewise adding a few big city overseas teams and making them jump through hoops to be accepted won't do the trick either. All those approaches are nothing more than tarting up a small time league and claiming that it's Super, which won't fool anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Big Picture said: The original Super League couldn't have happened within the established structure of the English game though, because unlike the pro game in Australia the teams were in the wrong places for that. Cobbling together three small town teams and calling the result Calder wouldn't have been any more Super than having two of those three in the top tier as exists now. Likewise adding a few big city overseas teams and making them jump through hoops to be accepted won't do the trick either. All those approaches are nothing more than tarting up a small time league and claiming that it's Super, which won't fool anyone. The top six English clubs certainly form the basis of a super league You'll.never get a league full of expansion teams without a base of those English clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 5 hours ago, TIWIT said: aj1908 is bang on. Youth will continue in the game if they see they can make a decent living at it. The existing structure of the game clearly cannot and thus the game is dying. But expansion clubs can and will and are thus the future of a game that otherwise seems to have little long-term future. it wont die in england. it will just stay where it is. some people are happy with it as it is. others arent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 14 hours ago, TIWIT said: Harry, you've touched upon the problem yourself already. It's not just that the game isn't attracting kids to start playing, more significantly it isn't retaining the best of them to go on to play professionally. And why is this. THEY CAN'T MAKE ANY MONEY AT IT! The old system is collapsing and you're afraid the arrival of rich overseas teams will hasten the game's demise. Au contraire. Rich overseas teams means more players are needed and all players will be paid more. Kids will see the buzz from the new teams and new players - admittedly most will be from Oz for the first few years - but that will reboot the system. Kids start playing again. Teens will continue playing because they can see themselves making a decent living from the sport. And it will not just be in northern England anymore that this occurs but also in North America and its near-inexhaustible pool of talented athletes. That would be great if that happened Tiwit, we are seemingly at opposite ends of the spectrum, will you be hitching a lift in my TARDIS that AJ says i posses or have you got your own? Seriously, I would love you to be correct but as I said to K'man I am here witnessing what is happening and the picture I see is as dark as the one I am painting, as I have said on more than one occasion we really need to see and learn from Toronto before opening the doors to other teams in virgin territories, anyone who thinks everything is going to be rosy are deluding themselves there will be pluses and there will be mistakes, 3 years of a yet to be signed off prototype is not enough time to evaluate the process and go into full production, and all the while the supply chain is faltering, that needs to be addressed at source not just hoping that a couple of new outlets will appease the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Funkhouser Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 45 minutes ago, aj1908 said: The top six English clubs certainly form the basis of a super league You'll.never get a league full of expansion teams without a base of those English clubs The top 6 from which season...or a made up subjective top 6..? So the dream is 6 "English" and how many "expansion"...?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Just now, Marty Funkhouser said: The top 6 from which season...or a made up subjective top 6..? So the dream is 6 "English" and how many "expansion"...?? dream lol you make it sound like i have an agenda. love it. id be happy if there were 20 big english clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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