Tommygilf Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Cheshire Setter said: Yes that’s right but I mean immediately after he’d got to his feet. I’m not saying Hicks would have changed his mind but myself and most fans I know didn’t think it was a try until the replay, and Knowles didn’t leap up claiming it. Whether that would have made a difference who knows but I thought I’d mention it. I totally agree with you. If I thought I'd scored a try 2 minutes into a challenge cup final at Wembley and the ref didn't give it I'd be going berserk! I read it like you did that the lack of celebration or even protest etc indicated to me that he had not got it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 It is amazing how many barmpot fans there are over this on facebook on the RFL statement comments. The amount of people justifying something 'needed to be said' just because they happen to support the club is staggering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goughy Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 3 hours ago, scotchy1 said: Jesus, can the game just employ someone who can write? Just one person and we can share them around. That RFL one is stupid as well. Yeah, it is unbelievable. Both the article and the RFL's response are awful. If we apply basic BLUF then the take away from the RFL response is that they are sad! Is that really the main point? Poorly written and equally poorly structured. Trying to be positive though, at least the RFL are consistently bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Prendle Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 St. Helens sense of entitlement continues to grow doesn't it? It reminds me of when it got to the point with Ferguson at Man U when he was incredulous that a decision would be made against them, or that someone else should have the audacity to win a trophy. The problem with Saints is not the biased match officials, it's the set of bottlers they have on the pitch, and the classless buffoon in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haskey Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Does McManus think he is God. Referees are human, they make mistakes, and decisions are made that they see in the spur of the moment. There would not be a game without them On the terraces we love to belittle them, but usually they are correct, and we can continue our moans in the pub etc. But we do not openly criticise them in the press. Shame on you McManus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 6 hours ago, GeordieSaint said: To be fair, I don't think that's just RL supporters; absolutely prevalent in football as well (which I also enjoy as a sport). I think in the country itself, we lack the ability to sit back, analyse an event and topic and then come up with an impartial decision based on fact and truth. Politics, sport... we wear our hearts on our sleeves and are incredibly biased in our viewpoint and rarely compromise with difference. Same with the Americans, Australians et al... yep maybe... but sometime's the periods of screaming of off-side every play, or forward..... isn't replicated in football. They may moan about a decision but their isn't the screaming for long periods of whatever is decided the ref isn't being fair.... as I say i'st not the disagreement of decisions... of which many can't see what happened from where they stand/sit... its the constant stream sometimes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, redjonn said: yep maybe... but sometime's the periods of screaming of off-side every play, or forward..... isn't replicated in football. They may moan about a decision but their isn't the screaming for long periods of whatever is decided the ref isn't being fair.... as I say i'st not the disagreement of decisions... of which many can't see what happened from where they stand/sit... its the constant stream sometimes... I think that's just the nature of the 2 games. Unfortunately the stop start nature of Rugby League with the crucial play the ball lends itself to complaints on practically every play the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, Damien said: I think that's just the nature of the 2 games. Unfortunately the stop start nature of Rugby League with the crucial play the ball lends itself to complaints on practically every play the ball. I think that's right. At every play there are appeals for holding down, not playing the ball correctly, forward pass, offside, high tackle - it is relentless. I try and just chill out a bit and watch the game. Sure the odd pass may drift forward, but that will happen either way, the odd player may be stood a yard offside, but ug ain't a big issue, and so on. I agree with redjonn, it is draining, I dont known why people get so worked up about thing that arent that important. FWIW, I think complaints about the no-try are fair game, it was a crucial decision and decisions should be up for debate, but once it goes into the wider criticisms and conspiracy claims (what else is the link to a press article 10 days earlier meant to mean?), then people are losing the plot. There are probably 20 decisions that we could debate about the Cup final, but that would do it a disservice, it was a good entertaining game, but Saints have now made it all about the ref, removed any credit from Warrington (despite all the weasel worded false credit) and basically embarrassed themselves, bringing the game into disrepute. Well done Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 38 minutes ago, Damien said: I think that's just the nature of the 2 games. Unfortunately the stop start nature of Rugby League with the crucial play the ball lends itself to complaints on practically every play the ball. I agree with this but we shouldn't be in this position. I mentioned on the Catalan HKR match thread (a game that became almost unwatchable at times) that the NRL and Super League are almost completely different sports now based on how the play the ball is policed and the complete and utter mess it creates over here. Every single play the ball over here has hands in, players locked in, defenders and ball carriers falling over in the ruck and the attempted milking of a penalty literally every single play. We could change it overnight and make the sport a hundred times better. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 St Helens are well shut of Holbrook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullFat Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 What amazes me is the certainty that we all have that Hicks got the call wrong. As a Wire fan I thought he had too until I read a thread from ex-ref Ian Smith on twitter. He explained the guidelines for touching down a moving ball and hands on the side of the ball are not enough. He said the BBC didn't do the ref any favours with the angle of the replay they showed. So fans started posting their own pictures. He replied to a few that thought their pictures proved it was a try by saying that they proved it was no try. So that's 2 refs, with no axe to grind both thinking no try. So if Hicks goes to the screen, it goes up as a no try and from what they're saying it would not have been turned over. For me the disallowing of Lineham's try was the more controversial decision, again sent up as no try but would have stood in 99% of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Setter Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 7 hours ago, FullFat said: until I read a thread from ex-ref Ian Smith on twitter. He explained the guidelines for touching down a moving ball and hands on the side of the ball are not enough Intriguing. Glad you posted that. Will have to look at Ian’s Twitter. Just to make sure though, he didn’t once meet anyone connected with the Warrington club did he? That may have influenced his interpretation of the downward pressure law. Also, isn’t Steve Ganson from St Helens? Is that why they have gotten away with so many forward passes and diving at the play the ball? I’ve probably just made that up in all honesty, unless I read it in a match programme or something, which of course makes it true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 8 hours ago, FullFat said: What amazes me is the certainty that we all have that Hicks got the call wrong. As a Wire fan I thought he had too until I read a thread from ex-ref Ian Smith on twitter. He explained the guidelines for touching down a moving ball and hands on the side of the ball are not enough. He said the BBC didn't do the ref any favours with the angle of the replay they showed. So fans started posting their own pictures. He replied to a few that thought their pictures proved it was a try by saying that they proved it was no try. So that's 2 refs, with no axe to grind both thinking no try. So if Hicks goes to the screen, it goes up as a no try and from what they're saying it would not have been turned over. For me the disallowing of Lineham's try was the more controversial decision, again sent up as no try but would have stood in 99% of games. The Smith discussion is interesting, but he doesn't categorically come down on one side or the other. He does say that there is doubt as some screen grabs show fingers on the side of the ball. He basically thinks the Video Ref would have sided with whatever the ref sent it up as, as it was probably 50:50, meaning Hicks would have sent it as no try, and that would stand. I'm not sure I totally agree with him, and he does talk about downward pressure being a rule for over a hundred years, yet I dont seem to recall that being in the rulebook. He does say he thought the Lineham no try was more controversial. That was a pretty bizarre decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Browny Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Cheshire Setter said: Just to make sure though, he didn’t once meet anyone connected with the Warrington club did he? That may have influenced his interpretation of the downward pressure law. It is well known that he takes his summer holidays in Bewsey. Compromised. I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 Had Hicks made a bad call against Wire, we could have linked it to him hating us because of the death threat. Had Child been ref and made a bad call then we could have complained that he has a vendetta against Hill due to the running battle in France a few weeks earlier. And so on, it can be done for every ref, either side, with tenuous reasons why a ref would have it in for you. But ultimately, if you are questioning a decision, and then making links to meetings with the CEO of the club you deemed to benefit, then there is no other explanation than you are claiming something really sinister has gone on. It really is an outrageous article. It is one thing lunatic fans doing this on twitter, but in an official club publication it should be condemned by everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Setter Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dave T said: He does say he thought the Lineham no try was more controversial. That was a pretty bizarre decision. Quite often I think it’s in the phraseology used by the on-field referee. Hicks asked Thaler to check whether there was contact with Goodwin, and that’s exactly what he checked - Lineham made contact with Goodwin even though it was the Saints tackler that caused him to make contact. Thaler had to give it that way based on what he’s been asked to do so fair enough. If Hicks has asked Thaler to check whether Lineham used Goodwin illegally in the act of scoring I’m almost certain it would have been overruled and given as a try, because Thaler’s mindset is now that he’s looking for an impeded Saints tackler rather than a gentle brush of the material on Goodwins shorts. Since there isn’t any clear guidance for effectively communicating I have to have sympathy for the referees and VRs... They’re essentially lawyers acting to the letter of the law in the task they’ve been given. It’s up to some common sense directives from the RFL (yes I know, two words you don’t often see in the same sentence) so we have some clear guidance going forward. In any case, all this is irrelevant - Warrington won because Saints tried to blow them away in the first 20 and failed. We see it all the time, where a less talented team survives an initial onslaught and goes on to win the game. Finals are not the occasion to try the flat-track bully method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, Dave T said: Had Hicks made a bad call against Wire, we could have linked it to him hating us because of the death threat. Had Child been ref and made a bad call then we could have complained that he has a vendetta against Hill due to the running battle in France a few weeks earlier. And so on, it can be done for every ref, either side, with tenuous reasons why a ref would have it in for you. But ultimately, if you are questioning a decision, and then making links to meetings with the CEO of the club you deemed to benefit, then there is no other explanation than you are claiming something really sinister has gone on. It really is an outrageous article. It is one thing lunatic fans doing this on twitter, but in an official club publication it should be condemned by everyone. To be fair I think it has been condemned on here almost unanimously, including Saints fans. Only one poster is arguing to the contrary... to be fair he does post enough in these discussions for it to feel like more! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: To be fair I think it has been condemned on here almost unanimously, including Saints fans. Only one poster is arguing to the contrary... to be fair he does post enough in these discussions for it to feel like more! As I've said, I think we have a reasonable lot on this board in the main. It is very easy to find segments of Saints fans supporting McManus on this. But, being a supporter is an odd thing, many will give blind loyalty and defend every action. Personally I am pretty comfortable with criticising Wire if they deserve it. They do things I am not a fan of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 28 minutes ago, Dave T said: But, being a supporter is an odd thing, many will give blind loyalty and defend every action. Personally I am pretty comfortable with criticising Wire if they deserve it. They do things I am not a fan of. Yes, I know. My hometown club has done plenty of things I don't agree with and I have been very vocally opposed to on these boards. Supporters not criticising, or defending, a clearly outrageous statement is a form of blind loyalty that comes from conformity... I have a word for it, I call it groupthink! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELBOWSEYE Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 24 minutes ago, Dave T said: . Personally I am pretty comfortable with criticising Wire if they deserve it. They do things I am not a fan of. Can't say I've noticed you criticise Warrington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris22 Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2019/09/01/statement-chairman-strongly-reiterates-view-on-wembley-referee-selection/ Doesn't seem that this is going away! Reaffirms my view that Saints are trying to develop an "us vs them" mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 Nothing more than yet another dig at The RFL from Eamon. Tiresome now. We get that he doesn’t like the RFL but dragging the clubs name through the mud to have a go at them is too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plow Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 42 minutes ago, Chris22 said: https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2019/09/01/statement-chairman-strongly-reiterates-view-on-wembley-referee-selection/ Doesn't seem that this is going away! Reaffirms my view that Saints are trying to develop an "us vs them" mentality. He’s digging a hole now. Hicks made 1 bad call but Saints were fairly beaten on the day. Surely this can’t be good for Saints going into the playoffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Setter Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 “My matchday programme notes seem to have created a lot of heat and light, which is probably a good thing as the core issue at hand could not be more serious for our game” A quick copy and paste into Google Translate results in this: “My matchday programme notes seem to have created a lot of heat and light, which is probably a good thing as it detracts even more from our teams failed attempt to blow Warrington away in the first 20 minutes, and our lack of resilience in mentally overcoming an unusual position of being behind” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Setter Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 11 minutes ago, Mr Plow said: He’s digging a hole now. Hicks made 1 bad call but Saints were fairly beaten on the day. Surely this can’t be good for Saints going into the playoffs I wonder if McManus would be happy to be interviewed over the situation. Perhaps he could give his opinion on Walmsley’s incorrect play-the-ball two tackles prior to the no-try, that should have resulted in a Warrington penalty. I am actually starting to feel sorry for the Saints fans now. Before, it was funny to see McManus respond like a sore loser, but now it’s just creating a situation similar (or even worse) to the long-running anti-Wigan sentiment amongst fans. It’s the genuine fans who will suffer the consequences, and McManus will eventually quietly disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.