Man of Kent Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 1 minute ago, DEANO said: Hmmm. Because my view is different to yours it makes me an idiot? Not just you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 1 hour ago, johnh1 said: If Saints has been crowned champions 10 weeks ago, what would clubs like Wigan, Warrington, Salford, Hull, Castleford and Catalans have been playing for for these last 10 weeks? The season would have been over and the season would have died a death. As it is, the excitement is building up to yet another wonderful climax at Old Trafford. I just don’t understand why certain people want to do away with this. It isn’t so much the last 10 weeks that are the issue, more that games at the start of the season are largely irrelevant as long as you make the 5 and hit form at the end of the season. As someone else intimated earlier in the thread, I don’t think the gap would have been anywhere near as big if top of the league was considered to be the main prize, but even if it was, it just gives everyone else a standard to aim for. As it is, it’s entirely conceivable that a side just hits form at the right time, catches Saints on an off day and wins the thing. Some might consider that to be a great story but personally I feel that is what the purpose of the Challenge Cup is, while the league should reward consistency. Some years you might get a bit of a walkover of a race, but that just makes the tight races - and the great champion sides - all the more memorable, whereas personally I find a lot of the Grand Finals kind of merge in to one; a feeling of manufactured drama rather than allowing it to naturally happen on the field. I do appreciate the whole event that the Grand Final creates - I’ve been to enough of them over the years - but I do feel a greater emphasis on the league would quite comfortably see an extra 75,000 fans added across the clubs over the course of a season. In turn, no play offs would mean an earlier end to the season and mean more scope for international games which is really where we’re going to get the exposure that the game needs, especially as I feel the Grand Final really isn’t as big a deal as we think it is outside of RL circles (best example I can give is being on holiday in recent years and struggling to find bars that are showing the game instead of any football or RU games that clash) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Browny Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 God, is it AiredaleMike time already? The years seem to be flying by. I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 This topic again. Is it post season already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 8 hours ago, DEANO said: It would seem most people would rather watch 29 rounds of glorified friendlies and then a few meaningful games at the end of the season Professional Rugby League players play one of the toughest sports on the planet for our entertainment. They break bones and even rupture testicles and perforate their bowels battling for the League points on offer. Whatever system we individually prefer to crown our champions, the league games are not friendlies. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 32 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: in 2015 Leeds won the LLS with the last play of the regular season in a three quarters empty Huddersfield, they lifted the GF in a full Old Trafford. Guess which looked like the way to crown champions. You’ve kind of unwittingly proved the point of the Grand Final devaluing the regular season. Had the title been on the line, you can absolutely guarantee there would have been a very decent crowd at Huddersfield - and the other contenders that night - for what could have been RL’s Aguero moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 24 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said: Had the title been on the line, you can absolutely guarantee there would have been a very decent crowd at Huddersfield - But we know there wouldn't have been... the GF is a great occasion and provid one of Sky Sports biggest viewing figures of the year. Far better than the old system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said: But we know there wouldn't have been... the GF is a great occasion and provid one of Sky Sports biggest viewing figures of the year. Far better than the old system. A final day straight fight for the title would provide tremendous viewing figures, on the proviso that Sky took it seriously with live games simultaneously on Arena/Action with a live update show on SSN etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said: A final day straight fight for the title would provide tremendous viewing figures, on the proviso that Sky took it seriously with live games simultaneously on Arena/Action with a live update show on SSN etc. And this season??? It's been finished as a contest for 4 months or more. You have got what you wanted the LLS has been won - I'm assuming you went to the match when it was presented to Saints. Come GF night just dont watch marra, the rest of us will be though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said: And this season??? It's been finished as a contest for 4 months or more. You have got what you wanted the LLS has been won - I'm assuming you went to the match when it was presented to Saints. Come GF night just dont watch marra, the rest of us will be though. I’ve acknowledged the pros and cons and figured it is a debate well worth having. Clearly I’m wrong. Good lord, when did this country become so polarised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 12 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said: I’ve acknowledged the pros and cons and figured it is a debate well worth having. Clearly I’m wrong. Good lord, when did this country become so polarised? Sorry marra, thought this was a forum for discussion. We can have a peoples vote on this subject if you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Just now, Mr Frisky said: Sorry marra, thought this was a forum for discussion. We can have a peoples vote on this subject if you want? Your post presented nothing in the way of discussion and instead was an unnecessarily aggressive post, especially when you consider that I’d already addressed your point about this season’s points gap in my previous post. Just because I would prefer to see a trial return of first-past-the-post doesn’t automatically mean I automatically refuse to even acknowledge the Grand Final taking place. I’ve attended plenty of them in the past and this year I will be looking for a bar in Palmanova that will be showing the game ahead of any football or RU games that are on at the same time. Polarised, as I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 11 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said: Your post presented nothing in the way of discussion and instead was an unnecessarily aggressive post, especially when you consider that I’d already addressed your point about this season’s points gap in my previous post. Just because I would prefer to see a trial return of first-past-the-post doesn’t automatically mean I automatically refuse to even acknowledge the Grand Final taking place. I’ve attended plenty of them in the past and this year I will be looking for a bar in Palmanova that will be showing the game ahead of any football or RU games that are on at the same time. Polarised, as I say. Calm down kidda, it's a RL fan forum with a pack of idiots talking gibberish, especiallyon a Friday night..... I lost you half way through your rant, so I take it you now agree the GF is the best way to finish the season and crown the champions- I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 20 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said: Calm down kidda, it's a RL fan forum with a pack of idiots talking gibberish, especiallyon a Friday night..... I lost you half way through your rant, so I take it you now agree the GF is the best way to finish the season and crown the champions- I agree with you. No, I don’t feel it is the best way to crown the champions as by definition it doesn’t necessarily reward the most consistent side throughout the season and in turn has a negative effect on the regular season as a whole, an opinion that I have found to be somewhat common when working in RL for the last 15 years. However, I won’t be cutting my nose off to spite my face and will watch the play offs as at the end of the day I’m a fan of the game and even a contrived knock out system is better than nowt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said: No, I don’t feel it is the best way to crown the champions as by definition it doesn’t necessarily reward the most consistent side throughout the season and in turn has a negative effect on the regular season as a whole, an opinion that I have found to be somewhat common when working in RL for the last 15 years. However, I won’t be cutting my nose off to spite my face and will watch the play offs as at the end of the day I’m a fan of the game and even a contrived knock out system is better than nowt. You dont like the GF and full stops or commers in your grammar by the looks of things son.... Roll on the play offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Just now, Mr Frisky said: You dont like the GF and full stops or commers in your grammar by the looks of things son.... Roll on the play offs. Other than the full stops and commers (sic) that are there, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 If a team can't win in the most pressurised environment they don't deserve to be called champions. Saints so far haven't displayed all the qualities champions need to display - they've looked like they may crumble when the pressure is really on. If they can overcome their flakiness to win the Grand Final then they will be absolutely worthy champions. If they can't (as it looks like from Wembley and McManus's petrified ranting) then their weaknesses will have been exposed and they will have to go away, address them, come back and win when it matters before being worthy of claiming the ultimate prize. FWIW while I'm here, and I know there is one poster who is obsessed with this, but the Grand Final is nothing to do with Sky; the execs in Isleworth really don't spend their time running our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Rover Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said: A final day straight fight for the title would provide tremendous viewing figures, on the proviso that Sky took it seriously with live games simultaneously on Arena/Action with a live update show on SSN etc. Next week St Helens play a Hull side in poor form so if St Helens and Wigan were seperated by points difference instead of 16 points then it would be would be an anti climax as it is highly likely that Saints would win and Wigans game wouldn't matter. Plus with a Grand Final you get a final day straight fight for the title every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 14 hours ago, Whippet13 said: And even football has playoffs for promotion in all its professional leagues. An overwhelming percentage of promoted teams in soccer are promoted via first past the post. Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 India are actually cricket World Cup champions because they finished top of the league stage after each team had played all the other teams an equal number of times. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, gingerjon said: India are actually cricket World Cup champions because they finished top of the league stage after each team had played all the other teams an equal number of times. You'd be very popular on some parts of twitter/facebook if you sent that out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 Just now, Tommygilf said: You'd be very popular on some parts of twitter/facebook if you sent that out! There's not quite enough allegations of a convoluted conspiracy though. You really need that to get traction. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 15 hours ago, AiredaleMike said: Hi Tommy, There are of course mediocre teams in every sport, and it is of course a relative term. This season, everyone is mediocre compared to Saints, as 16 points difference attests. So, if Saints don't win it, a mediocre team will. Why then reward a team that only put together a handful of good performances towards the end of the season. This system has to be an reward for mediocrity. The Rhinos for example have won many a Grand Final with a mediocre team/season. So mediocrity isn't the problem per se, it is rewarding mediocrity that is the problem. Hi Mike, Like I said previously, winning the LLS is all well and good but in the current system is only one measure of success and not regarded as the highest. Not only have Saints played the majority of their games against bottom half of the table sides due to loop fixtures, but other teams haven't had the pressure of having to chase them to be champions. If Wigan or Warrington knew they had to be as good as Saints all year to be crowned champions I'm sure they would have planned and played differently. Approaches to the League are clearly different. Wigan have certainly gone down the route trodden by Leeds in 2011 and 2012 of coming good at the right time and building into a season this year - prepared to take losses (not too many) because the eyes are on the bigger prize. By contrast based on the past 2 years Holbrook's philosophy seems to be that he wants his teams to assert themselves in the comp early on as a contender. Each has its merits. The Leeds example of mediocrity you give is interesting. I assume you're referring to the 2011 and 2012 wins from 5th? Its worth pointing out that in both those seasons Leeds reached the Challenge Cup Final and in the SL playoffs had only not reached the grand final once since 2007 - losing in a semi to eventual champions Wigan in 2010 iirc. So whilst Leeds definitely had a bad patch mid season, JJB's quote about the team being like Meerkats and only wanting to play in the dark comes to mind, they were still far from a mediocre team. Sir Alex Ferguson's 2012/13 Man United title winning squad has been described as 'distinctly average' and worse, yet they still won a title under FPTP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyther_Matt Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said: Next week St Helens play a Hull side in poor form so if St Helens and Wigan were seperated by points difference instead of 16 points then it would be would be an anti climax as it is highly likely that Saints would win and Wigans game wouldn't matter. Plus with a Grand Final you get a final day straight fight for the title every year. Your final sentence is partly what I mean though. We’re at a stage where we have artificially created this end of season drama to the extent that, in my mind at least, so many of the Grand Finals and it’s winning sides have merged in to one because we’re resting everything on a 80 minute performance instead of a full season of performances. Yes you might get some years where there isn’t much of a race, but that is exactly what makes the good ones all the more memorable. Imagine the 1994 title race happening these days and what Sky could do with it if they played on the same night with simultaneous broadcasts, a live Sky Sports News switching between the grounds, helicopter ready and waiting with the trophy etc. It might sound daft, but sometimes we need bad games/bad seasons/bad teams or else how do we know when there are great ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said: It might sound daft, but sometimes we need bad games/bad seasons/bad teams or else how do we know when there are great ones? We've had bad seasons; everything between 1972 to 2004, then 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2019 for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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