Natural place in the game

[Eddie]

Where do fans think their team’s natural place in the game is? By that I mean what are your general expectations over the medium term based on history, if that makes sense?

Eg I expect Wigan fans think they should be in the top two or three every season based on the size of the club and winning history. As a non RL example I think most Norwich fans see us a yo-yo club between the top two divisions and are quite happy with that, whereas Leeds fans might think they should really be a mainstay in the Premier League based on the size of the club. 

[Eddie]

I was asking about Rugby League, clearly. Had been talking about it at work in relation to football and I wondered what RL fans thought too, but obviously nobody is interested so fair enough. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

I think clubs can be split into 3 groups plus London. In most years this is what their fans expect;

Leeds, Wigan, Saints - The big 3, fans expect their club to be challenging for trophies 

Warrington, Hull, Catalans, Cas - Fans expect their club to be challenging the big 3 rather than actually win trophies and are excited once they reach the semi final stage of a competition 

Salford, Huddersfield, Hull kr, Wakefield - Fans expect their club to be mid table early season, but then are often just happy to survive 

London - Survival would be an incredible achievement 

[Eddie]

Agreed. Widnes maybe think they should be in that bottom group too, and I imagine Bradford think in reality they should be in the middle group. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I think clubs can be split into 3 groups plus London. In most years this is what their fans expect;

Leeds, Wigan, Saints - The big 3, fans expect their club to be challenging for trophies 

Warrington, Hull, Catalans, Cas - Fans expect their club to be challenging the big 3 rather than actually win trophies and are excited once they reach the semi final stage of a competition 

Salford, Huddersfield, Hull kr, Wakefield - Fans expect their club to be mid table early season, but then are often just happy to survive 

London - Survival would be an incredible achievement 

I'd agree with a lot of that. I think Warrington are close to breaking into that top tier but they have to win a SL Trophy to legitimise that place imo. Hull are perennial 'sleeping giants' that never seem to wake up. Cas are another step up in the evolution of a team from a team like London IMO, they do extraordinary things with minimal facilities and finance. Catalans still have a mentality problem and Shaun Wane is the man to sort it out imo. Huddersfield went through a phase of being contenders at the start of the decade but have tailed off massively.

[redjonn]

6 hours ago, Eddie said:

I was asking about Rugby League, clearly. Had been talking about it at work in relation to football and I wondered what RL fans thought too, but obviously nobody is interested so fair enough. 

I thought it was a good comparison to use as I suspect a lot of us are aware of soccer and the teams standing in that game.

[Spike]

As a workington fan we should really be in the championship 

[Cheshire Setter]

12 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Warrington, Hull, Catalans, Cas - Fans expect their club to be challenging the big 3 rather than actually win trophies and are excited once they reach the semi final stage of a competition

Not true.  Warrington fans expect to win trophies, not challenge Wigan, Saints and Leeds .   We have the financial clout and have used it, so far bringing moderate success - 4 trophies, 2 hubcaps and 11 finals.   I say moderate success in terms of a return on money invested - I think we've underachieved in that regard because we still have to win the big one which is obviously what the fans want.

However, being a realist I cannot argue with what we've achieved as a club - in 15 years we've rekindled our place as a big club, own our ground and we compete in big finals and win trophies (just not THAT trophy).   Times are good and the club is healthy and self-sustaining, BUT we expect more.

11 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think Warrington are close to breaking into that top tier but they have to win a SL Trophy to legitimise that place imo.

 

[Mr Plow]

I personally think we have 6 big/ potentially big clubs 

Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Warrington- the current ‘big four’ regularly win trophies and appear in finals

Hull- lots of potential, big stadium, big fan base, big underachievers 

Bradford- If they get their act together they could return to the top, SL champions and have good following

[Cdd]

Wigan. Competing for trophies every year with home grown players in the team. Barring a quick poor spell in the mid 00’s we’ve fulfilled that pretty well over the past few decades. I’d like to see us win the WCC a bit more but it’s a shame that the current gap between us and the NRL prohibits that. 

Bradford are the obvious club who are not currently fulfilling their potential. Super League would be much better off if they were there averaging around the 10k mark. Big club currently struggling. 

 

[Rupert Prince]

On 06/09/2019 at 16:53, Eddie said:

Where do fans think their team’s natural place in the game is? By that I mean what are your general expectations over the medium term based on history, if that makes sense?

Eg I expect Wigan fans think they should be in the top two or three every season based on the size of the club and winning history. As a non RL example I think most Norwich fans see us a yo-yo club between the top two divisions and are quite happy with that, whereas Leeds fans might think they should really be a mainstay in the Premier League based on the size of the club. 

Why take Wigan as an example? Wigan were relegated once.  They have had long lean years.

St Helens once appointed Eddie Cunningham!  They thought signing Ben Barba was a neat idea.

The record books are there to see, and it does not matter (Mr McMannus) whatever anybody says... the scores are all in the papers.

No one should get peas above sticks.

[Blind side johnny]

15 hours ago, Spike said:

As a workington fan we should really be in the championship 

Don't be silly. This is clearly a SL thread, just like all of the rest.

[Oxford]

On 07/09/2019 at 07:31, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Salford,  Fans expect their club to be mid table early season, but then are often just happy to survive 

This may have been true in old money but since we went decimal and aligned the Watto (our prefered currency) with the € we now expect to challenge and compete with everyone and and win loads.

Please remember your passports when entering A J Bell Country where the exchange rate will be clearly displayed at all turnstiles and our border control people trained by Saintslass will turf anyone out that she has specified as belonging to the group she doesn't approve of and our stadium personel under the guidance of Parky will cater for your every need as well as escort any stray revisionist expansionista, TWP, Ottawa and NY fans and other reprobrates who may have managed to cross the security perimeter to a point where they they can do no damage.

 

[The Blues Ox]

On 07/09/2019 at 08:08, Eddie said:

Agreed. Widnes maybe think they should be in that bottom group too, and I imagine Bradford think in reality they should be in the middle group. 

Yet the reality is that both those teams are probably closer to going in to Championship 1 than they are to getting back in SL.

For Fax I see us among the top 2 or 3 part time teams in the country with little hope of ever returning to SL. Next season could be pivital in that we either regain a place in the playoffs or natural selection takes over and we slip further down the league.

[meast]

For Huddersfield, bottom end of SL, top end of Championship.

We are a small club with a proud history and a small but loyal fan base, that have punched above our weight for a number of years, no other club have come as far as we have in a short space of time, we were in the 3rd division 25 years ago, and were nowhere near been a top flight team and have only really been an established club in the top division for probably less than 15 years out of the last 50.

Which makes it all the more baffling when fans, including our own think we should be pulling in 10k every week and challenging for honours 

[meast]

16 hours ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Not true.  Warrington fans expect to win trophies, not challenge Wigan, Saints and Leeds .   We have the financial clout and have used it, so far bringing moderate success - 4 trophies, 2 hubcaps and 11 finals.   I say moderate success in terms of a return on money invested - I think we've underachieved in that regard because we still have to win the big one which is obviously what the fans want.

However, being a realist I cannot argue with what we've achieved as a club - in 15 years we've rekindled our place as a big club, own our ground and we compete in big finals and win trophies (just not THAT trophy).   Times are good and the club is healthy and self-sustaining, BUT we expect more.

 

I agree, Warrington should be winning everything now based on the finances and everything else available to them, they could probably buy most of the rest of SL, so no excuse for them anymore.

[Cheshire Setter]

4 hours ago, meast said:

I agree, Warrington should be winning everything now based on the finances and everything else available to them, they could probably buy most of the rest of SL, so no excuse for them anymore.

Possibly being unrealistic here, but if I was asked to quantify a successful return on investment I’d say a CC win approx. every 3 years, a SL trophy approx. every 4 years, a double every decade. Sounds pompous and selfish but I think that’s what I’d be happy with. I’d still have to moan about it so I can’t be classed as a casual RL fan of course. As for the league leaders’ shield, too much of a bitter taste as usually it means failure to win one of the big trophies.

Most importantly of all I’d want a champion team to be reflected in the attendances.   Warrington has huge potential by virtue of it’s location, and with the current marketing guys doing an amazing job I think a regular SL champion team could push the average gate towards 15k and occasional big games towards 18/19k (last two stadium corners to be filled in)   Depends on other local big teams maintaining their own away support of course. Warrington RLFC is the only big sporting club in the area (and I include Sale Sharks in that) and lots of untapped potential to the south - there are no major sports teams as far south as Crewe Alexandra and even they are small time these days. Can only dream!

[Hullfan]

Wherever you finish is we're you deserve to be. Silly thread close it

[Cheshire Setter]

1 minute ago, Hullfan said:

Wherever you finish is we're you deserve to be. Silly thread close it

You’re in the ‘Radford Out’ camp for sure then?

[Hullfan]

2 hours ago, Cheshire Setter said:

You’re in the ‘Radford Out’ camp for sure then?

10000%

[ELBOWSEYE]

8 hours ago, meast said:

I agree, Warrington should be winning everything now based on the finances and everything else available to them, they could probably buy most of the rest of SL, so no excuse for them anymore.

If it was an open market with no salary cap maybe . But these are the tools that level the top out. Small market for players ,with the NRL able to pay way more. And a smallish cap over here. Junior development is a seperate source and the area is swamped with good junior set ups in Wigan and Saints never mind the other local clubs.

[Eddie]

5 hours ago, Hullfan said:

Wherever you finish is we're you deserve to be. Silly thread close it

That is obviously true, but it’s not the mindset of the vast majority of fans. 

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Possibly being unrealistic here, but if I was asked to quantify a successful return on investment I’d say a CC win approx. every 3 years, a SL trophy approx. every 4 years, a double every decade. Sounds pompous and selfish but I think that’s what I’d be happy with. I’d still have to moan about it so I can’t be classed as a casual RL fan of course. As for the league leaders’ shield, too much of a bitter taste as usually it means failure to win one of the big trophies.

Most importantly of all I’d want a champion team to be reflected in the attendances.   Warrington has huge potential by virtue of it’s location, and with the current marketing guys doing an amazing job I think a regular SL champion team could push the average gate towards 15k and occasional big games towards 18/19k (last two stadium corners to be filled in)   Depends on other local big teams maintaining their own away support of course. Warrington RLFC is the only big sporting club in the area (and I include Sale Sharks in that) and lots of untapped potential to the south - there are no major sports teams as far south as Crewe Alexandra and even they are small time these days. Can only dream!

Do Wire get many fans in from south of the Mersey?

I have often wondered why Widnes is a bona fide RL town but Runcorn blatantly isn’t, despite there being just a bit of water separating them. If you get fans in from Knutsford, Northwich etc then good on you but have to admit I always assumed you don’t. 

[Cdd]

On 07/09/2019 at 19:43, Cheshire Setter said:

Not true.  Warrington fans expect to win trophies, not challenge Wigan, Saints and Leeds .   We have the financial clout and have used it, so far bringing moderate success - 4 trophies, 2 hubcaps and 11 finals.   I say moderate success in terms of a return on money invested - I think we've underachieved in that regard because we still have to win the big one which is obviously what the fans want.

However, being a realist I cannot argue with what we've achieved as a club - in 15 years we've rekindled our place as a big club, own our ground and we compete in big finals and win trophies (just not THAT trophy).   Times are good and the club is healthy and self-sustaining, BUT we expect more.

 

Warrington don’t product enough top quality home grown players to compete for trophies as regularly as the top club. For Warrington it’s all about recruitment. 

 

[Cheshire Setter]

47 minutes ago, Cdd said:

Warrington don’t product enough top quality home grown players to compete for trophies as regularly as the top club. For Warrington it’s all about recruitment. 

 

It’s a noticeable difference at the moment. Whilst we do actually produce home-grown players (there’s plenty in the squad) we don’t yet produce stars who excel in their position.   

However, the effects of the success of the last ten years is slowly bearing fruit with more local talent participating in RL, and that talent wanting to play for their successful home town team.

Seems part of Fitzpatrick and co’s plan with the recruitment of Price was to restructure the club from the bottom up, with a better transition from youth to first team and more input from the coaching team at all levels, NRL style.   Guess we’ll find out how that works out in the next few years.